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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: richarde1979 on Thursday 19 March 15 15:47 GMT (UK)
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William Smith, son of Aaron Smith 'Hawker' and Cordelia privately baptised at Mitcham, Surrey on 3rd August 1860.
George Smith son of Aaron Smith 'Gipsey' and Cordelia privately baptised at St Andrew, Ham, Surrey on 20th February 1863.
Sampson Smith, son of Aaron Smith 'Tinman' and Cordlelia, baptised at West Croydon, Surrey on 7th May 1865.
Edward Cooper, son of Aaron Cooper 'Tinman' and Cordelia baptised at Esher, Surrey 28th July 1867
Henrietta Smith, daughter of Aaron Smith 'Brazier' and Cordelia. born 26th December 1869, baptised 16th January 1870 Croydon, Surrey,
Thomas Smith, son of Aaron Smith and Cordelia 'Travellers' baptised at Loncross, Surrey on 16th June 1872 (*Note: This was a joint baptism with Joseph Smith, son of Jonathan Smith and Martha 'Travellers'.)
Jessie Smith, son of Aaron Smith 'Tinman' and Cordelia baptised at West Croydon, Surrey in 20th October 1878.
Delilah Smith, daughter of Aaron Smith 'Tin Maker and Brazier' and Cordelia baptised at Shepperton, Middlesex on 28th AUgust 1881
I am researching the above couple. I have them on the 1871 Census and the 1911:
1871 Census Surmans Lane, Hampton, Kingston, Surrey (*next to Job Parker, 28, Chair maker and wife Lementaney Carey, 22)
Aron Smith, 35, Chair maker, born Lemminge, Berks
Cordelia Smith, 30, wife, born Greenwich, Surrey
William Smith, 16, son assists his father, Mitcham, Surrey
George Smith, 8, son, Croydon, Surrey
Samuel Smith, 6, son, Croydon, Surrey
Edward Smith, 4, son Esher, Surrey
Harriet Smith, 1, dau, Croydon, Surrey
1911 Census Broad Lane, Walton on Thames, Surrey (*next to Albert Sines, 48 greengrocer and wife Dinah Sines, 45 )
Aron Smith, Head, 76 , grinder {Own account}, born Sonning, Berks,
Kodallea Smith, Wife, 74 [married 54 years, 16 children, 6 alive, 10 dead] born Ham Green, Surrey.
Ernest Smith, gson, 12, born Thame, Oxfordshire
Edward Brown, Lodger, 29, Labourer, born Surrey.
Marriage Cert: Aaron Smith, 74, Bachelor, Scissors Grinder, of Broad Lane, Walton on Thames, son of John Smith [deceased] Scissors Grinder, and Cordelia Cooper, 73, Spinster, Hawker, of Broad Lane, Walton on Thames, daughter of Edward Cooper [deceased] hawker married at St Mary's, Walton on Thames by banns 30th November 1908, both made mark in register, witnessed by John Sines and Dinah Sines
I am having trouble finding them on any other censuses or tracing them back further, particularly Aaron. The South Bucks Free Press 18th June 1859 reports that Tubal Ancoru Smith and Aaron Smith, (gipsies) were charged by Sergeant Osborne, with encamping on a highway in the parish of Chesham, on the 10th inst and were discharged on promising not to offfend again.
This may be Aaron, husband of Cordelia Cooper, but certainly he wasn't the only Gypsy Aaron Smith then knocking about i.e:
Aaron Smith and Alice Smith ’Travellers’ married at Hillmorton, Warwickshire July 1804
Aaron Smith, son of Arthur Smith and Karnation [Lee] ‘Travellers’, born 22nd June, baptised at Ropley Hampshire 29th June 1807.
Aaron Smith, son of Cain Smith and Trinity [Smith]baptised at Rushton, Northampton on 25th December 1814.
I can find no further info on Tubal Ancora Smith either, but suspect there might be a link somewhere there with Johnny Ancorn Smith as per Eric Trudgill and Anne-Marie Ford's website http://www.gypsygenealogy.com/showarticle.php?article_id=11
Any help identifying Aaron's family links further much appreciated
Richard
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In addition to above I think this is probably his brothers Jonathan and Jessie Smith:
1871 Census Market Place, Wokingham, Berkshire
Jonathan Smith, 56, Travelling innkeeper and Grinder, born in Dummer, Hampshire
Martha Smith, 42, wife, Travelling Pedlar, born Colnbroook, Buckinghamshire
Carnation Smith, 15, daughter, Travelling Pedlar, born Hale, Surrey
Jehanna Smith, 11, daughter, Tramp, born Sherfield, Hampshire
Brittania Smith, 9, daughter, Tramp, born Greywell, Hampshire
Arthur Smith, 8, son, Travelling Pedlar, born Greywell, Hampshire
Siberana Smith, 3, daughter, Tramp, born Bramley, Hampshire
Joseph Smith, 6 months, born Odiham, Hampshire
Jesse Smith, 54, brother, Travelling tinker and Chair Bottomer, born Harwell, Berkshire
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Update on this I think Tubal Ancora Smith is actually Jubal Smith, born 1814 in Wiltshire son of Johnny Ancorn Smith and Agrippina Smith:
Jubal Smith, son of Gripy Smith, baptised at Wroughton, Wiltshire 13th July 1814
1861 Bristol, Gloucestershire
Jubal Smith, 47, Hawker, born Wranton, Wiltshire
Mary Smith, 43, wife, born Fredenton, Warwickshire
Abina Smith, 12, son born Sodmarton, Oxfordshire
Alfred Smith, 18, son born Shipton, Oxfordshire
Hannah Smith,14, dau, born High Littleton, Somerset
Jesse Smith, 2, son, Broadway, Staffordshire
Sophia Smith, 7, daugh, Netherton, Staffordshire
22 August 1883: Marion Jane Smith, wife of Jubal Smith, grinder, no home, Charged with being drunk at Warwickshire.
I'm now inclined to think the Aaron Smith arrested with him at Chesham in 1859 is the same man I am researching, because of the repetition of the name Jesse as a male name in both families. The obvious assumption would be that John Smith, scissor grinder, who Aaron names on his marriage as father is Johnny Ancorn Smith, and he and Jubal are brothers, but there is a good twenty years or more between their births, so I am not altogether convinced.
