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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: oldhippyone on Sunday 22 March 15 12:55 GMT (UK)
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i have a marriage cerificate for my gr gran margaret graham in 18th jan 1879 which say full age her dad was john william graham dec stain glass maker , the only birth i could find for margaret was feb 1848 newcastle i bought the certificat but it says father as just william painter and glazier , i also found a baptisim for who i thought was margarets dad in 1806 but again it just says william no john all this was in newcastle have i got her father wrong should i be looking for john william,s baptisim because i cant find it ???
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You may be on the right track, but it's always important to work from the known to the unknown, and not to try to jump too many steps at once. It seems to me that either you need to find out more in order to make a judgement, or if you've already done that, you need to tell us so that we can advise better!
i have a marriage cerificate for my gr gran margaret graham in 18th jan 1879 which say full age her dad was john william graham dec stain glass maker , the only birth i could find for margaret was feb 1848 newcastle i bought the certificat but it says father as just william painter and glazier
The occupation for (John) William sounds right, and people did sometimes use extra names, or not admit to ones that they had. However, keep in mind what you know or can find out about Margaret: was her age given on her marriage certificate? What was her age in the various censuses, and crucially, how did her father appear in the censuses?
i also found a baptisim for who i thought was margarets dad in 1806 but again it just says william no john all this was in newcastle have i got her father wrong should i be looking for john william,s baptisim because i cant find it ???
Again, what do censuses say about him? Age? William or John William? Also, what do censuses say about Margaret's mother? That should help you to find their marriage, and as long as that was after 1837, it should give (John) William's father's name, which will be something else you can use in evaluating the 1806 baptism.
As always, little steps: first find out more about Margaret to help you work out if the 1848 birth is right, then find out more about her father to do the same for the 1806 baptism.
Arthur
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i have marriage in 1879 which i know is correct as her husband is correct ages as full father named as john william graham
the only census i can find margaret is in 1851 schedule 179 piece 2404 folio 79 page 39 and her father is just william cant find her in 1861 or 1871 but have her with husband now named hutchinson and right through to her death in 1931 and age corresponds to being born 1848 in the census i found her in the birth cerificate i bought has her as 1848 and father just william , i looked for williams birth and his baptisim was just william i can not find anything else
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Wonder if this is Margaret in 1861 , seems to be with 2 younger siblings.
Class: RG 9; Piece: 3719; Folio: 10; Page: 15
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i cant find it ... all i can find is a margaret in a workhouse
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was she still in newcastle and her sibblings were isabella , edward , alice ,william ,elizabeth and mary ann , margaret was the youngest
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i cant find it ... all i can find is a margaret in a workhouse
Think that's the one I mean in my post , down as a Pauper , birthplace unknown William and Maria are the other Graham children with her , Though with the older siblings Margaret was with in 1851 , I'm surprised that none of them took her in . Checking the older siblings in 1861/71 census may help in finding Margaret , as the Workhouse one may be incorrect
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i cant find the one you have mentioned its not the same as the one i found as her birth place was newcastle along with a few other grahams but the other grahams didnt conect with mine
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There's another possible 1861 entry in the Newcastle workhouse: RG9/3817 fo80 p22 listed next to a Hannah Graham aged 9. Since the other one was in Barnard Castle, this one might possibly be more likely.
However, although ultimately it would be important to find census entries so as to get the complete picture and to corroborate as much as possible, there are other things that can be done.
If, for example, Margaret's father died when she was young, she may not have known exactly what his name was, hence "John William" on her marriage certificate when he might have been just William. Being orphaned could also explain her being in a workhouse in 1861, if that is her. Who were the witnesses at Margaret's marriage? They might provide useful clues.
Also, from Margaret's birth certificate, what was her mother's full and maiden name? That should help in tracking down Margaret's parents' marriage, which might then help in pinning down exactly who her father was and when he was born. If the Elizabeth who is wife in the 1851 census was William's first/only wife, it looks as though the marriage might have been around 1825-1830; this means there won't be a certificate, only a parish register entry, but that's better than nothing. And at least with children born after 1837 we can be reasonably sure of finding the right marriage because of having Margaret's mother's maiden name.
Arthur
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On her birth mother was named as elizabeth hewison
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Marriage of William -
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2PY-V9M
Freereg has Elizabeth's surname as Hewison. Witnesses -
George Tweedy and Henry Cockburn
On the 1841 for William and Elizabeth their neighbours are -
Edward Graham 60 Painter
Isabella Graham 60
Edward Graham 25 Tallow Chandler
Isabella Graham 20
Isaac Graham 12
Possibly William's parents?
