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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: Torwoodlee on Saturday 14 March 15 23:09 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I am looking for Mary and Jane Fitzpatrick, sisters, both born in Prescot, Lancashire. I found them on the immigration passenger list on the 10th of May 1899, travelling together from Liverpool to New York on a ship called Cymric. They were both listed as domestic servants, aged 20.
Mary's full name is Mary Ellen.
They were both adopted after their mother was murdered by her husband in 1881 and ended up living with a woman named Mary Ann Ronchetti. Mrs Ronchetti adopted them and they lived in Parr, St Helens, Lancashire according to the 1891 census.
I'd like to know if it is possible to find out what happened to Mary and Jane. Is there any way of tracing them? If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.
Borderslass :)
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Hi Borderslass
The 1891 Census, where the Fitzpatrick girls are with Mary Ann Ronchetti (nee Mary Ann Therese REDMOND)....RG12 /Piece 3023 / Folio /123 /Pg32
It says:
Relative Adopted Dau: Mary ADAMS 17, single
(Ditto) : Lydie FITZPATRICK 12,
(Ditto) : Jane FITZPATRICK 11
All 3 born Prescot, Lanc.
Just checking - the enumerator did appear to have a bit of bother with that census!?
Just been reading the newspaper reports of the death of their mother, very traumatic! And amazed the father only then got 15 years for manslaughter!
The girls on the Cymric in 1899,
They were both heading to NY, but to different address.
Mary to: 514W 54th St, to ------- (illegible)
Janey to: 309 E? 21st St, to sister
Last Address: Co. -----? (an Irish County?)
Cheers
AMBLY
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Is this the family in the 1881 census transcribed as Fitspatrick address 3 Browns Street Prescot Lancashire
James 28 general labourer , Margret 28, James 6, Margaret 4, Mary E 2, Jane 1 all born Prescot
was Margaret's maiden name Black ?
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Thank you for your help. Rosie, yes, that is the correct family in the 1881 census. We have found the eldest daughter Margaret but we haven't found James as of yet.
Thank you Ambly for your information; could you please tell me where you found them once they arrived in New York? Is it possible to have a copy or a link to the documentation which shows the information that you found?
You are correct about the 1891 census as well, it wasn't the best of transcriptions by the enumerator.
I'm a bit confused with the last address info that you have written; they were never in Ireland; their grandparents were the ones who came to Lancashire from Ireland.
Borderslass :)
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On the record it states they were Irish ?
Mary Fizpatrick born about 1879 age 20 departure Liverpool
Arrival Date 19/5/1899
Ship Cymric
What was the connection to Mary Ann Ronchetti ?
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There is a Mary Ellen Fitzpatrick age 11 born Liverpool an inmate in the Liverpool Industrial School
Civil Parish Kirkdale
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Wondering if the last residence was just "ditto" from the chap above Rosie - possible do you think ???
Sandra
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Mary Ann Ronchetti adopted the girls in 1881 after the death of their mother and their father being sent to prison. The girls were both born in Prescot, Lancashire (neither were born in Liverpool).
There is absolutely no record of deaths for these girls nor marriages and they both kept the name of Fitzpatrick ten years later so it is very unlikely that they changed their names.
I believe that there was an assumption made that the girls were Irish on the ship's register since their name was Fitzpatrick. Is there any way that I may be able to see these records?
Thank you again for your help
Borderslass :)
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If you would like to send me a personal message with your e-mail address - can help with passenger list.
Cheers
Sandra
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Thank you very much Sandra. We would like to try and trace them in America as well (if possible). We're also wondering if their elder brother James ended up in America as we have yet to find him. Incidentally, the year that the girls went to America coincided with one of their sisters leaving Prescot. Their youngest brother lived with their grandmother and at this time, he changed his surname to his maternal name of Black. It would be around this time that their father may have been released from prison....interesting in the timing of these events.
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If you would like to send me a personal message with your e-mail address - can help with passenger list.
Cheers
Sandra
Thanks Sandra was just going to suggest that ;)
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Not finding them at all. PL should be with you now.