To complicate further, there is a John Smith and Priscilla James baptising children around the right time to be Aaron, Jonathan and Jesse's parents and in the right counties Berkshire and Hampshire:
Mary Smith, 'Born in the lane', daughter of John Smith 'Traveller' and Priscilla baptised 14th Janaury 1824 at Arborfield Berkshire
Eliza Smith, daughter of John Smith & Priscilla James 'Travellers' baptised at Stratfield Saye, Hampshire on 18th November 1832.
Rhoda Anne Smith, daughter of John Smith and Priscilla 'Travellers' baptised at Finchampstead, Berkshire on 27th July 1834.
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Hi through my research I have come across an Edward & Henrietta Cooper who appear in the 1871 census at Pawsons Rd Croydon Edward is 63 & Henrietta 60 both basketmakers they are visiting a Joseph Smith & his family. They also turn up on Mitcham Common in 1881 I wondedered whether they could be Cordelias parents?
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Thanks Lelu, very helpful, it looks like you are on the money there, as using your info I have been able to find Cordelia's baptism
Cordelia Cooper, aged 17, daughter of Werdon and Henrietta Cooper 'Gipsy' baptised 2nd June 1858 St Andrew, Ham, Surrey
jointly baptised with:
Josiah Smith, age 22, son of Werdon and Henrietta Smith 'Gipsy'
A day earlier 1st June 1858 four children were baptised there together to Gypsy couples including:
Cinderella Cooper, born 16th July 1852, daughter of Edward and Henrietta Cooper 'Gipsy'
Looks like all three are the same couple, and this points towards Henrietta being a Smith, so Cordelia's marriage with Aaron Smith might have been a cousin pairing.
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Hello Richard, your greengrocers, Albert and Dinah Sines, of Broad lane Walton on Thames in Surrey, are my great great grandparents. Their youngest daughter, Cordelia, was my great granny. She married a Jimmy Brazil from Walton on Thames (field common) my great granny was born on the 15th of Febuary 1908.
Cordelia and Jimmy Brazil had 7 children, only one is still alive. His name is Albert Brazil, he was a twin but his twin (billy) died at birth and is buried in Teddington cemetery, as are my great granny Cordelia and 5 of her children, one of them being my granny June.
It would be great if you could give me anymore information about Dinah and Albert Sines. I know Dinah was a Rawlings before she married and her mothers name was Esther.
Many thanks!!!!!!!
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Hello Searcher 1998 great to find someone else linked to the same set of families. My interest is through Job Parker and Lemontany Carey, and their relatives Burdens, Howards, Whites, Ayres who lived around Walton on Thames in the early 20th century. I'm sure they and the Sines all link up to these Cooper and Smiths somehow but still trying to untangle exact details on that!
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I know they are related to the Coopers somewhere along the line but I'm not sure.
My uncle has done an extensive search and knows more than me. I'm still waiting on more from him.
Have you got any old photos?
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Hi Richard, my uncle told me that Ruthy Sines (my great granny's sister) married a George Parker from that same area. Broad road/lane. Walton upon Thames.
My great grannys siblings were: Mary, Priscilla, Rosie, Ruthy, Arthur, Jobie, and "Cocker"? (Not sure of Cockers real name) and I think out of the boys only Arthur ever married, but I don't know who to. There was also another brother (John) but he died either at birth or not long after.
Rosie married Henry Ripley, Mary married Mark Sines (a cousin), Cordelia, my great granny, married James Brazil, and Priscilla married Walter Honeyball.
Your Albert Sines (my great great grandfather), had brothers called, Samuel, Benjamin, John and James. Samuel Sines is buried with Albert and Dinah Sines at Walton upon Thames. As far as I know he had a son and a daughter, Samuel and Esther. Samuel Snr lived at Chertsey near St Peters Hospital with his wife and children until his wife passed away and he moved back to Molsey with his children. He passed away at the age of 58.
You have my great great granny Dinah Sines and her brother in law John Sines as witnesses at the wedding of an Aaron Smith.
Other names of interest are: Rawlins (not sure about the spelling)
Hughs, Ball, Darby, Williams, Hunt and Jones.
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Hi Charmaine.
I have downloaded the marriage certificate for Ruth and George. 23rd June 1919 at East Molesey, Surrey. He is down as 24 a private in the army, father Frederick Parker, Dealer. Ruth is down as 21, father Albert Sines, Dealer, (deceased).
I'll have to look and see if Fred links up to Job Parker and Lemontaney Carey. They had ten children I know of born over twenty five years 1869-1894, two sons, eight daughters, but I don't think they had a Fred.
I have been looking into the Brazils though, and it looks as if George Brazil and William Brazil who married Violet Burden and Matilda Sayers (1st cousins, grandaughters of Job and Lemontany) were both brothers of your great grandfather James Brazil who married Cordelia Sines. Their parents were William Brazil and Charlotte Bury.
The Brazils can bet traced well back to the 1750s as travellers. The Sines I'm having more of a struggle with tracking back, but will keep looking:
James Brazil (1905-1983)+Cordelia Sines (1908-1988) married 1929 Surrey
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William Brazil (1881-1964)+ Charlotte Bury (1880-1956)
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Matthew Brazil (1845-1919) licensed hawker +Selina Collins (1848-1894)
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John Brazil (1819-1883) a tinman and travelling hawker + Priscilla Harlet (1818-)
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William Brazil, (1795-1871) a travelling mat maker and chair turner, +Jane (c.1786-1869)
born Penshurst, Kent
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John Brazil (1768) traveller + Hannah Jones married 1788 Herstmonceaux, Sussex
born Penshurst, Kent
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William Brazil traveller (c.1745) and Ann
William and Jane Brazil are on the 1841 census camped with two elderly Jones and Smith women who must be relatives of some sort I'd think.
