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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Shropshire => Topic started by: DJH on Friday 20 March 15 16:40 GMT (UK)
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William HARTSHORN married Sarah Ann JONES in December 1864 at Atcham.
I would be grateful if anyone could point me in the direction of his family, parents, siblings, Grand parents etc.,
Thank you.
David
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If you have them on the 1871 Census, can you please advise his age and PoB ?
Added: do you know if they had sons Elijah & Harry by 1871 ?
If so, they are in Hookagate, Brace Meole, Shrewsbury, Shropshire in 1871.
Sarah Ann says she is from Pontesbury ( a place within the Atcham Regn District) born c1845.
William, born c1839 is from Birmingham - he is a Coal Miner.
Grandmother Elizabeth c1797 is present. She was born in Hookagate (Brace Meol), Salop.
If this sounds correct, we can go back to an earlier census to find more.
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Unfortunately I don't have this, just the marriage certificate for December 1864 at Saint Chad, Shrewsbury. He was a coal miner and had a connection to a place called Hookagate, Brace Meole (!)
David
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What does the marriage certificate give for his father's names, please?
STG
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Good - Hookagate is correct - see above synopsis of the 1871 in my original Posting ...
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Unfortunately, the copy I have is very poor and I cannot read the details.
I am not sure how to find your original posting (Lostris) Can you tell me how to get to it please.
David
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just look at my original response to your post - ie scroll down from the top of these messages.
In 1861, There is a William Hartshorn in Pontesbury, a bit younger now, but a Coal Miner, however he says he was born in Pontesbury and is married to a Mary and has 2 young daughters - really do need his Fathers name I think ...
This is prob the Marriage to the Mary seen in the 1861 Census in Pontesbury - sadly, the transcription is missing a female name - hers !
Marriages Sep 1856
HARTSHORN William Atcham 6a 973
JONES Martha Atcham 6a 973
Jordan Edward Atcham 6a 973
Ah - wait - this chap is on the 1871 in Church Pulverbatch, Atcham - so we can eliminate him - sorry, false alarm - back to check 1861 for our c1839 man !
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Unfortunately, the copy I have is very poor and I cannot read the details.
Post a snip of it here and we'll have a go at reading it then.
STG
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I can't do that as I think I would need to use a scanner and the one I had doesn't work now.
Do you have the names and dates of birth for the two daughters of William from Pontesbury?
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I can't do that as I think I would need to use a scanner and the one I had doesn't work now.
Take a photo with either a camera or your phone and upload that.
STG
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Why do THREE people married in Atcham in Sept 1856 have the same volume and page numbers? A bit odd I think
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Sorry, that William Hartshorn is on the 1871 in Church Pulverbatch, Atcham - so we can eliminate him - sorry, false alarm - back to check 1861 for our c1839 man !
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Why do THREE people married in Atcham in Sept 1856 have the same volume and page numbers? A bit odd I think
Not at all odd, tis correct; after the late 1850s a 'Page' contained 4 names - ie two couples marrying ... it just doesnt tell you who married who !
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1861 has no William born Warks - but there is one of the right age born Bloxwich, Staffs - with a Father named Elijah ..... good clue given the eldest son in 1871 .....
I'll wait to see if you upload the Certificate ...
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Had a look at the 1851 census - bingo. William's Father must be an older son of this Elijah
In Hookagate .....
Elijah Hartshorn Head Married Male 54 born c1797 Coal Miner born St Julian,Shropshire
Elizabeth Hartshorn Wife Married Female 52 1799 - born Meole, Shropshire
Mary Hartshorn Daughter Unmarried Female 25 c1826 - born Meole, Shropshire
Hannah Hartshorn Daughter - Female 12 c1839 - born Meole, Shropshire
William Hartshorn Grand Son - Male 12 c1839 Scholar born Birmingham, Warks
I didnt notice if he was a Grandson back on the earlier 1861 census - and now wondering if theres a couple of Elijah's floating around !
Just checked and there are indeed 2 Elijah's - so not sure why this 1851 chap doesnt show up in 1861 in Hookagate .... hmmm
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OK, found them in 1861 - name spelled HARTSHORNE ..... in Hookagate as expected.
William is now shown as the SON of Elijah & Elizabeth (all others have left) ....
We need to see older kids of E & E back on the 1841 .... just looked, still Hookagate, but eldest daur is 14 & eldest son present is 12 .....
