RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Suzy100 on Thursday 19 March 15 18:46 GMT (UK)
-
Hope I am posting this in right place!!
I am trying to trace my grandfathers sister, however all I know is that James Powell Coleman married Florence Mary Pinchin (the maid) in 1901 and they had my grandfather Colin Frank James Coleman in 1903. They then went on to have a daughter probably about in 1905 however Florence then ran off with the Butler (no name for him) and I cannot trace either of them after the 1901 census. Is there anyway I can trace the daughter without her name?
-
Welcome to Rootschat.
It will be difficult .
I`m guessing this is the marriage.
1901 Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district:Camberwell
James Powell Coleman
Percy Dennington
Florence Mary Pinchin
Eleanor Kate Plant
-
Hi suzy100, and welcome to rootschat.
I can see on the free index to the 1911 census a Colin Colman in Wandsworth, his age is bit out but as there are only two births for this name in England 1903-1910 and the other one is born Luton and still in Luton on the census I wonder if this is yours
I don't have full access to the census, and 1911 lookups are not allowed but I am sure others will have some ideas
Mike
-
born Luton and still in Luton on the census
Is this Luton in Bedford, Devon or Kent ??? ;D
Annie
-
Yes that is right. James Powell Coleman was a Master printer who moved to London with his first wife Johanna Farthing they had 3 children. His wife then died in 1899 and in 1901 he married the maid! He was in his 50s and she was in her 20s! But I just cannot find this daughter my aunt tells me her name was Rosemary but I cannot rely on her information too much, as other things she has told me I have since found to be inaccurate. They lived in Crystal Palace Road at one stage. I have my grandfathers birth certificate so know that the mother is correct.
-
There is this birth:
Dec 1901 Camberwell
Rosemary Eliza Coleman
Vol:1d Pg:845
-
Familysearch has details of Rosemary Coleman,age 9, born Holwich, London on 1911 Census, if you find the full details yourself it may give you some more info.
-
I wonder about this marriage:
Marriages Dec 1920 in Wandsworth
Coleman Florence M
Hodges William C
Maureen
-
I wonder about this marriage:
Marriages Dec 1920 in Wandsworth
Coleman Florence M
Hodges William C
Marriage in the same area. Could be worth further investigation for a fathers name.
Marriages Sep 1923
Rosemary Coleman / John Jones . Wandsworth
-
If that is the right one, then she was born before and not after Suzy's grandfather. In her original post Suzy said her grandfather was born in 1903 and the daughter after that.
-
I'm sure Suzy will (dis)prove it by ordering the birth certificate.
After all, as mentioned, it was based upon a family story.
Including "the butler" when he was an (significally older) painter.
Although no guarantees that Mr Hodges was the one she originally ran off with.
-
From the 1901 census, it would appear that James and Florence are already living together as a married couple, but did not actually marry until later in the year.
Also in the household is a Herbert RIVIERE, a "visitor" aged 1 year 4 months and born in Camberwell.
Pennie
-
Florence worked for James P. The romance had to start somewhere :-)
-
? . . . . .
Jules Alfred Herbert Riviere s/o Jules & Levada Riviere (Jules Eugene & Nevada Elenor?)
21/10/1899 (bapt 26/10/1899 St Marks Marylebone) 299 Camberwell Road
Father was a chef
Birth Dec 1899 Marylebone 1a 527 Jules Alfred H Riviere
Looks like he died "1963" probate to his wife Ethel May
-
Although William HODGES and Florence COLEMAN married in 1920, according to the previous census they were living together as husband and wife - and had been doing so for five years!
Pennie
-
! (? what is that about?)
-
Although William HODGES and Florence COLEMAN married in 1920, according to the previous census they were living together as husband and wife - and had been doing so for five years!
Pennie
Presumably they had to wait for a previous partner to die.
-
? . . . . .
Death Mar 1921 W.Ham 4a 125 James P COLEMAN ( 68y )
-
Well thanks everyone i will check it all out although as groom says this elusive daughter was most def born after my grandfather. But I will check it out anyway as my aunt was not accurate. Marriage of Florence to William Hodges looks interesting.