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Wow that's BRILLIANT. Thank you so much!! The are travellers as well. I'll send you everything I get when my uncle sends it through to me. Thanks again!!!!!!!
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No problem at all Charmaine. Just wish I could figure out the Cooper connection to these families. Job and Lemontaney are camped with Aaron Smith and Cordelia Cooper in 1871 at Surmans Lane, in 1901 they are camped at Epsom with a John and Amy Cooper, in 1911 they are camped at West Horsely common with a Henry and Amy Cooper . All the other families with them are married into the Coopers, i.e Junix, Marneys, Vinsons. Must be a connection there...but can't quite figure it out. Maybe your uncle will have some idea.
I have figured out the Ruth Sines connection though. Her husband George was the son of Frederick Parker born 1851 at Colnbrook, Bucks. Fred was Job's younger cousin, their fathers Mark Parker (1819-1866)and John Parker (b.1822 circa) were brothers. Job's wife Lemontaney Carey was also baptised at Colnbrook in 1849. A lot of the family still live round that way today. These families seems to have travelled regularly from that area in Berkshire to Surrey and back again. Again maybe because of the link to the Coopers, there seems to have been a lot of Coopers based around Windsor.
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Very interesting, thank you for your help.
I think you're going to have a bit of trouble tracing your Coopers. There's thousands of them up and down the country and many still in the colnbrook/Windsor area. And many share the same first names too. Same with the Smiths, unfortunately.
I'm goin to ask someone (a Cooper) about your people who you're searching for. This lady was a Cooper before she married a Summers. Her husbands brother (Alfie Summers aka Chick) married my great aunt, Margaret Brazil (Cordelia and Jimmys daughter). Sadly they have all passed away now, all except for the Cooper lady who is now in her 80's but still going strong, bless her!! I know there are Coopers among the Brazils and Sines somewhere along the line but I'm not sure here. I've had the relationships explained to me in the past but I've forgotten. I'll get back to you with anything I find out. Thanks again.
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Probably totally unconnected but my Drapers sometimes use Smith.
Birth on 7th August 1853 of Aaron son of Aaron DRAPER, Traveller and Hawker, and Janet DRAPER formerly LEE.
Father was informant and made his mark.
When and where born - Hill. Registered 1st September 1853, Registration District Thornbury, subdistrict Berkley, in the County of Gloucester.
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Thanks Darnity, it's possible Aaron was baptised or born under a different surname, at least one of his own children was baptised under the mothers surname Cooper, rather than Smith. I think he was probably a cousin of some degree to his wife Cordelia, if nothing else because of his brother being named Jesse. I can't find any Romany Smiths with that name before his brother was born about 1810-20, but there was a Jesse Cooper (c.1784-1832) who died in Benham, Berkshire, the same county Aaron claimed to have been born in twice on the census. I'm thinking Jesse Cooper might have been a maternal uncle to him. All guess work though!
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Charmaine
This is what I have come up with for the Sines/Sine famile. Earliest I can find are a William Sine and Elizabeth who had the following children:
Thomas Sine born around 1796 West Wickham, Kent
James Sine baptised 24 January 1802 Great Bookham, Surrey
Maria Sine baptised 24 June 1804 Morden, Surrey
Rebecca Sine baptised 1807 Betchworth, Surrey
Thomas and James were basket makers travelling Kent, Hampshire and Surrey. They were both married at Beddington in Surrey, Thomas to Jane Johnson in 1820 and James to Keziah Darby in 1822. Their home parish was given as Mitcham, Surrey.
Thomas and Jane had a son William Sines, born about 1830 (who married Ellen Butler), daughter Emily born 1833 Merstham, Surrey, Son Joseph born circa 1835 Guildford, Surrey and daughter Caroline born 1837 Riverhead, Hampshire. In 1851 the family is living on Wrythe Green, Carshalton, Surrey. Jane died soon after and Thomas remarried in 1852 to Rhoda Mayers (c.1806-1883), and had one more child John Sines in 1853. On the 1861 and 1871 census they are still at Carshalton, and Thomas died there 15th August 1879.
His younger brother James had died about six months earlier at Epsom Common. James and his wife Keziah had nine children:
William Sine born 1823 Camberwell, Surrey
Thomas Sine born 1825 Norwood, Surrey
John Sine born 1832 Merton, Surrey
Harriet Sines born 1834 Godalming, Surrey
George Sine born 1837 at Marden, Kent (baptised at Mitcham, Surrey)
Richard Sine born 1839 Carshalton, Surrey
Henry Sines born 1842 Byfleet, Surrey
Charles Sines born 1844 Walton on Thames, Surrey
Ben Simes b.1845 Chaldon, Surrey
There is a big ten year gap 1820-1830 in the children of Thomas Sines and Jane Johnson, so I think they are also probably the parents of a James Sines born around 1827. With his wife Ann he baptised a daughter Athalias Sines in February 1848 at Longcross, Surrey (Same place my Job Parker was baptised in July that year, so they may have been stopped together at the time). They were described as travellers of Great Bookham, Surrey and are also parents of your Albert Sines, (who was baptised as Albert Synes 18th November 1866 at Botleys and Lyne, Surrey), Samuel Sines, born around 1849, Walton on Thames Surrey, and James Sines born around 1856 Egham, Surrey.
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Also to add to that there is this little bit on the family in the Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society.
"Mesi Lee, sister of Damon Lee, married Kai Scott,and their daughter Mary started a posrat family by marrying a Gajo, Bill Synes
I don't trust this account very much at all though, as Mary Scott was not the wife of Bill, but was the wife of James Sines, the brother of your Albert. James and Mary were parents of Shipton Sines and the Belcher Sines, who was attacked and killed at Colnbrook in the 1920's. Belcher was married to a Louisa Carey, and Louisa's sister Patience Carey was married to their brother William Sines. . Another brother Hezekiah was married to a Cinderella Cooper.