I cant find a Birth Index entry for William's Birth in Warks ....
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I think I will have to find out more about Williams birth. He needs to be old enough to have a child born about 1865.
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we know he was born c1839 in Brum from the 1851/61 & 71 census - but FreeBMD cant find a Birth there ....
You need to take a pic of that Marriage Cert !
Seems our last option to find his own Fathers name ...
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Maybe someone on here has access to Parish Baptism registers for Hookagate ? We could then see older kids of E & E ....
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I do have a copy of a birth certificate for a daughter of William and Sarah Ann born October 1865 at Hookagate which was scanned some time ago.
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I do have their daughter, Eliza's birth certificate. She was born 30th October 1865 at Hook-a-Gate to William and Sarah Hartshorn. I don't know anything about them and she disappears afterwards until she reappears in 1887 giving birth to my Granddad. Where was she and what was she doing?
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Maybe this baptism:
William Hartshorn
Baptism: 24 Sep 1837
Place: Meole Brace, Shropshire
Father:Elijah, a collier
Mother:Elizabeth
Residence:Hook a Gate
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I think that William died in 1838 as an infant:
William Hartshorn
Birth: 1838
Age: 11M
Burial:30 Apr 1838
Meole Brace
Have found Hannah Hartshorn baptism who was born after William on June 13th 1839, Meole Brace.
There must be another William after this.
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Can't find any baptism for another William Hartshorn in Meole Brace up until 1845. :(
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If this is Elijah's and Elizabeth's marriage then there must be older children than the 14 year old on 1841 census:
Elijah Hartshorn
Elizabeth Easthope
25 Dec 1815
Meole Brace, Shropshire, England
Will go and look :)
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There's a Mary:
Mary Hartshorn
Gender Female
Baptism:25 Sep 1824
Meole Brace, Shropshire
Father:Elijah
Mother:Elizabeth
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Here is the birth certificate of Eliza - the only positive facts I have. She then "disappears" until 1887 when she gives birth to my Grandfather at Berrington Workhouse.
I am trying to find evidence which confirms the line of her father and mother and any siblings.
David
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Can't find any baptism for another William Hartshorn in Meole Brace up until 1845. :(
Dont forget he (according to the Census) was born in Brum .....
I suspect the only way - normally - to get a handle on him, would be to get his Birth Cert .... but cant see a suitable entry in the Index.
So, it would really help if you could photograph & upload Williams Marriage Cert (to Sarah)
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Here is the birth certificate of Eliza - the only positive facts I have. She then "disappears" until 1887 when she gives birth to my Grandfather at Berrington Workhouse.
I am trying to find evidence which confirms the line of her father and mother and any siblings.
David
well, so far (altho you dont seem to acknowledge many postings), we have established that William Hartshorn(e) is the Grandson of an Elijah Hartshorn(e) & seems to spend his census life in the Meol Brace, HookaGate area ...
By bringing this Eliza into the debate are you asking for her whereabouts in the 1871 & 1881 census ?
It would really help if you could photograph & upload Williams Marriage Cert (to Sarah)
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An Eliza is not with William & Sarah in 1871, nor in 1881 (when they are transcribed as Harkhorn)
The oldest child remains the son Elijah - c1866
Strange that there's no Birth Index entry for him .... and also note how close in age he is to the lass Eliza, for whom you showed the Birth Cert .... one almost wonders if theres a huge mistake going on ...
Tell me more about the 1887 Birth to Eliza in the Workhouse - can you name the child ?
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I cannot read any of the marriage cert. now as it is a very old copy and has deteriorated by not being looked after very well in the meantime(!)
Is William the grandson of Elijah? Where is this documented?
I think there may be a mistake or even a direct lie concerning Eliza's gender!
Eliza turns up as a laundry maid living in St Mary's Shrewsbury having given birth to my Grandfather at the Atcham Union Workhouse, Berrington on 27th February 1887. No father was givenbut we have since found that it was a boy called William Kennedy who lived in Gateshead and was a market Gardener. Grandfather was christened at St Mary's Church, Shrewsbury and the baptysmal record added an 'e' to his surname.
I originally dismissed William and Sarah Ann as having made a mistake in the sex and name of their child as Elijah appears later and Eliza doesn't. But, the more I look at it I feel that the original birth certificate was correct after all and things went wrong later! This is what I am trying to work out.