Sandra ;)
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What was the last sighting you had for James ? was the grandparents Bernard and Ellen
There is a record for a Margaret Fitzpatrick b1879 departure Liverpool arrival date 14/10/1899 Ship Lucania said she was going to a brother ...Is the the same record you mentioned in previous post ..Sorry for all the questions but the more information we have the better
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Didn't realise there was another thread - well done Rosie.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=686678.0
Sandra
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Have you traced the sister Margaret mentioned on the 1881 Census ?
Sandra
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Sandra the only one that I could see was for a Margaret Fitzpatrick born 1880 age 11 ( birth date out } was in 1891 pupil ( institutional ) ..Civil Parish Whitford Flintshire Wales ...Not having much luck finding them ???
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No, same here Rosie. if Janey was going to a sister - I wondered if it could have been Margaret but by that stage she could have been married (if it was her ???)
Sandra
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Borderlass do you have a birth date for James ...Just came across this record for Soldiers in Canada for a James Fitzpatrick born 4 June 1874 Prescot Lancashire address Ottawa Canada lists his sister Mary Fitzpatrick as his next of kin ..Religion Roman Catholic occupation Labourer not married age 41 years 9 months ...Date of the record January 10 th 1916
Was it Mary Ellen or Mary Elizabeth Fitzpatrick as I noticed on the duplicate post it was Mary Elizabeth
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What a find Rosie ;D ;D
Sounds very promising to me!:
I just saw yr reply as I was abt to post the following; still posting:
They have common names…..the fact your girls were born in England would actually set them apart somewhat in the US Census, if they were in the New York area in 1900 and still as FITZPATRICK - but that's only if they told the truth on census (or their employer's did).
There is no way to tell if these two young women on the Cymric are yours.
In fact the passenger manifest from their arrival in New York - going to a sister, last residence Ireland - points to it not being them. If only we could find the 1900 Census for the address' in New York given on that manifest (I believe both address' are in Manhattan - Mary's on the Hudson side, Janey's on the East River side) but I don't know if it is possible?
Though he is recorded as FITZPATRICK in the 1891 & 1901 Census, if the youngest brother Peter in practice, changed to that of his mother's maiden name BLACK , it's entirely possible the girls did something similar once they were old enough to decide and put such a change into practice.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651420.0
This topic tells that the sister Margaret married William BRENNAN (BRANNAN on the Index) in Prescot in (June Qtr) 1901 and that she was the lass in the school in Wales in 1891. Margaret was their only sister.
Who were the witness' to her marriage?
Also, the US Census 1900 recorded the Month and Year of a person's birth. As with any Census, this information could be incorrectly recorded - but what was the exact Birth-dates of both Mary Ellen and Jane (and James, since you're also looking for him)?
Cheers
AMBLY
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There's a Peter LOUGHRAN born 1866 (mother Mary) listed on the 1900 census for the 309 East 21st
address.
Doesn't help at all. :)
Maureen
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Thanks Ambly for the link to previous post on this family I did see a Peter Fitzpatrick on the census forms with his grandmother and wondered if this was the same family ...The Margaret as mentioned on previous posts is the one in Wales 1891 ... :)
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Thank you again! Here is some further info and questions:
Rosie, I believe you have found James Fitzpatrick! There was only one James born in Prescot in the June Qtr of 1874. Mary Elizabeth Fitzpatrick was his sister (I apologise for calling her Mary Ellen…another relative from the tree!) May I ask how we can see a copy of the info about James in Canada? We have a world subscription for FindMyPast but only one for the UK on Ancestry. FindMyPast is difficult to navigate since they made the changes last year!
We already knew about Margaret going to the girls’ home in Wales, apparently it was not a very nice place. She was the only one who returned to Prescot and stayed there and married William Brennan.
Ambly, Peter Fitzpatrick (Black) was the youngest of the children, a baby when his mother died. He was the only child taken in by a blood relative. Peter most likely changed his name because his mother was killed by his father, he lived with his maternal grandmother and his father was possibly released from prison at that point.
The Fitzpatrick girls in question were with the Ronchetti family ten years after their mother died and still kept their surname of Fitzpatrick, in fact, all of the family kept that name except for Peter (understandable for him since he lived with his deceased mother’s mother). He would not have remembered his parents as he was a baby when the murder occurred.