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Thanks for everyone who has shown an interest in this. I have had one last ditch at trying to work out the link between Job Parker and Lemantaney Carey and the Cooper and Smiths. Maybe someone else will see something I am missing:
1850 Thomas Hilton (born 1826 son of William Hilton) arrested with Spicer Cooper (b. 1817 son of William Cooper and Anna/Hannah) for uttering counterfeit coins. Thomas's sister Consaletti Hilton was long term partner of Levi Cooper (born 1827 to James Cooper and Harriet Lee ‘Wandering Gypsies’ at Malden, Surrey)
1870 Levi Cooper appears at trial of James Marney, husband of Susan Junix (daughter of Joseph Junix and Kezia Cooper) described as a keeper of donkeys to let out at fairs, with Job Parker, traveller, testifying to having lent one from him.
1871 Job Parker is on census camped next to Aaron Smith and Cordelia Cooper (daughter of Edward Cooper and Henrietta Smith) the subjects of this thread.
1882 Spicer Cooper dies as a ’65 year old vagrant on Banstead Downs’ in November .
1891 census Levi and Consaletti Cooper are camped on Banstead Downs, James Marney is on Epsom Downs camped with Matthew 'Matty' Cooper, of Royal Rat Catcher fame.
1893 Levi Cooper dies on Banstead downs. Job Parker's grandson Job Ayres is born around same time also on Banstead downs.
1895 James Marney, is camped at Banstead Downs.
1901 Job Parker and wife Lemontaney camped at Epsom Common with James Marney's wife Susan Junix and their sons, John and Amy Cooper and their children, and the Vinsons/Vincents (i.e Frank Vinson and partner Sarah Brazil.)
1903 Job Parker and John Cooper 'two Gypsies' illegally camped on Epsom Downs.
1911 Job Parker and Lemantaney are at West Horsely Common, Surrey, part of a camp of eight tents and waggons, including Henry and Amy Cooper, James Marney (Junior) and partner Dahila Cooper, James Marney and Susan Junix's nephew Matthew Junix with his partner Sarah Goby, and Joe Vinson with his partner Celia Cooper.
1932 Job Parker's great grandaughter Violet Ayres marries Edward Marney at Mitcham Surrey
1934 Job Parker's great grandaughter Matilda Ayres marries William Burden in a joint ceremony with Horace Ayres, Matilda's brother, who marries Ivy Cooper, a great grandaughter of Matthias 'Matty' Cooper at St Mary's Church, Walton on Thames, Surrey. (Ivy's grandfather was Francis Cooper, whose birth in a tent on a snowy Xmas day 1836 is recorded in Queen Victoria's diaries)
I know Job Parker's mother was not a Cooper or a Smith, but an Alford. Also his relationship with Lemantaney Carey began around 1868, when both were 19, and he is only linked to the Coopers after that date. Lemantaney was born on 6th August 1849 at Stanwell, Middlesex. Baptised at St Mary's, Colnbrook, Buckinghamshire, 13 days old on 19 Aug 1849. Her father was Thomas Carey (born 5th November 1811, Hawridge, Buckinghamshire). All I know of her mother is she was called Caroline, and was probably born circa 1814. She died not long after Lemontaney's birth. Could she be the Cooper link? If anyone can help identify her maiden name or the marriage if there is one to Thomas Carey, would be much appreciated.
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Re Spicer Cooper he had a half brother Uriah - baptised in Croydon 1817 father William & Lucy Cooper travelling brazier. Uriah m Mary Hayes in Chipstead 1848 they had a son Spicer bapt West Hoathley 1853 he married Alice Powell and Lucy m Major Smith. Also if you look on 1881 census for Mitcham Uriah is down as Uncle to William Smith. There is a report in the Sussex & Surrey Advertiser 1856 of Uriah Cooper & Spicer Cooper, two powerful & wild members of the gipsy fraternity being charged with encamping on Merrow Down the previous night.
Also if you have a read of the article Dead in a Ditch on the Gypsy Genealogy website it appears that Edward & Henrietta Coopers daughter Cinderella m George Stanley.
The Coopers are a complicated bunch I cant find a direct link to any Parkers as yet.
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Lelu, thanks for the post. I have been looking into Uriah, Spicer Cooper etc too, but yet to find any family link either.
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Hello Richard
Yes I am still trying to get to grips with these Coopers and having had a closer look into Edward Cooper it would appear that he was close kin to my x3 gt gfather Robert ( son of Samuel & Florina).
I was looking at Ham baptisms on the IGI & noticed that Robert & Silva ( Silvia I think) bapt their son Samuel on 1st June 1858. I had not looked for a baptism for him as I had his birth cert which confirms that she was a Williams ( she is a brick wall at the moment). I am decended from Robert & Silvias dau Flora who partnered Aaron Mills ( son of Joseph & Naomi). Mills is my paternal line. Robert is also living at Pawsons Rd Croydon in 1871.
The reason I knew about Edward & Henrietta was because Joseph Smith married a Mills
Marriage at Parish Church Mitcham 10 June 1878
Frederick Smith 19 Bach Hawker Father Joseph Smith Hawker
Jemima Mills 22 Spinster Father Aaron Mills Hawker
This Aaron Mills my x3 gt Uncle brother to Joseph
This was a double wedding her brother Eli getting marring Jane Lindsey the same day.
Going back to the 1871 Pawsons RD census Joseph Smith is 35 so born 1836 which ties in with the
Josiah Smith bap 1858 age 22 and he uses Smith not Cooper.
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Going back to that double wedding Eli & Jane Mills have a daughter Mary Jane born 1873 down Pawsons Rd she partnered Daniel Cooper they are on 1901 census Wilford Rd Croydon Daniel 29 she's dropped Mary & is going by Jane. Daniel is the son of Athaliah Taylor & Joshua Cooper he being the son of Matty. Daniels brother Alfred married into my Mills direct line he uses Taylor. I think that the Taylors are Cousins to the Parkers.I found Daniel as a young boy with Noah Parker I have read that Joshua Cooper died young & Athaliah had a relationship with Fighting Sam Smith does he figure in your Smiths.