I did find James Powell Colemans death which was 1916 in Sussex!! he went to stay with his daughter and her new husband, it took ages to find it though, very exciting when something comes together though.
Just hope I can find out what happened to my great grandmother the maid!
-
Hi
I wonder if the missing daughter was between Florence and William Hodges
Margp
-
Hi
You say that James died, at his daughters house, who was she
Margp
-
Studying all of this and comparing the various records it would seem to me that a) the Rosemary remembered by your aunt is correct but b) that she was in fact born before Colin and not after.
The Florence M's in the 2 census referred to earlier would appear to be the same person.
James Powell Coleman and Florence's marriage was in the Dec.qtr.1901 Camberwell
Rosemary Eliza Coleman birth reg'd Dec.qtr.1901 Camberwell (the birthplace given later is actually a badly written Woolwich).
Just too much of a coincidence for this Rosemary Coleman to have been born in the same place/quarter and year as the marriage of James and Florence and for said Florence to be Florence M. born Swindon on both census!
So, would appear your aunt was half right i.e. she was a Rosemary but born before Colin not after. This can only be proved by obtaining Rosemary Eliza's birth certificate.
Annette
-
I wonder why she took Rosemary with her, but left the younger child with his father?
-
There is a tree on ancestry confirming that it was aforementioned Rosemary Eliza Coleman who married John Jones 1923 Wandsworth - she was born 25/9/1901 and died April 1988 Crewe, Cheshire.
However, they do not appear to have researched Rosemary's line herself.
Annette
-
! (? what is that about?)
;D ;D ;D Lighten up..............we all love a bit of "shenannigans" !!! ::) ::) :P
Annie
-
Having her birth registered in Camberwell, Rosemary's badly-written birthplace is likely to be Dulwich rather than Woolwich.
-
I wonder why she took Rosemary with her, but left the younger child with his father?
A similar thing happened to my wife's grandmother. She was left with her father, while her older brother and younger sister were taken by the mother.
-
William Charles Hodges and wife Florence Mary Hodges lived at 40 Wycliffe Road, Wandsworth from 1911 until 1937. Can't see them after then so perhaps moved out of London (or one of them may have died).
Annette
-
Wow Annette I can't believe it opened Ancestry this morning and looked at 1911 census for Florence and William Hodges and it states Rosemary Coleman as Stepdaughter so this must be my Rosemary!! I will get the birth certificate to confirm this.
I did look at the adoption one that someone mentioned but was not sure about it and didn't know where to go with further research on it.
I guess my aunt got it wrong and my grand father was too young to probably remember properly. Although that leads to the fact of the marriage to William as my great grandfather was still alive then so guess I must look for divorce papers, although again where does one look for these!?
So glad I posted my question on here.
Sue
-
Despite having held themselves out as husband and wife, William and Florence apparently did not marry until 1920 (reply 7). You have said that James died in 1916. So no divorce was required in order for Florence to remarry in 1920.
-
Hi
You say that James died, at his daughters house, who was she
Margp
-
Hi
Yes I realised that after avm228 that she married in 1920 but she states married on 1911 census as I have found happens alot! I will follow this path though as it looks the most likely re Rosemary (stepdaughter)
James Powell died in Worthing where his daughter Elisabeth Tamar lived this was a daughter from his first marriage to Johanna Farthing. They were all disgusted when he married the maid when his wife died!!
-
I think you can take the married in 1911 with a pinch of salt. If they had moved away from where they were known, everyone would probably have assumed that they were married and she just used his name.
-
Yes I agree I have bitten the bullet and ordered the birth certificate!! I have only made one mistake with ordering the wrong certificate so hopefully my instinct will win again in this case.
-
Fingers crossed. Let us know how you get on.
-
Just wanted to thank everyone for their contribution. The birth certificate for Rosemary Eliza Coleman and it is the sister of my grandfather. I feel quite sad :'( that we were denied the chance to grow up with a member of our family, and especially for my grandfather who was always affected by his mother running off and leaving him. Anyway I have found another branch of the family. Thanks guys.