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Eliza turns up as a laundry maid living in St Mary's Shrewsbury having given birth to my Grandfather at the Atcham Union Workhouse, Berrington on 27th February 1887
Well, theres no sign of her even with broad search parameters in 1871 & 1881 - so how do you know that the lass 'Eliza' in Shrewsbury is 'yours' - presumably from the 1891 census?
Also where is your Grandfather (John William ?) in 1891 census ?
Is William the grandson of Elijah? Where is this documented?
Just read thru the thread in its entirety, you'll see he is defined specifically as Grandson in 1851 (I think, w/o trawling back myself) - and on every census he is born in Brum ... (also his Grandmother Elizabeth is living with him in 1871, and she can be seen to be Elijah's wife in earlier census ...)
I cannot read any of the marriage cert. now as it is a very old copy and has deteriorated by not being looked after very well in the meantime(!)
Still worth a try - just zoom in on the relevant part with 'Fathers name' and some techniques are available to enhance things - as long as its in basic focus.
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Eliza is named on the birth cert. of my Grandfather John William Hartshorn. Also the baptismal record at St Mary's Shrewsbury. This was 1887.
In the 1891 Census (Oh, my Great Grandmothers deceits!) Eliza and John William turn up in Newcastle upon Tyne as the "wife" of Ezekial Hutchinson, a barman. She says she was born in Shrewsbury and John William in Wellington. I now believe these to be figments of her wild imagination and possibly an attempt to separate herself from the Workhouse.
As for the marriage, I am working from someone elses transcription of the cert. a long time ago. I certainly can't make out any words now.
I can trace Eliza through to her death in 1911 at the age of 43 (although I think this may need a large pinch of salt.
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think I see John William in 1911 - stating born Bridgnorth - a Compositer
Interesting stuff .... my money is on Eliza NOT being a daur of William & Sarah tho ...... apart from that Birth Index entry in 1865, she doesnt figure in BMDs or the census*, so, as you say only JW's birth Cert Id's her as Eliza Hartshorn(e) - and that wont show her age .....
The tangled webs ......
*Update, may have found her as an actual Hartshorn in 1901, Ashby de la Zouch - Leics. Says born c1870, Shrewbury - a Boarder with the Ward Family - occupation - Laundress.
No sign of young JW tho .....
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I think that would be him. He trained as a printer in the Industrial School, Newcastle upon Tyne. (Don't ask me!)
Working through the records over the years I have come back to this Eliza being the 'one'..........but I can't prove it. I was hoping to find Williams siblings and children to see if they crop up anywhere else that Eliza turned up.
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I see in 1901 in the Jubilee Road, Newcastle on Tyne, Industrial School his PoB is Chatham Kent !
also, I mentioned earlier that Eliza had showed up in 1901 (you may have missed the update to my posting) - may have found her as an actual Hartshorn in 1901, Ashby de la Zouch - Leics. Says born c1870, Shrewsbury - a Boarder with the Ward Family - occupation - Laundress.
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I think, as a very frightened young boy, he mumbled 'Atcham' and the person taking the details had never heard of the place and assumed he said 'Chatham'.
Eliza did move to Ashby de la Zouch and married and Grandfather did visit her there.
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Most inconsiderate of her to die before the 1911 Census ;)
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It is I suppose. She really had a terrible life and was, for ,most of the time, completely on her own.
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If Eliza got married in Ashby de la Zouch, would it not be easier to confirm who her father was on the marriage certificate..unless she doesn't name him of course :-\
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By the time Eliza married her mental health was going downhill very fast. She gave her father's name as 'Joseph' a collier. She in fact married a Joseph and her information, while never very accurate, was quite untrustworthy at this time. Within five years, after two stays in a mental asylum, she was dead.
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Do you know who the Joseph she married was and when? Any little clue may help to work this one out :)
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Joseph Hills I recall - 1906 ? Ashby dlZ
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Eliza Hartshorn who married in Ashby in 1906 looks like she married Abraham Hill :-\
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sorry, didnt recall that well ! - altho I am sure an Eliza Hill aged 43 dies in 1911 - which matches the age that the OP gave earlier !
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Yep, we know all the history of Eliza and Joseph Hill and her death in 1911. By then, believe it or not, she was living in Ashby de la Zouch where the families of my maternal grandparents (yes, both) AND the families of my paternal grandparents were living.