Sorry running out of time today if this is of any interest let me know.
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Hi Lelu. The baptisms at Ham did make me wonder myself if Edward might also be a son of Samuel Cooper and Floriana, but the baptisms I have for their children span 1823-36, and Edward seems to have been born a fair bit before this circa 1811. He might have been a younger brother to Samuel. I know James Cooper who partnered Harriet Lee is also probably a brother of 'Norwood' Sam, and of course their son Levi is linked in records with Job Parker too. I have managed to find out the maiden name of Lemantaney Parker/Carey's mother Caroline, she wasn't a Cooper, she was a Pateman. But again this links up to Levi Cooper, as he is camped with her Pateman relations on one of the census years.
I have come across some Mills links researching these families, Uriah Cooper, fathered at least one child to a Sarah Mills, a son Joseph Cooper born at Devizes, Wiltshire in December 1849. Margaret Cooper, baptised at Cobham, Kent, to James Cooper and Diana ‘of no fixed abode’ on 31st August 1828, partnered a Moses Mills, and their children used both surnames Cooper and Mills.
The Taylor link might come through Job and Lemantaney's daughter Diana Parker (1887- 1971) who married a George Taylor. She was widowed and later remarried in the 1920's to Adolphus Loveridge.
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I have sat down trying to make some further sense of this Lelu. I think you are right and the William camped with Uriah Cooper, his uncle, on Mitcham Common in 1881, is the son of Aaron Smith and Cordelia Cooper, and therefore grandson of Edward Cooper who is also camped there that year. That seems to point towards Edward Cooper, born circa 1811, as an elder brother of Uriah and Spicer, and there is a gap in the baptisms of William Cooper's children where he would fit well enough:
Riley Cooper, son of William Cooper ‘A Gipsey’ and Chesiah, baptised at Clewer, Berkshire on 21st December 1800.
Connsaletta Cooper, daughter of William Cooper and Lucy, baptised at Brasted, Kent on 27th March 1803.
Hannah Cooper, daughter of William Cooper and Hannah, ‘Travellers’ baptised at Tudeley, Kent on 11th August 1805.
Joannah Cooper, daughter of William Cooper and Hannah ‘Gypsies’ baptised at Little Bedwyn, Wiltshire on 25th December 1809
Spicer Cooper, son of William Cooper and Anna, baptised at Greenwich, Kent on 2nd April 1815.
Uriah Cooper, son of William Cooper ‘Travelling Brazier of Woodside’ and Lucy, baptised at Croydon, Surrey on 11th July 1817.
What also points in this direction is the lasting link with the Junix family. Uriah Cooper is camped with his wife and child next to Joseph and Kezia Junex in tents at Holty Common, Hartfield, Sussex on the 1851 census. I think it is fairly likely then Kezia Cooper (b.1796 circa) partner of Joseph Junnix, is an elder daughter to William Cooper by his first wife Chesia/Kezia. The fact that Levi Cooper is so strongly linked to all these families in the records might point towards his father James Cooper (b.1798 circa) partner of Harriet Lee, as another son of William. If James Cooper also had multiple partners he might be the father too of Margaret Cooper, partner of Moses Mills.
A strong link between James Cooper and Samuel 'Norwood Sam' Cooper (b, 1794 circa) partner of Floriana is speculated on in the J.G.L.S etc, but the fact his son Robert baptises a child at Ham the same day as Edward Cooper baptised his adult children, might be the extra evidence needed to indicate that he was also an elder son of William Cooper, probably by first partner Kesia.
The above might be speculative but all fits together well enough. The only problem I have is where Matty Cooper comes in. He also seems very strongly linked to this group for over a century, being camped with them , his children marrying with them etc. But he is usually down as a son of Harry Cooper (born circa 1780) and Mary 'Asha' Buckland.
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Hi Richard
I have come across the name Junex/Junix in regard to the Coopers but I'm not sure where I'll have to have a look through my info. I have come across a couple of Kezias I got death cert for the one that died on Epsom Downs 1864 spelt on cert Keziah given age is 60- hawker informant is Joseph
surname looks like Juvient? Could that be the one?
I think the thinking is that Henry Cooper father of Matty, Elisha, William & Daniel are brothers.
What I came on to mention is that I have found a marriage from the old passing through website
13 Feb 1872 St Saviour Croydon
John Cooper 23 Bach Labourer abode Croydon Father Edward Cooper occ Labourer
Bride Elivia Cooper 19 S abode Croydon
Father George Cooper Hawker
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I have this record which places Daniel, William and Elisha together in 1799:
“Stephen Lee, travelling tinker of Southwark, Surrey, born in Hayes, Kent, Adam Lee of Wandsworth and Putney, Surrey, and Old Windsor, Berkshire, Adam’s daughter Elizabeth Lee, born in Old Windsor, circa 1784, Thomas Lee, born in Kensworth, Hertfordshire, Mary Lee, Elizabeth Lee, Elisha Cooper, William Cooper and Daniel Cooper.”
Of course it doesn't say there that they were brothers, but they could be.
In the J.G.L.S it says Levi Cooper and Matty Cooper were fist cousins. That would mean Harry Cooper (b.1780 circa) was a brother to James Cooper (b.1798 circa), but I am skeptical of the accuracy of that account.
I can identify a William Cooper as one of James' brothers, as in January 1849 Levi was arrested with a William Cooper in Sussex, charged with having broken into Strood Lodge, Slinfold stealing two loaves of bread, two ribs of uncooked pork, and a piece of cheese. Boot prints led back to their camp where Levi was sat outside his tent eating one of the pork ribs! Levi was described in court as a 19 year old brazier, and William stated to the court that Levi was his ‘brother’s child' and had been living with him a few weeks, but 'looked out for himself’. Levi admitted to the charge pleading ‘please don’t hurt my uncle he knows nothing about it’.
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Hi Richard
Thanks for all the info lots to think about there!