JJ
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Yes i got that but i think they were his uncle and aunt ,, i have williams parents as william and elizabeth milburn ... but i might be wrong
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Yes i got that but i think they were his uncle and aunt ,, i have williams parents as william and elizabeth milburn ... but i might be wrong
Edward Graham and Isabella Stephenson had a William baptised at St John, Newcastle on 2 Mar 1806 (born 15 Mar 1805) - source FamilySearch. (I didn't try John William, and there may be other possibilities too.) See if you can find any other children of theirs, as they might match the ones in the 1841 census entry that JJen found.
Ideally you need to look at each of the Williams and see if any of them died young, so they can be ruled out. It would probably also help if you can track down baptisms for all the children found in the census, just to make sure you know who fits where and to keep an eye on father's occupations, residences etc. However, you may now need to extend your search beyond censuses and parish registers to things like wills and poor law records to try and find hints as to which family your William came from.
Arthur
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How domi search poor law records
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I have all the baptisims of william graham and margarets hewisons children all born newcastle all corespond with 1851 census , but cant find any of them after that and there are quite a few deaths for margaret and william graham in newcastle between 1851 and 1861
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How domi search poor law records
This page at GENUKI gives a good starting point: http://www.genuki.bpears.org.uk/NBL/Poorhouses.html
and its suggestion of the Paupers' Records guide from Tyne & Wear Archives (http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/userfiles/UG22.pdf) is a good one - this is a leaflet listing all the relevant sources available there.
Arthur
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looking through my cerificates on margaret grahams marriage to john hutchinson the witnesses are thomas graham and martha graham and on her death in 1931 at wolseley st gateshead her age is 83 maker her birth to be 1848
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looking through my cerificates on margaret grahams marriage to john hutchinson the witnesses are thomas graham and martha graham
Any idea who they are? Might be worth trying to find them in 1881 (& 1871?) to see if that gives any clues.
Arthur
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yes martha graham and thomas graham were husband and wife but martha was john hutchinson sister maiden name hutchinson
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OK, so Martha Graham nee Hutchinson was sister of the groom. Who was Thomas Graham? Looks as though he might have been related to Margaret, but I don't think he's come up in our discussion so far, has he?
Arthur
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I have researched thomas graham and he have a sister margaret but her birth according to census wad 1855 my margaret was 1848 which is 7 yr difference and my margaret from marrige through to her death in 1931 corresponded to her birth as 1848 but i thought same as you and tomorrow am going to look further into margaret 1855 and both margarets born newcastle
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OK - let us know when you need some more input.
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Thank you i will but its strange thomas graham wed martha , johns sister and john wef a graham there has to be some connection ... i will look into it in depth tomorrow as in thomas grahams sister margaret and her birth ... watch this space because i will keep you updated ;D
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update my william graham 1805 parents [ father of margaret 1848 ]were william graham 1771 and isabella norton 1778 i have all there childrens baptisims
thomas graham 1855 who married martha hutchinson who was sister to john hutchinson 1851 who married margaret graham 1848 parents were thomas bewick graham 1826 and elizabeth rymer 1825 i cant make any connection between williams parents william graham 1771 and thomas graham 1855 parents thomas bewick graham ,, but then im no expert ,, in a few months with more research i might find a connection other than marriage of the hutchinson brother and sister
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Sounds like you've been busy! However, since in 1841 William was next door to an Edward and Isabella, and had the same occupation as Edward, I'm still wondering how you're sure that your William is son of William Graham and Isabella Norton, rather than the one I found a couple of days ago:
Edward Graham and Isabella Stephenson had a William baptised at St John, Newcastle on 2 Mar 1806 (born 15 Mar 1805) - source FamilySearch. (I didn't try John William, and there may be other possibilities too.)
(I haven't checked this out to see if they actually were the ones found in 1841, but on the face of it they're a possibility.)
Arthur
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I will have a look again , but im sure edward was williams uncle , and i think in my tree that edward and isabella also had a william 1805 along with other children .. but i will double cheque tomorrow ,, i did look at other trees on ancestry and they all had williams parents same as mine , but they didnt have a edward even ad his uncle ,,, i will give you all i have on william and sibblings
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You have got me thinking to the point i have looked through all my notes iv had layed about for years and iv discoverd i have baptisim records of all of william grahams sibblings but none for him ... i will do a good search tomorrow as im on my tablet at mo and its no good for searching ... its strange why i havent got williams baptisim and yet all of his sibblings when william was my gr grandad
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hear are the baptisim,s i have
birth 2 dec 1805 william graham baptisim 11 may 1806 parents william graham and isabella norton maternal grandfather thomas norton
william graham 15 march 1805 baptisim 2 march 1806 parents edward graham and isabella stephenson
william graham birth 2 march 1805 baptisim 14 april 1805 father william graham
all newcastle upon tyne
then i have a DEATH
wm graham age 18 yr birth 1806 burial 13 april 1824 st john newcastle upon tyne
fh film 847921 p 214 this age of birth fits with both williams how do i get to find his parents as familysearch dont have it neither does ancestry
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I would expect the parish registers to be at Tyne & Wear Archives, and they will probably be able to supply paper copies for a small fee. Alternatively, there are transcriptions of a lot of Northumberland registers at FindMyPast.
