RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: Greaves on Tuesday 24 March 15 12:02 GMT (UK)
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I am interested in the children of James Archer and Letitia Golding, who married in Whitchurch in April 1828. James died a few years later, as Letitia re-married in 1843 again in Whitchurch to John Cleverly.
Letitia had three children with James:
Henry GOLDEN/GOLDING/ARCHER (b c1828) - it is not absolutely clear who was the father.
Mary ARCHER (b c1830) - I believe she married John GALE in 1873 in Whitchurch. She is living with her mother in 1871.
George ARCHER (b 1833) - who married Mary Anne STEWARD in Shoreditch in 1860.
Letitia had four children with John Cleverly - Eliza (b 1844), Charlotte (b 1846), Harriet (b 1848) and John (b 1851). All were born in Whitchurch.
Letitia died in Whitchurch in 1874.
I would welcome any information about any of the people mentioned above, but especially about James Archer and the three children he had with Letitia. I believe I have all the BMD information relating to the four children Letitia had with John Cleverly.
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Hi again don't know if this is the same family Baptism for Mary Ann Archer 13/8/1834 St Pancras Camden father James Archer ( bootmaker ) mother Letitia Archer address hard to make out but looks like Bagnigge Melis Terrace ? ...On the same page there is another baptism for a Letitia Martha Archer same address same parent's
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The marriage for George Archer to Mary Ann Steward in 1860 lists his father as a John Archer deceased ( labourer ) ..There is also a baptism record for a Henry Golden 27/7/1828 Whitchurch Hampshire father James Golden and Letitia Golden on familysearch
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Yes - I have seen the marriage certificate for George Archer. I think since James Archer died young, he considered John Cleverly as his effective father.
Again I knew about the baptism record and the GOLDEN name, but after that I totally lose track of him.
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Maybe the baptism of Henry Golden(Golding) was mistranscribed ??
Possibly Henry was born shortly before parents marriage and baptised shortly after they married - really need to see Parish register
There is a death reg FreeBMD
Henry Archer Dec qtr 1850 Whitchurch 7 175
unfortunately no age given at that time so certificate purchase would be necessary -or burial record
Suz
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Is this your Mary Archer age 42 occupation silk winder in the 1871 census she is housekeeper to a John Gale age 64 widower living London Street Whitchurch ?
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Here's George
1861
Cage Lane Hornchurch Essex
George Archer head M 26 ag lab Hampshire
Mary Ann wife 23 Hornchurch Essex
George son 2 mths Hornchurch
RG9 1072 1932
have George on all census to 1901 -do you require this kind of information??
Suz
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I'm OK for George once he reaches Hornchurch. It is his early years that are problem.
To be fair, James, Henry and Mary are the real problems.
James - clearly died young, as Letitia re-married. But when and where?
Henry - did he marry? And where is he on the census.
Mary - did she marry John Gale? If so, where are they on the census after 1871? And when and where did she die?
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This might be the family in 1841 transcribed as Archard
Leren Archard b 1811 age 30 address hard to make out ..Sub registration District Whitchurch /Overton
( Letitia Archer )
Henry Archard b1829 age 12
Mary Archard b 1832 age 9
George ''''''' b 1834 age 7
As Suzard said there is a death for a Henry Archer 1850
Can't see a marriage for Mary to John Gale but there is a death registration for a John Gale 1874 Whitchurch age 70 birth year 1804 ?
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Possible for George 1851 Census Civil Parish Freefolk Manor Whitchurch
George Archer b 1832 Whitchurch age 19 servant labourer working for a William Pain farmer
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Henry - did he marry? And where is he on the census.
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Maybe he died young - I posted a possible death reg in 1850
Suz
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If Henry was born 1829 and died 1850, he would have been aged 21 when he died. So I suppose it is reasonable to assume that he didn't marry.
What I would really like are baptisms for James Archer, George Archer and Mary Archer, together with marriage and death references for Mary,
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Someone else has been looking at this family:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=379375.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=246849.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=299755.0
I think the baptism info is on reply 5 of the middle thread.
James' burial is on the first thread - reply no 1.
Nell
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Nell - this is very useful. I will get back to you once I have digested it!
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rosie17 - I think I have found the marriage of John Gale and Mary Archer - Q3 1873 Whitchurch 2c 357. I think she was his housekeeper/companion, who married him shortly before his death in 1874.