I also found newspaper report in the Worcester Chronicle 1851 about a tribe of gipsies calling themselves William Cooper, Spicer Cooper other names down as Cope but must surely be Cooper Hannah, James & five small children they were charged with stealing a quantity of potatoes.
The name Junix seems to be attatched to Elishas line I have in my ntes that Elisha & Truffenni had a Kesi perhaps Kesia? That's who I thought that death cert I mentioned might be.
Have you seen on the Romany Jib website the marriage of Leonard Cooper Mattys brother & Philedelphia Smith her father was John Smith Rat Catcher.
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Hello Lelu,
I only have five baptisms identifed for Elisha Cooper and Tryphena Lovell:
Elisha Cooper, son of Elisha and Tryphena Cooper ‘Gypsies’, baptised at Moreton in Marsh, Gloucestershire on 15th February 1795.
Finetta Cooper, daughter of Elisha and Tryphena Cooper ‘Travellers’ baptised at Littleton, Middlesex on 26th March 1797.
John Cooper, son of Elisha and Trofany Cooper, baptised at Old Windsor, Berkshire on 28th July 1799.
Thomas Cooper, son of Elisha and Trophenia Cooper, baptised at Old Windsor, Berkshire on 22nd November 1801.
Daniel Cooper, son of Lesher Cooper and Tryphena, born on 19th August, and baptised at Walthamstow, Essex on 13th September 1809.
But of course there must have been more as John Hoyland’s 1816 book “A Historical Survey of the Customs Habits & present State of the Gypsies” has Elisha as ‘Lussha Cooper’ wintering with his wife and ten children at Tottenham Court Road, earning his living as a rat catcher.
Solomon Cooper and Trinity Cooper are also identified as children to the couple from an 1815 settlement order at Boreham, Essex, when they are both described as children of Elisha Cooper ‘Rat Catcher’ . Solomon's son Dukie Cooper later travelled around with his younger cousin, Oliver, the only son of John 'Fighting Jack' Cooper, step dancing in pubs. Solomon's wife was a Kissy/Kesia White born at Oakenham, Berkshire.
The other three might also be identified. Joseph Cooper, was described as ‘brother of Gipsey Cooper, the prize fighter’ when he was fined for mistreating a donkey at Whitsuntide Fair, Blackheath, Kent in June 1833. Simeon Cooper and Elijah Cooper, were similarly described as ‘Celebrated characters, brothers of Gipsey Cooper’ when they were charged for vagrancy at Roxwell, Essex in Janaury 1834.
I think Kezia Cooper, the partner of Joseph Junnix is more likely a child of William Cooper, as she is camped with Uriah Cooper and his family on the 1851 census, but I'm open to be proved wrong on that. Joseph Junnix was an east end butcher, from French Huguenot stock.
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Hi Richard Its very hard to work out relationships when you do not have anything concrete like a baptism but to my mind having had a look at the 1851 census for Kesia/Uriah I'm wondering if she would be the previous generation as she gives age of 55 but on saying that Uriah should be a little bit older than he says he is. I remembered from the Ham baptisms that there was a Kezia baptising children ( no father mentioned) down on IGI as Kossiah & they do tie up with the Junix's 3 daughters Susan, Marianna/Mary Ann & Elizabeth all baptised as Cooper. You say that Mr Junix was a butcher did he have any premises in Shoreditch do you know I was wondering if it is this ladies death cert that I have & the informant said he lived in Shoreditch.
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Hello Lelu, that is right his family lived and had business premises at different times in Shoreditch, Bethnal Green and Hackney.
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Hi Richard Great thank you I am pretty confident then that its her.
It was interesting about what you said about James as in James & Harriet being Norwood Sams brother that would make sense in terms of the patch they travelled for some reason I had thought of him as being Jacks brother and it was 2 sisters marrying 2 brothers.
I am pretty sure that Jack did have a brother James going by Jem which was then the nickname.
I have been digging in the newspapers too and old boxing books;-
This is The Sportsmans Magazine August 1845
There were four gipsy Coopers the degree of their relationship we cannot tell. Jack Cooper was the best known who beat Scroggins, Cabbage & West Country Dick but was defeated by Bishop Sharp & Young Dutch Sam ( Young Sam also beat Tom Cooper). Jem Cooper beaten by Owen Swift when Owen was a boy is an unknown to the fancy. George Cooper beaten by Dick Curtis at Epsom is also an illustrious obscure being one of those rough and ready " coves of the bush" who were in vogue resorted to the races etc to fight for a purse.
I have also from Bartley Gormans book King of the Gypsies the material I believe coming from Famous Fights Magazine " The Coopers were and still are a famous fighting tribe from Hampshire and in the early 1800s they included Jacks brothers Jem and Tom and cousins George and Tom."
Boxing records are patchy but I found that the Swift match was 4th Aug 1829 & Jem also fought George Lenny June 1822 so all three brothers were fighting around the same time.( I have also found mention of George who I think was Daniels son.)
Also there is mention of James Cooper a gypsy in the Morning Chronicle 26 May 1836 where he is found on Epsom Downs standing over a man named Stephens and I think this is the Gypsy Stephens that partnered Trinity.
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Hi I just wanted to add that the Jem Cooper Owen Swift match is pictured on the front cover of Famous Fights Magazine Vol V11 No 99. I also think that Duke might be their brother.
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Thanks Lelu, I think Gorman's book is most probably right then and James 'Jem' Cooper is a child of Elisha Cooper and Tryphena Lovell. I have Duke Cooper, born 1807, down as Fighting Jack's nephew, the son of his elder brother Solomon Cooper, born around 1790 at Windsor, Berkshire, by his partner Kizzy White.
