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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Forfarian on Thursday 05 March 15 17:35 GMT (UK)
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John Waddell married Janet Cleland in 1829 in Scotland and they had eight of a family. John died between 1851 and 1854, and the widowed Janet was in Cadder with four of her children in 1861.
The eldest daughter Jane married in Scotland in 1850 and remained there. Two daughters died in infancy.
I know that William b 1840 and Janet b 1843 emigrated to New Zealand, married and had families there, and William was buried in the cemetery at Gore 1926. I don't know where Janet died, but it was in 1919, and her husband William Lockhart Gray died at Pukeuri in 1917. Also I found the following on Papers Past: At her brother's residence, Sylvan Bank, on the 23rd November, Catherine Waddell, youngest daughter of the late John Waddell, of Chryston, Lanarkshire, Scotland. Aged 27 years. [Southland Times, 24 November 1875]
That leaves John b 1832 and Grace b 1836 unaccounted for.
I see that a John Waddell died in New Zealand in 1895, aged 63. A Grace Waddell married William Frew in New Zealand in 1870, and a Grace Frew died in New Zealand in 1914 aged 78. A Janet Waddell, aged 68, died in New Zealand in 1871; could this be Janet Cleland, even though she would only have turned 64 in 1871?
So can anyone tell me where Sylvan Bank was? Also point me at a suitable place to find out when they emigrated?
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Hello
You could try looking here
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1609792
I wonder if Sylvan Bank was the name of the property
Cheers Janette
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Sylvan Bank Pharmacy is situated at 231 Yarrow Street, Richmond, Invercargill, New Zealand. Might be thereabouts. Lots of Scots settled in that area.
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https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1609792
Thank you. However they don't seem to be there.
I wonder if Sylvan Bank was the name of the property
I'm sure it was, but the newspaper announcement doesn't say the town or area where it is.
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Sylvan Bank Pharmacy is situated at 231 Yarrow Street, Richmond, Invercargill, New Zealand. Might be thereabouts. Lots of Scots settled in that area.
Thans, GR2.
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Just going to post Invercargill... do you have this cemetery record
Erected by William Waddell in the memory of his mother Janet Waddell relict of the late John Waddell ( late of Chryston Lanarkshire Scotland ) died 14 September 1871 age 69; also his sister Catherine Waddell died 23 November 1875 age 27years ,,burial Southland Invercargill
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He is an article which looks like the beginning of Sylvan Bank estate
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ODT18620411.2.17.5&srpos=1&e=-------100--1-byDA---2Sylvan+Bank--
Cheers Janette
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Another bit
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=WI18620516.2.12.3&srpos=8&e=-------100--1-byDA---2Sylvan+Bank--
Cheers Janette
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Just going to post Invercargill... do you have this cemetery record
Erected by William Waddell in the memory of his mother Janet Waddell relict of the late John Waddell ( late of Chryston Lanarkshire Scotland ) died 14 September 1871 age 69; also his sister Catherine Waddell died 23 November 1875 age 27years ,,burial Southland Invercargill
No, I didnt. I was just about to take a look at the Invercargill burials. Thank you very much indeed.
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Forfarin do you have access to Ancestry as there is a tree on with photo's of Janet Waddell and William Gray ...She died 21/3/1919 Frankfield Pukeuri
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Forfarin do you have access to Ancestry as there is a tree on with photo's of Janet Waddell and William Gray ...She died 21/3/1919 Frankfield Pukeuri
Thank you. I don't subscribe to Ancestry, but I can access it if I go to Aberdeen or Edinburgh. I'll add it to the list of things to check.
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Thank you also, Janette, for the references to Sylvan Bank.
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It looks like William was there in March 1868
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ST18680330.2.18.1&srpos=1&e=-------25--1-byDA---0waddell+%22sylvan+bank%22--
Cheers Janette
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More thanks, Janette.
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John Waddell born 1832 New Monkland did not emigrate to New Zealand.He married and lived in Glasgow.He was my husbands G G Grandfather.
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Thank you, Maggiemay.
Whom did he marry?
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John married Rachel(various spellings over time)McKay 28/11/1847 Barony Glebe( 622/0190 029).
John died 29/6/1883 (644/02 0543).
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Ah!
I had discounted that John Waddell because he was born in 1832, so was just 15 in 1847. So he got married at a very tender age indeed!
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There's something quite odd about John Waddell. Quite apart from apparently marrying at 15.
The 1883 death in Glasgow states plainly that John was 'about 53 years' and that his parents were John Waddell and Janet Clelland.
The 1851 census lists, at 75 Whitevale Street, John Waddell, 25, carter, with wife Ratchel, 26, daughter Ratchel, 2 and son Mathew, aged 1 month, All born in Glasgow. The 1871 lists the now much larger family at 7 Burgher Street. John is 45, dairyman and Rachel 44, and five children. Again, all are listed as born in Glasgow. (A birth in 1825/6 gives a much more likely age at marriage of about 22.)