So as far as a death is concerned, we are looking for the death of a Mary GALE, sometime between 1873 and 1930.
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It's possible that she remarried in Dec qtr 1874 Whitchurch RD 2c 459 to a Henry West.
I can see the couple together in Whitchurch in 1881 and 1891 after which they both disappear.
Possible death for Mary West, Dec qtr 1897 Whitchurch RD (ref 2c 123) aged 69.
Nell
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Good find Little Nell I would say that is the right couple her occupation the same she seemed to prefer older men :)
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It looks possible on paper. My major reservation is the timing. John Gale died Q3 1874 and his wife of only 1 year is marrying again in Q4 1874. What sort of mourning period is this?
Also I am concerned about the age given for Mary West in 1881 of 42, this is the same as given for Mary Archer in 1871. So 10 years without ageing. And still only 50 in 1891.
So not sure, though it would solve the problem of the missing death.
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I noticed the discrepancies in her age, but it was not uncommon for ladies of a certain age to reduce their age by a few years. I have found several instances of it in my own research. However, her birth place is correct and the occupation is similar enough.
The only way to find out for certain is to get the marriage certificate to Henry West and see who is named as her father.
Nell
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I think you are right and that is what I will have to do. Many thanks.
Still digesting the findings from the other posts you suggested. Once again I have some doubts, which I will clarify soon and post.
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Hi
I have been re-visiting this part of my tree and have a number of problems and questions. I think it is important to remember that the family name has been transcribed variously as ARCHER/ARCHARD/ORCHARD.
I would like to find out more about my 3x GGF, James ARCHER. Has stated earlier, he married Letitia GOLDING on 05 Apr 1828 at Whitchurch. The couple had three children: Henry GOLDEN ARCHER (1828-1850), Mary ARCHER (1830-1897) and George ARCHER (1833-1907). Apart from actual DOBs I have all the other obvious details about the three children.
Letitia re-married on 24 Sep 1843 to John Cleverl(e)y. The couple had four children: Eliza (1843-1881), Charlotte (1846-1846), Harriet (1848-1916) and John Henry (1851-1851). Once again I have all the obvious details about the four children. The only exception being the death of Eliza, who married George DEAN on 21 May 1866 in Croydon. She appears with George on the 1871 census at Lind Road in Sutton, but not on subsequent censuses, even though her husband and family continue to live at the same address.
The main problem concerns the birth and death of James ARCHER, who married Letitia in 1828. It has been suggested on this thread that James was born on 17 Dec 1807 and baptised at 10 Jan 1808 at Romsey. The parents being James Archer and Elizabeth Roberts. It has also been suggested that James died in 1835, being buried as James ORCHARD on 05 Feb 1835 at Whitchurch.
I am pre-deposed to accepting that the James ORCHARD buried aged 28 in 1835 at Whitchurch, was the same man who married Letitia in 1828. I am, however, less happy with this being the same man who was born in 1807 to James and Elizabeth in Romsey. There is a James ORCHARD born and baptised in Whitchurch on 26 Jun 1806 to William and Ann ORCHARD. Thus both the James born in Romsey in 1807 and the James born in Whitchurch in 1806 are both good candidates for the 1835 burial. Any suggestions for sorting out the correct James?
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In cases like this, sometimes the only way is to look at both families, reconstruct them and assess every bit of evidence you can find.
Unfortunately there don't seem to be any wills that might help out. :-\
William and Ann Orchard had the following children baptised in Whitchurch:
Elizabeth bp 26 Nov 1786
John bap 28 Oct 1788
Thomas bap 5 Jun 1791 (NB mother's name shown in transcript as Sarah but I think this might be a clerical error)
David bapt 8 Sept 1793 aged 3 mnths
Rebecca b 8 Nov bapt 15 Nov 1795
Mary b 7 Apr 1800 bp 11 Jun 1798
Charles b 15 May bp 8 Feb 1801
Ann b 26 Feb bp 27 Mar 1803
James b 26 Jun bap 20 Jul 1806
So if this is the James who married Letitia Golding, then he appears to have been the youngest child of William and Ann.