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Confirmation here that James 'Jem' Cooper was Fighting Jack's brother:
Bell's Life in London and Sporting Chronicle 23rd June 1822 - Boxing - Hampton Races, on the favoured plain of Moulsey would have had a very unusual termination without a fight. Professional boxers were numerous enough, and the want of 'bustle' kept them on the look out for a match. Lenny threw up his 'castor' to fight any one, and was soon answered by the brother of Cooper, who fought Scroggins. A ring was formed in front of the stands, which were re-engaged upon a speculation. The battle was a manly fought one, of three quarters of an hour. Cooper showed good science, but it was like felling an oak tree to hit the stout form of Lenny down. He had the best of the latter ends of most of the rounds, by waiting for his adversary. Both were much punished, but Lenny won it tolerably easy at at last. Another purse was collected for Cooper, another Gipsy, the cousin of the brother, and a promising youth, who made his debut upon this occasion. It was a slaughtering match of more than an hour, and Cooper was beat.
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From Boxiana
A fight between George Cooper (a Gipsy) and the Guildford Butcher Boy on Weds 28th May 1823 at Epsom Downs for a belly full and a blanket. This was the first day of the races. George Cooper said to be a cousin of the two proceeding and certainly residing among the same horde on Epsom Downs.
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Going back to that double wedding Eli & Jane Mills have a daughter Mary Jane born 1873 down Pawsons Rd she partnered Daniel Cooper they are on 1901 census Wilford Rd Croydon Daniel 29 she's dropped Mary & is going by Jane. Daniel is the son of Athaliah Taylor & Joshua Cooper he being the son of Matty. Daniels brother Alfred married into my Mills direct line he uses Taylor. I think that the Taylors are Cousins to the Parkers.I found Daniel as a young boy with Noah Parker I have read that Joshua Cooper died young & Athaliah had a relationship with Fighting Sam Smith does he figure in your Smiths.
Sorry running out of time today if this is of any interest let me know.
The taylors and parkers are related through marriage, henrietta taylor married noah parker.
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Hi
I was reading through your posts and noticed this:
"I know Job Parker's mother was not a Cooper or a Smith, but an Alford. Also his relationship with Lemantaney Carey began around 1868, when both were 19, and he is only linked to the Coopers after that date. Lemantaney was born on 6th August 1849 at Stanwell, Middlesex. Baptised at St Mary's, Colnbrook, Buckinghamshire, 13 days old on 19 Aug 1849. Her father was Thomas Carey (born 5th November 1811, Hawridge, Buckinghamshire). All I know of her mother is she was called Caroline, and was probably born circa 1814. She died not long after Lemontaney's birth. Could she be the Cooper link? If anyone can help identify her maiden name or the marriage if there is one to Thomas Carey, would be much appreciated"
Apologies if you have already discovered the information, I know I am a bit late reading this thread.
Thomas & Caroline are my 3x great grandparents. Caroline was a Pateman.
I believe Thomas & Caroline had the following children:
Golias born: 1834 Denham, Bucks.
Thomas born: 1837 Caversham, Berks/Ox.
Alice born: 1840 Pangbourne, Berks.
John born: 1843 Kent
Lemontancy born: 1849 Stanwell, Middx.
Alice born in 1840 had a relationship with George Lamb.
Alice Carey & George Lamb had three children all baptised as Lambs: Albert 1859, John 1862 and William 1865.
Alice died in October 1865, her death certificate names her as Alice Carey daughter of Thomas Carey but George Lamb was the informant and present at her death.
John Lamb is later recorded on the 1871 Census with George Lamb's parents, Isaac & Elizabeth Lamb and named as their grandson.
William is later recorded on the 1881 Census with Thomas Carey, widower, named as William Carey, grandson. William goes on to use the Carey surname when he marries Ellen Rose in 1895 and they are recorded using the Carey surname on the 1901 Census but switch back to Lamb by 1911.
I believe Caroline may have died in 1850 Wycombe, Bucks but I have yet to obtain this death certificate to confirm this is correct.
I hope this isn't too much extended family information but just thought I'd let you know Caroline's name if you hadn't already discovered it plus the connection.
It was your search for Aaron Smith that caught my attention as I too am looking for an Aaron Smith but the one I am looking for was born earlier around 1784.
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I have figured out the Ruth Sines connection though. Her husband George was the son of Frederick Parker born 1851 at Colnbrook, Bucks. Fred was Job's younger cousin, their fathers Mark Parker (1819-1866)and John Parker (b.1822 circa) were brothers. Job's wife Lemontaney Carey was also baptised at Colnbrook in 1849. A lot of the family still live round that way today. These families seems to have travelled regularly from that area in Berkshire to Surrey and back again. Again maybe because of the link to the Coopers, there seems to have been a lot of Coopers based around Windsor.
You are right that they are cousins but I don't think you have the connection quite right - they are a little more removed. The Sines often travelled with the Harris family who are also linked to the Ayres, Carey families. The family also mentioned a Cooper link but, like you, I am struggling. I have loads of these people on my tree in Ancestry.
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Hello astral14
By cousins I was referring to Job and Fred Parker, who were first cousins, their fathers Mark and John being brothers. Job and Lemontaney are my niece's 3x great grandparents. They travelled with Coopers around Walton, Epsom, Berkshire etc. Best regards, Richard
Mark Parker SENIOR
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Mark Parker 1819-1866 John Parker 1822
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Fred Parker 1851 Job Parker m.Lemontaney Carey
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George Parker m. Ruth Sines
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Lemontanay is a 1st cousin 4x removed of my children.
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Really, that is interesting astral.
I have Lemontaney as the youngest child of Thomas Carey and Caroline Pateman. She was named for her aunt Lamatina, and born on 6th August 1849, in the village of Stanwell, Middlesex. The birth cert is registered as Clementina Carey, but she was baptised as Lemontaney Carey, at thirteen days of age, at St Mary's Church in Colnbrook, Buckinghamshire, on 19th August 1849. She later partnered Job Parker, son of John Parker and Selina Halford/Alford, and appears recorded variously as 'Lemio' (Apr 1871) 'Lamantana' (July 1871) 'Lamtannay' (Apr 1881) 'Clementina' (Oct 1884) and 'Lemington' (Apr 1901). In April 1911 as Clemintina Parker, she is recorded with Job, in a tent on Horsley Common, Surrey, stopping with Coopers, Marneys, Junixs, Vinsons, Deacons and Gobys. Her death, in a caravan at West End, Esher, Surrey, in August 1920, was registered as Lamentany Parker, the sixty-eight-year-old wife of Job Parker, a ‘Licensed Pedlar’.
