RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: Roy G on Monday 09 March 15 14:06 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find Joseph Hemmings, his wife Selina and son Joseph William Hemmings on the 1911 census.
I know
Joseph Hemmings: born ? c1886, died and buried Kingston 7 April 1914,
His wife Selina Emma nee Gillen (but marriage in Kingston in March qtr 1908 indexed as Gillian)
b Kingston c1890. (Remarried to John Moult in Kingston Sept qtr 1915) died Kingston 21 August 1958
Their son Joseph William Hemmings b Kingston 1908, died Kingston 1966. Married Kingston 1932 to Dorothy Lilian Barnes (b Kingston 1907 - d Kingston 1982)
As can be seen, their life pattern suggests they were strongly rooted in the Kingston upon Thames area, but having drawn a blank when looking for them in 1911, I am wondering if their surname has be mistranscribed on the census index.
My main aim is to identify the parents of Joseph senior and his place of birth, so most grateful for any leads.
Roy G
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The marriage will help with his father?
13th January 1908 at Christchurch, Surbiton Hill, Surrey
Joseph Hemmings, age 20, Bachelor, Labourer
Selina Gilliam, age 19, Spinster
Both of 18 The Retreat, Surbiton Hill
Fathers: William Hemming (Stoker) and Henry Gilliam, deceased (profession not known)
Witnesses: Albert James Hemmings and Lilian Edith Hemmings
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The witness Albert James Hemmings appears to have been born in Liverpool - birth reg West Derby Dec qtr 1881.
Marriage to Lilian Edith Nobbs was 5 Sep 1903 Norbiton - his father William David Hemmings, stoker.
Witnesses: James Brockwell, Sarah Ann Brockwell.
...and re these witnesses in turn:
James Brockwell married Sarah Ann Hemmings, All Saints Kingston, 28.3.1900.
Her father William Hemmings, gas stoker.
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Hi in 1901 the family are shown as HENNINGS on my site in Kingston upon Thames
Census ref RG13/665/134/28
Keyboard86
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In 1891 they're in Kirtlington, Oxfordshire (as Hemmings).
RG12/1170/29/21.
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No transcriptions - can anyone confirm that this is Joseph's Birth Index entry ? (the only chap with no middle name in a period around 1888)
Births Dec 1887
HEMMINGS Joseph Barton R. 6a 87
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Thanks so much for really giving me lots to look at regarding the Henmmings
Another interesting thing is a contrasting name for Selina's father. Being known as Henry contradicts my research so I need to dig a little deeper there as well. I have him as an Eli (or Ely) Gillen-Watson, born Kingston 1860, joined the army as Watson 1877 aka Gillen, spent time in India and Burmah before returning and being demobbed as Eli Gillen. I think I need to go back to the few censuses Eli was on to verify Eli and Henry were the same person before progressing.
Roy G
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No transcriptions - can anyone confirm that this is Joseph's Birth Index entry ? (the only chap with no middle name in a period around 1888)
Births Dec 1887
HEMMINGS Joseph Barton R. 6a 87
This is likely to be a different Joseph - baptised to Joseph & Eliza in Redfield, Glos. Born 9.9.1887, baptised 25.10.1887.
There is a possible late registration for "our" Joseph: Joseph Hemmings Sep qtr 1891 Abingdon, which matches the district where they were in the 1891 census.
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8)
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Another interesting thing is a contrasting name for Selina's father. Being known as Henry contradicts my research so I need to dig a little deeper there as well. I have him as an Eli (or Ely) Gillen-Watson, born Kingston 1860, joined the army as Watson 1877 aka Gillen, spent time in India and Burmah before returning and being demobbed as Eli Gillen. I think I need to go back to the few censuses Eli was on to verify Eli and Henry were the same person before progressing.
What was the basis for thinking her father was Eli - did this come from the 1915 marriage details?
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His wife Selina Emma nee Gillen (but marriage in Kingston in March qtr 1908 indexed as Gillian)
She signed the register clearly as Selina Gilliam.
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In an effort to sort the Eli issue out, I went back to a previous Rootschat entry of mine about the same guy. It was written so long ago, that I had almost forgotten it. I now need to comprehend it once again because Eli did so much ducking and diving with his name and relationships, the mental agility I had to understand it then, is no longer with me.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=682557.msg5270027#msg5270027
Roy G
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I see that Eli Gillen did not die until 1918 (in Kingston) - some 10 years after Selina Gilliam's marriage.
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Re. What was the basis for thinking her (Selina's) father was Eli - did this come from the 1915 marriage details?