Meanwhile, I've had a look at the National Burial Index, and there's a William Graham aged less than 1 buried 12 Nov 1805 at St Andrew, Newcastle. I don't know if this is the right church/area, but could this be the one born 2 Mar 1805? If so, then it might be worth investigating whether the ones born 2 Mar 1805 and 2 Dec 1805 are brothers.
Added:
A different database gives the 12 Nov 1805 burial as aged 8 years, but I think this may be a mistake. It also gives the parents as William, a watch glass maker, and Anne.
Arthur
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I will have to use library find my past on sat as im not a paying member of that .. can i ask whi h other ite you found the 8yr old death with parent occupation .. i will contact tyne and wear tomorrow as for finding out if the 2 williams were brothers .. all it said was burial date no father also same as 18yr old .. i would love to find out who the fathers were as i could have my william with wrong parents .. if you have any more advice on how to find out please let me kno and if i have any more updates i will post them but i think this is all i will find
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i have looked on find my past without paying to see document and there is not a william graham born 1805 died 1824 ,
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i have spoken to tyne and wear archive on the phone and unfortunately they will hold no more information then whats on the familysearch site so no further forward , so case CLOSED :'(
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i have looked on find my past without paying to see document and there is not a william graham born 1805 died 1824 ,
FindMy Past don't have an image of the original document, but they do have the transcription, sourced from FamilySearch: William Graham aged 18 buried 13 April 1824 at St John's Newcastle - no parents mentioned in transcription.
You say case closed for now, and sometimes sanity requires us to put things on one side for a while. However, it might be worth looking at this again some time. Perhaps try following back through one of the brothers or sisters - that can often reveal important clues. Also remember that the parish registers for that area were "Barrington Registers" between 1798 and 1812, and contain a lot of useful information on relationships, occupations etc. Finding someone in one of those can be like gold dust.
Arthur
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Barrington registers ? ... i made a trip to library and searched find my past and no more info i even phone tyne snd wear on both the death of william and elizabeth graham his mother if william was mine they said cost of £30 hour todo search for elizabeth and could take 2hr as i said there were 7 deaths for her and i wouldnt get no more info on william only place of death no parents names , i even searched mormon site for burrial for elizabeth as tyne and wear said westgate where elizabeth was last alive was in st johns but again no burrial listed for her and as for children i have no more leeds even though i have some of them in 1861 census and margret with brother in 1871 then she married becoming my gr gran after that no more leads on graham family
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Barrington Registers - more info at:
http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/Pages/Baptismandburialregisters17981812.aspx
and about halfway down this page:
http://www.sog.org.uk/learn/help-getting-started-with-genealogy/guide-six
As well as a research service, T&W Archives can provide photocopies of entries for which you already have exact dates and places. Ordering a number of those might work out cheaper than an hour's research, but I don't know the figures and you'd need to check this out. Some of the entries may prove not to be your family, but often you need to look at all the possibilities before you can decide which ones are likely or definite.
Arthur
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It costs £ 7 for her to send me a coppy from her death register which i dont mind paying but also said it would only give place of death ... no more info than whats on the net .. only other way is to get death certificate and regarding william it wont name parents and regarding elizabeth there are 7 approx deaths and i either buy all 7 or get them to search for correct one at £30 hr and she said could take 2hr to search
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For paper copies, it looks as though the first one is £5, then 50p for each additional one ordered at the same time. More details on the leaflet at http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/geisha/assets/files/Copying%20charges%20leaflet%202013%20FINAL%281%29.pdf
Arthur
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Its just what she told me this morning on the phone
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Without checking the leafflet again, I think £7 was the price of a digital copy sent by email.
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Thank you arthurk for all your help and advice .. but i have no other option than to give this line of my family up , i have the same problem with my other line my gr gr grandad william morrison spaytree (aspatria) so i had to pay anthony adolph £300 to find his parents , sibblings cos he was a brick wall that was 3rd december and am still waiting for any news on his finding if any ,,, so i cant afford to pay someone to find the grahams as well saddly ... but again thank you for your help and advice
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What would be the point of getting a copie when there would be no added info on it
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Sometimes things are mistranscribed, and it's always regarded as best practice to look at original documents for yourself rather than rely on what someone else thinks they say. With marriage registers in particular, it can be helpful to compare the signatures of people with the same name, to see if they might be the same person.