I know she had an older brother John Carey, who married Rebecca Harris, in August 1863, at Epsom, Surrey, with Matilda Parker as a witness. Is that the link?
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Lemontanay's father Thomas was the brother of Levi (Richard) Carey. Levi was the father of Anna Maria Carey who married George Harris - in our direct line.
I have not connected the John Harris m to Harriet - father of Rebecca but he has to be connected!
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Oh I am with you now astral, yes I think Levi probably travelled with Thomas as his son Levi, junior was baptised at Iver, Buckinghamshire, in 1852, which is just up the road from Colnbrook where Lamentany was baptised a few years earlier. I have Levi, junior, also marrying into the Harris family, a Mary Ann Harris, on 17th July 1882 at Addlestone, Surrey, and the couple appear ‘in huts and tents’ stopped in a lane at Orpinton, Kent, on the 1901 census.
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Hi Charmaine.
I have downloaded the marriage certificate for Ruth and George. 23rd June 1919 at East Molesey, Surrey. He is down as 24 a private in the army, father Frederick Parker, Dealer. Ruth is down as 21, father Albert Sines, Dealer, (deceased).
I'll have to look and see if Fred links up to Job Parker and Lemontaney Carey. They had ten children I know of born over twenty five years 1869-1894, two sons, eight daughters, but I don't think they had a Fred.
I have been looking into the Brazils though, and it looks as if George Brazil and William Brazil who married Violet Burden and Matilda Sayers (1st cousins, grandaughters of Job and Lemontany) were both brothers of your great grandfather James Brazil who married Cordelia Sines. Their parents were William Brazil and Charlotte Bury.
The Brazils can bet traced well back to the 1750s as travellers. The Sines I'm having more of a struggle with tracking back, but will keep looking:
James Brazil (1905-1983)+Cordelia Sines (1908-1988) married 1929 Surrey
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William Brazil (1881-1964)+ Charlotte Bury (1880-1956)
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Matthew Brazil (1845-1919) licensed hawker +Selina Collins (1848-1894)
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John Brazil (1819-1883) a tinman and travelling hawker + Priscilla Harlet (1818-)
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William Brazil, (1795-1871) a travelling mat maker and chair turner, +Jane (c.1786-1869)
born Penshurst, Kent
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John Brazil (1768) traveller + Hannah Jones married 1788 Herstmonceaux, Sussex
born Penshurst, Kent
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William Brazil traveller (c.1745) and Ann
William and Jane Brazil are on the 1841 census camped with two elderly Jones and Smith women who must be relatives of some sort I'd think.
Not sure if this thread still has interest to some but, doing my family tree, I've managed to trace one strand of my lineage back to John Brazil and Priscilla Harlet.
Through discussions with my grandmother and other relo's, I've found I have quite deep Gypsy roots and these Brazil's, as well as Hoadley's, go back to at least Sampson/Samson (1844-1906) and his wife Matilda (nee Parker, 1845-1919.)
I am well aware of their travelling exploits which meant that censuses would've been a pain as the conductors of each census wouldn't've been able to keep track of them due to not being in the one spot.
John and Priscilla were a pair of my 4xGreat-grandparents.
As this is my first post, I'm interested in knowing more about the Hoadley's, Brazil's, Parker's and Harlet's.
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Friday 22 January 1875
Western Daily Press
Bristol
Nelson Talbot and Albina Smith, said to be gipsies, were charged with fighting at St. George's, on Sunday afternoon. Talbot did not appear. defendants were fighting at about three o'clock on Sunday afternoon, and a crowd of 300 or so people were watching the men, who were stripped for the fight. Smith was bound over to keep the peace for six months, and warrant was issued for the apprehension of Talbot
Update on this I think Tubal Ancora Smith is actually Jubal Smith, born 1814 in Wiltshire son of Johnny Ancorn Smith and Agrippina Smith:
Jubal Smith, son of Gripy Smith, baptised at Wroughton, Wiltshire 13th July 1814
1861 Bristol, Gloucestershire
Jubal Smith, 47, Hawker, born Wranton, Wiltshire
Mary Smith, 43, wife, born Fredenton, Warwickshire
Abina Smith, 12, son born Sodmarton, Oxfordshire
Alfred Smith, 18, son born Shipton, Oxfordshire
Hannah Smith,14, dau, born High Littleton, Somerset
Jesse Smith, 2, son, Broadway, Staffordshire
Sophia Smith, 7, daugh, Netherton, Staffordshire
22 August 1883: Marion Jane Smith, wife of Jubal Smith, grinder, no home, Charged with being drunk at Warwickshire.
I'm now inclined to think the Aaron Smith arrested with him at Chesham in 1859 is the same man I am researching, because of the repetition of the name Jesse as a male name in both families. The obvious assumption would be that John Smith, scissor grinder, who Aaron names on his marriage as father is Johnny Ancorn Smith, and he and Jubal are brothers, but there is a good twenty years or more between their births, so I am not altogether convinced.
To complicate further, there is a John Smith and Priscilla James baptising children around the right time to be Aaron, Jonathan and Jesse's parents and in the right counties Berkshire and Hampshire:
Mary Smith, 'Born in the lane', daughter of John Smith 'Traveller' and Priscilla baptised 14th Janaury 1824 at Arborfield Berkshire
Eliza Smith, daughter of John Smith & Priscilla James 'Travellers' baptised at Stratfield Saye, Hampshire on 18th November 1832.
Rhoda Anne Smith, daughter of John Smith and Priscilla 'Travellers' baptised at Finchampstead, Berkshire on 27th July 1834.
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I am currently researching my partners tree and her great grandmother was Diana Parker daughter of Job Parker and Lemington Carey the thing is my partners paternal grandfather was an Albert Smith born 1877 in Walton Upon Thames is there any chance the thread is the same Smiths maybe