The problem arises because the 1851 census also lists at Chryston, Cadder a family consisting of John Waddell, 50, farmer; wife Janet, 45; John, 17; Grace, 14; William, 10; Janet, 7; Catherine, 5, all born in New Monkland. By 1861 John Sr has died, and the family consists of the widowed Janet, 54, with Grace, 23; William, 20; Janet, 18; and Catherine, 15. These children exactly match the children of John Waddell and Janet Cleland, apart from John's age; he would have been 18, not 17, on census day 1851.
So there are two John Waddells in the 1851 census: one born in Glasgow 1825/6 and married to Rachel Mackay, and one born in New Monkland, son of John Waddell and Janet Cleland, still living with his parents in Cadder.
So were there two couples, both named John Waddell and Janet Clel(l)and, one of whom had a son John in Glasgow in 1825/6, and the other of whom had a son John in New Monkland in 1832?
Or did John Waddell and Janet Cleland have a son John, born in Glasgow before their marriage, and a second son John, born in New Monkland after their marriage? And if so why was he not living with his parents and siblings in 1841?
Or did William Waddell, son of John Waddell and Rachel Mackay, give the wrong names for his grandparents when he registered his father's death, and if so why did he think they were John Waddell and Janet Clelland?
Or is there some other explanation?
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I read and understood your reasoning in regards to John Waddell so decided to look again at
Scotlands People (spelling Clel(l)and) both ways. Only found 1 marriage for John Waddell and Janet Clel(l)and and also widened my timeline regarding the birth of John but it has not brought up anyone other than John born 1832 New Monkland with said parents.Looking back at my notes I too thought it odd marrying so young. I did have doubts but decided that Scotlands People were the most reliable source. IF the parentage is wrong on the death certificate I am not sure how that could be resolved. A point I would make is Janet emigrated in 1862, William in 1863 not sure about the others but John was not on the 1861 cencus with the rest of the family. If you can help I would be most grateful.
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Thanks, Maggiemay. I am mystified by this too. However I decided to send off for the death certificate of the John Waddell who died in New Zealand in 1895 aged 63 to see what it might tell me. I'll let you know when it arrives.
In the meantime it would be interesting to find the records of the family's travel to New Zealand.
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I wonder if this is the marriage
1865/4235 Jane McLellan to John Waddell
If they were illiterate maybe her surname was written as it sounded
Cheers Janette
My mistake
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This couple had the following children
1865/26212 Waddell Janet /Jane /John
1866/26177 Waddell Johan /Jane/John
1868/12999 Waddell John Nesbit /Jane /John
1871/14085 Waddell Nesbit /Jane /John
1873/21143 Waddell James Newton /Jane /John
1875/9939 Waddell Ida /Jane /John
Cheers Janette
My mistake again
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Well, the death certificate just arrived and it doesn't help! According to that, the John W who died in NZ in 1895 was a butcher, born in Glasgow, father unknown, stone mason, mother Sophia Waddell.
So I still have no explanation for the two John Waddells in the 1851 census.
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I had a look at some of my notes and found the name of the ship was Silistria which Janet Waddell And William Lockhart Gray sailed .They left from the Clyde on the 5/october1861 and landed New Zealand10/December 1861.I was given this information from a descendant of Janet Waddell and it.. can be seen in Otago Times (Papers Past). I cant find the name or date of the ship William sailed on but there is an article in The Otago Times(Papers Past) (21/August1880)which you may find interesting and gives the year he moved to New Zealand and what he got up to. Im sorry I cant seem to be able to paste the link to these articles in this post.As an aside,John Waddell sen.died 1851-1854 and I note his son John(if he is) did not produce any children in those years but did afterwards! Hope this helps
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Here is the passenger list for the Silistria
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/Silistra1862.htm
Cheers Janette
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Thanks very much for the passenger list,it gives the correct date of arrival whereas the copy from the Otago Times does not.
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As an aside,John Waddell sen.died 1851-1854 and I note his son John(if he is) did not produce any children in those years but did afterwards!
Thank you for this information.
Yes, I also noticed the gap in the records of children of John W and Rachel Mackay. There were Rachel in 1848/9 and then Matthew in 1850 (both baptisms missing from the Church of Scotland registers), then a gap until 1856. However I cannot rule out the possibility that there were a couple more - say in 1852 and 1854 - also missing from the C of S registers, who died before the 1861 census.
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Here is the passenger list for the Silistria
Great, thank you.
However this raises another question. The passenger manifest lists William Gray, Mrs Gray, and Child Gray. It does not show this child as being born at sea, though it does mark some others on the ship as born at sea. Therefore the child must have been born before 4 October 1861, when the Silistria set sail from Glasgow. This was only four days after the marriage of William Lockhart Gray and Janet Waddell on 30 September 1861. It is almost inconceivable that Janet would embark for New Zealand less than a week after bearing a child, so the child, whoever (s)he was, must have been born before the marriage of William and Janet. Yet there is no apparent candidate in the IGI. So who was this child, and where was (s)he born?
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I cant find the name or date of the ship William sailed on but there is an article in The Otago Times(Papers Past) (21/August1880)which you may find interesting and gives the year he moved to New Zealand and what he got up to.
Thank you - small amount of difficulty tracking it down as I didn't realise it was then called the Otago Witness! But it makes very interesting reading.