Mary Elizabeth was born in the June Qtr of 1878 and Jane was born December Qtr 1879. We don’t have any doubts that the girls on the ship were from our Fitzpatrick family. There is no trace of the girls in the UK after the 1891 census. We believe the transcription of them being born in Ireland is a mistake.
Borderslass :)
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Hi Borderslass,
Library and Archives Canada has James' attestion papers, and you can see them here
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01eyi/
As Rosie mentioned his papers signed Jan/1916. He gives his sister as next of kin, and
her address is....Prescot, England.
They are in the process of digitizing all WW1 service files, they should be complete by
early 2016. You will be able to view his service file for free when it is completed. I think they
are on the letter C at the moment.
Rosie....nice find. :)
Cheers,
DB
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I've read James's attestation papers, looking forward to seeing his service records!
But now there is a further question. I have to concede, I now believe that the Fitzpatrick girls who were on that ship to America may not be the ones I am looking for. On James Fitzpatrick's Canadian WW1 Attestation papers, he lists his sister, Mary Fitzpatrick from Prescot as his next of kin. The papers were written in 1916 so this would suggest that Mary was still in Prescot at that time. However, we can not find her on the 1911 census. The last time we see her is with the Ronchetti family in 1891. The mystery is growing!
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Might be a possible record for James Fitzpatrick
Jas Fitzpatrick date of birth 1874 age 10 departure Liverpool arrival date 27/6/1884 Vancouver Port Quebec .....Writing hard to make out Catholic //? Party then Ottawa
James Fitzpatrick b 1874 arrival 1884 Quebec Canada
Home Children Passenger list ...Still not seeing the girls
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Hi,
Rosie, I'd just found the same record for the ship 'Vancouver' It looked a bit like "Catholic Lang Party", perhaps the name of the 'chaperone' on the voyage?
I had first found this:
1891 CENSUS CANADA: E. Huntly, North Lanark, Ontario
Jas FITZPATRICK 17, Domestic, b England, Roman Catholic, parents b England
In household of John ROWAN 50, Farmer and his wife & 2 children
Then find - he's listed on this website:
http://www.ottawavalleyirish.com/2013/05/james-fitzpatrick-home-child.html
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi,
From A*, there is this
US and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index 1500-1900's
James Fitzpatrick b. abt 1874, arrival year 1884, age 10
Shearon Jim "Home Children Research Continues 'Home Children' Passenger List for the
year 1884" In Anglo Celtic Roots (British Family History Society of Greater Ottawa)
vol. 3:4 (Fall 1997), pp 12, 22-26, page 26.
You can see the passenger list that Rosie and Ambly found here, he is on page 4.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01eym/
Cheers,
DB
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There's a Peter LOUGHRAN born 1866 (mother Mary) listed on the 1900 census for the 309 East 21st address.
Wow, just realised you'd found the address Maureen! ;D Just wanted to acknowledge that! We've gotten all excited in the interim, with James. What a shame there was no Janey there!
Cheers
AMBLY
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Yes did find that census in 1891 but was not sure you have just confirmed Ambly don't see him in later census forms do you ?
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There's a Peter LOUGHRAN born 1866 (mother Mary) listed on the 1900 census for the 309 East 21st address.
Wow, just realised you'd found the address Maureen! ;D Just wanted to acknowledge that! We've gotten all excited in the interim, with James. What a shame there was no Janey there!
Cheers
AMBLY
;D ;D ;D
No problem,Ambly. Just glad that James has been sighted. :)
Maureen
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Hi,
In reference to:
Shearon Jim "Home Children Research Continues 'Home Children' Passenger List for the
year 1884" In Anglo Celtic Roots (British Family History Society of Greater Ottawa)
vol. 3:4 (Fall 1997), pp 12, 22-26, page 26.
This is the reference,
BIFHSGO (British Isles Family History Society of Greater Ottawa) publishes a quarterly
called Anglo Celtic Roots....James is mentioned in that quarterly Fall 1997 page 26,
SS Vancouver 1884 details: Catholic Emmigration Society to Ottawa.
http://www.bifhsgo.ca/clist.php?nm=108
Cheers,
DB
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All these poor children sent away so sad :'(
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Way too sad :'( Rosie.