No, The 1901 census lists Eli Gillen Head b1861, Mary A Gillen Wife b 1867, Selina E Gillen Daughter b 1891, Frances E Gillen Daughter b1892, Lilian K Gillen Daughter 1897.
The same census has no entries in Kingston for a Selina Gillian or Gilliam.
Yes the date of Eli death (1918) is correct, it also appears on his army record. Being a reservist, he was reconscripted for WW1, but taken off the troopship because of ill health, which doctors thought was TB. He died in 1918 after 2 years of hospitalisation.
Roy G
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Yes I saw that. So if Selina was his daughter it would be extremely odd for her not only to get her father's name wrong on her 1908 marriage but also to say that he was deceased.
Still, stranger things have happened, I suppose!
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Maybe Eli didn't give his consent to the marriage?
So she told a little white lie about her father's name?! :-\
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Maybe Eli didn't give his consent to the marriage?
So she told a little white lie about her father's name?! :-\
Quite possible. If the child seen in the censuses is the right one she was 5mo old in the 1891 census, so born autumn 1890. She'd have been 17 rather than 19 on marriage in Jan 1908.
So a white lie on the age as well - didn't think to bump it up to 21!
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Re The 1901 census lists Eli Gillen Head b1861, Mary A Gillen Wife b 1867, Selina E Gillen Daughter b 1891, Frances E Gillen Daughter b1892, Lilian K Gillen Daughter 1897.
The same census has no entries in Kingston for a Selina Gillian or Gilliam.
The only alternative thought I have to explain the marriage entry is that during Eli's military service in India, the children's mother had a live in lover called Henry, who died before Eli's return. On his return, Eli accepted all her children as his own for they already had his surname.
Getting like a soap opera isnt it.
Roy G
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I wondered about an interloper Henry too, but according to a summary on your other thread Eli was not in India when Selina would have been conceived, but serving on the "Home" front (8/11/1888 - 7/10/1890).
However, it's not clear how he could have fathered Rachel b 1885 if he was in India 30/12/1880 - 7/11/1888 as the same summary also states. Is there a record of any home leave in the military records?
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Perhaps "Henry" was Henry COIT, the lawful husband of Mary Ann?
(as per your other thread)
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re Henry Coit,
That's what I was thinking.
Supplementary (before I put it to a wider Rootschat audience)
When I was initially researching my Gillens of Kingston some 15 years ago, a lot of useful family data was put onto the Internet by Kingston University. I copied all the Gillen references in their link: http://localhistory.kingston.ac.uk/database/LocalHistoryForm.asp
and related much of my research to it.
Kingston university ID nos, Names & Years of Birth
1162 William Gilholm 1835 1325 George Gilholm 1825 4467 Ann Gulhun 1832
7631 George Gilham 1821 7632 Elizabeth Gilham 1826 7633 George Gilham 1846
7634 John C Gilham 1850 12798 Ann Gillham 1816 13664 William Gillin 1819
13665 Rachel Gillin 1826 13666 William Gillin 1844 13667 Frances Gillin 1851
13668 Selina Gillan 13669 Ely Gillin 1861 16633 Robert Gallon 1846
24723 Wiliam Gilliam 1824 24724 Louise Gilliam 1824 48760 Eliz Gillam 1852
50092 Edward S. GILLMAN 1858 53274 Rachel GILLAN 1876 53333 William GILLAM 1814
53334 Rachel GILLAM 1815 62620 Louisa GALLIAN 1856 62621 Emily GALLIAN 1858
64841 Richard GILLHAM 1842 68104 Mary GALLIN 1801 80675 William Gillen 1841
80676 Sarah Gillen 1838 80677 Elizabeth Gillen 1873 80678 Louisa Gillen 1876
80679 Selina Gillem 80680 Florence Gillen 1889 86967 Walter Gillham 1855
86968 Mary Gillham 1861 87912 Stephen Gillham 1872 88975 Thomas Gilliman 1821
90222 Stephen Gillham 1839 90223 Elizabeth Gillham 1838 90224 Maud Gillham 1872
90225 Lily Gillham 1877 93866 Rachel Gillan 1818 94008 John Gillen 1818
95994 William C Gilman 1852 95995 Alice Gilman 1852 95996 Florence Gilman 1878
95997 Louis Gilman 1880 95998 Herbert Gilman 1881 95999 George Gilman 1882
96000 Charlotte Gilman 1885 96001 Mary Gilman 1886 96002 Samuel j Gilman 1888
96003 Rose E Gilman 1890 98824 Eli Gillam 1861 98825 Mary A Gillam 1867
98826 Saline E? Gillam 1891
Unfortunately their website is no longer active. Do you know if they have just given it a new IP address or have they sold it on to a group that now charges for access?
Roy