I agree, seeing original documents or getting copies isn't always practical or affordable, but it's an ideal to aim for. Anyway, good luck with the rest of your research, and do post again if you need any help.
Arthur
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i have trailed through the burrials at st john newcastle familysearch bishop transcrips for more info on death of william graham age 18 on 13 april 1824 and found he was living at what looks like forth street image on page 201
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Not sure if I went the long way round, but I got to the image eventually and I'd agree with it being Forth Street. Does that tie in with anything else that you've found?
Arthur
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Hi arthurk unfortunatly no , the only way it ties in is either edwards or william son were baptised same place this william was burried , ...
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Iv sent email to newcastle library to see if they have any info on who was living there in 1825 but doubt if they will have any info .. but i suppose its worth a try
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forth street is in westgate of newcastle and close to st john,s church and railway .. what iv discoverd today is
my william graham married at st john westgate in 1827
my william [ who,s parents are in dispuite either william or edward ] i have parents as william and isabella norton all there 5 children including william baptised all saints newcastle
edward and isabell stephenson children martha , wilkliam , elizabeth all baptised st john newcastle the other 2 hannah and anthoney born gateshead cant find which church there baptisims
edward and isabella married 1800 at st john newcastle
williams childrenwere in westgate union workhouse in 1861 also last addres for william is dixons buildings westgate
the william age 18 burried st john newcastle living forth st also forth street goes into pottery lane my william was a painter glaser journeyman and edward was a painter not sure if in pottery or houses , i havent a glue where all this has taken me as theres still nothing on my william as to parent either edward or william :-\
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I wonder if you might be at the stage where rather than trying to prove that something is the case, you need to see if you can prove that it isn't.
What I mean is, you have two possible families, with fathers Edward and William. Working forwards, step by step, can you find what happened to all their children, and especially the ones called William? Can you find anything on either of these Williams that would definitely rule him out as being yours? You might need to look at the other children too - eg sometimes you find a niece or nephew in a census extract that you can use to tie possible children/families together.
Arthur
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I have done that and came up with nothing at all but im going to look again and see if i missed any thing . Iv tred to prove whos who belonging to william as in father .. all i can find is whats on hear ... williams marriage doesnt name parents and all trees iv searched on ancestry have williams parents as william and isabella but nothing to back it up and trees have edward with william son but dont have more thsn williams birth .. i have lookec at all aspects to ptovide proof of his father and cant think of anything else on where to look
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I'm afraid I'm running short of ideas. There might be other records that would help, but it's the kind of thing that would likely require a few days solid research in Tyne & Wear Archives, looking at things that aren't online, in the hope of possibly turning something up.
One last shot, which I don't think I've suggested before: how about looking into William and Edward (the possible fathers), and their parents? There's a chance one of them might have left a will naming grandchildren... (Actually, the wills of unmarried siblings can be valuable too, if there are any - as they don't have children of their own, they often help in identifying nephews and nieces.)
Maybe you're going to have to put it all on one side for a while, then when you look at it again you might have a flash of inspiration. On the other hand, it might unfortunately turn out to be a longstanding brickwall - most serious genealogists have at least one, and it's better to be honest about it than to rely solely on guesswork.
Arthur
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I have spoke to tyne and wear on phone asking for info on the william death 1824 they have no more info and said if i got a coppie of his burrial it would give no more info than whats on line ... i found his address on line ..i asked about the address where he died to find who else lived there but they said only people who owned there home or paid over £5 rent would be registerd as in his address ... re wills of fathers i haven found there deaths at this point .. but i doubt if there will be any as they were ordinary folk . ..i do seem to have tryed every thing and got no where .. i have spoken to tyne and wear on williams children who went into woorkhouse and i didnt get answers .. all i got was they charge £30 hr to research and advise me to look online to see what records they hold and when i speak to newcastle library they tell me to contact t&w ... so all i can do is leave william ..
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re elizabeth graham [ hewison ]
i have just got her death cerificate july 1858 and the informant is isabella atkin of halls buildings newcastle ,, i have researched isabella atkins [ as i thought there must be a connection to elizabeth and william ] and her name was elizabeth hutchinson who married george atkin 7 july 1818 witness to her marriage was HENRY COCKBURN and william dickson ,then thomas atkin married 3 feb 1833 to isabella smith witness ELIZABETH ATKIN and jane short then david atkin to ann davie witness again ELIZABETH ATKIN the witness to elizabeth hewison and william graham was also HENRY COCKBURN , and elizabeth and williams daughter margaret graham 1848 married john HUTCHINSON in 1848 how can i make the connection .. there has to be a connection but im looking blind this might solve the answer also to who was WILLIAM GRAHAM1805 father either edward or william please can some one HELP