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I wondered if he was one of he children sent to Canada and now it seems like it's confirmed!
Thank you Rosie and everyone for your continued help ;D
I was trying to find James in the 1901 census but the only one I could find with an age close to him was in Nipissing Ontario but it states that he was Irish. It's possible it was him as the enumerator may have assumed he was born there because of his surname. Nipissing is just over an hour from Parry Sound where he enlisted so it isn't completely out of the question. Ottawa, where he said he lived when he enlisted in 1916 is four hours away from Nipissing. I just wish I could find him in the 1911 census. I did not see a death for him yet from WW1 so he may have survived. :)
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Yes not seeing him in later census forms or marriage /death ??? Wonder if he ever found his way back home ....still no luck with the girls pity it did not give an address for his next of kin Mary
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Hi again Rosie,
Although he listed Mary, his younger sister, as his next of kin, the last time he would have seen her would have been around 1881. Maybe it was the first sibling who came to mind who he remembered. Perhaps if he fought in Europe, he may have returned to England? I could not find a death for him on the CWGC. It seems that we have found him and now lost him again :'(
As for the girls, Mary Elizabeth and Jane, I'm starting to wonder again if they were the girls who went to America who Ambly found. There is absolutely no trace of them again in England after 1891.
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Hi Borderlass I also thought the same as his next of Kin Mary would he have still been in contact with her ??? And like you thought he might have remained in England maybe we should look more in to the adopted mother when she died to see who registered the death ...I don't know if there is any way of checking in Canada about James ..Maybe worth posting on the Canada board to see if some one can help ...Have you checked out a marriage for the other brother Peter to see who the witnesses were ...Is this Peter on the later census in Bolton ?
Rosie
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Ambly don't see him in later census forms do you ?
Same here :( can't find any sign of him either - also looked at border crossings US/CANADA, manifests to and from UK, even draft registrations in US & UK (he wouldn't be the first to attest in more than one country), death registrations in some of the Canada Provinces online (BC, Manitoba, NZ....not a sausage !
New Brunswick
http://archives.gnb.ca/Search/VISSE/default.aspx?culture=en-CA
British Columbia
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Genealogy/basicSearch
Manitoba
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Genealogy/basicSearch
Nova Scotia
https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/
http://www.canadagenweb.org/
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi,
Returning troops on the ship the Olympic February 13, 1918 from Liverpool to Halifax, N.S
via New York
Fitzpatrick, James, Service #657168 (matches his attestation papers)
Residence Parry Sound, dependant sister! ???
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01eyz/
Cheers,
DB
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Good find dbreez :) :)
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Fabulous DB! Dependent sister?! I wonder if it is Mary (Elizabeth) who he listed as his next of kin.
So it seems that he remained in Canada. It is nice that so many of you are interested in this story. It is sad about the circumstances of how and why the children were separated.
Rosie, Peter was in Bolton on the 1911 census. :)
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Hi,
Thanks Rosie and Borderlass ;D ....just lucky.
When his service file comes along, there may be more information as he may have
allotted some of his wages to this dependent. I've seen service files where they allot
wages to family members. It gives the family member's address and the bank details.
So...hurry up Library and Archives Canada and digitize his file. :)
Borderlass...this is the main search page at LAC, you can go back in the coming months
and just add his name, and with fingers crossed ;D, hope to see his file.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ez1/
Cheers,
DB
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Thanks DB, I hope it is published soon! I can not find him at all after the war now; it is quite a mystery! They are an elusive group!
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Hi BordersLass,
They are certainly an elusive bunch. ???
Since James has been mentioned by British Isles Family History of Greater Ottawa,
it might be worth emailing them an inquiry about James. From their website "Assisted
countless Canadian Home Children families to access their personal files" Contact details
for them, bottom left side of the page.
http://www.bifhsgo.ca/cpage.php?pt=4
And since Parry Sound has been mentioned, perhaps the Parry Sound Library, left side,
click on contact details.
http://www.parrysoundlibrary.ca/Index.php
Cheers,
DB
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Along with my continuous search I'll also give that a try DB.
Thank you :)