From a trawl of various record transcripts, I have come up with the following marriage:
William Orchard m Ann Head 31 May 1784 Whitchurch
There are the following burials recorded at Whitchurch:
William Orchard aged 60 30 Jul 1812
Ann Orchar(d) aged 76 24 Nov 1836
This is a possible for William's baptism at Whitchurch:
William 4 Apr 1762, son of David Archer (no mother's name recorded)
Siblings:
Mariam 3 Jun 1764
David 10 May 1767
Thomas 5 Nov 1769
Mary 7 Feb 1773
There is a burial:
- wife of David Archer 8 Aug 1774 Whitchurch
I can't find a burial for David :-\
?possible marriage:
David Orchard m Joanna Pearce 17 May 1759 at Burghclere
From HRO catalogue:
Settlement certificate stating that David Orchard and Johanna his wife are legally settled in Hannington, Hants, 4 Dec 1759
Moving forwards to see if any census helps, these are from 1851:
David Orchard b cir 1793, wife Sarah in Micheldever HO107/1673/12 p2, with family, recorded as a pauper
A James Archer recorded as deaf b Romsey aged 42 in Romsey extra 1851 HO107/1671/80 p 17 ag lab m Mary born in Tipperary Ireland, elder son Henry also born in Tipperary, daughters Jane & Emma b Romsey
William Archer b Chilworth, ag lab in Romsey extra in 1851 HO107/1671/116 p15 with wife Sarah & widowed mother Elizabeth aged 66 b Bentley. He appears to have been baptised 19 May 1805, son of James & Elizabeth Archer.
There seems to be much switching between Archer and Orchard - it was obviously subject a wide variety of pronunciation and accents.
Nell
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Nell - thanks for all your research. It is much appreciated. Just a few comments as it is now rather late.
(1) The baptism of William ORCHARD on 04 Apr 1762 @ Whitchurch seems a bit late, as when he was buried in 1812 his age is given as 60, suggesting a birth in 1852.
(2) The David ORCHARD living with his wife Sarah in Freefolk in 1841 and in Micheldever in 1851 is I agree the son of William and Ann ORCHARD, given the agreement with the date and place of birth. Did you notice that in both the 1841 and 1851 entries there is also an Ann ALLEN living with the family, aged 70 in 1841 and 81 in 1851. Moreover, she is described in 1851 as David's mother-in-law. I don't think she is his mother in law, as far as I can see he married Sarah TAYLOR on 06 Apr 1852 in Whitchurch. So could Ann ALLEN be his mother, Ann ORCHARD? If so did she re-marry after William's death in 1812? If she did I can't find the marriage.
(3) The James ARCHER recorded living in Romsey aged 42 in 1851 appears to have married Mary in Ireland, where their first son Henry was born. Are you suggesting that this is the James born on 07 Dec 1807 in Romsey to James Archer and Elizabeth Roberts (baptised 10 Jan 1808)?
(4) The William ARCHER you mention is almost certainly the son of James Archer and Elizabeth Roberts, who was baptised 19 May 1805. In 1841 he was living in Romsey aged 35 with his wife Sarah (35) and mother Elizabeth (55). In 1851 he was still in Romsey aged 45 with his wife Sarah (49) and mother Elizabeth (66). But by 1861 he was in Chilworth aged 51 and a widower, though still with his mother Elizabeth (77). An Elizabeth ARCHER was buried in Romsey on 10 Mar 1864, aged 79.
(5) There was a James ARCHER buried in Romsey on 22 Mar 1835, which could not have been the husband of Letitia as he was aged 59. This suggests that he was the husband of Elizabeth ROBERTS, as James ARCHER and Elizabeth ROBERTS married on 13 Dec 1804 in Chilworth, with being of that parish. So he would have been about 28 when he married Elizabeth, which makes sense. They appear to have had at least 4 children: William (bap 19 May 1805 @ Chilworth), James (bap 10 Jan 1808 @ Romsey), Elizabeth (bap 16 Aug 1818 @ Romsey) and Charles (bap 18 Nov 1821 @ Romsey). So James was alive in 1821 at the birth of Charles, but had disappeared by the time of the 1841 census, making him a prime candidate for the 1835 burial mentioned above.
My thoughts are that the James ORCHARD buried aged 28 in Whitchurch in Feb 1835 is probably the same as the James ARCHER who married Letitia in 1828. I also think that he is probably the same James Orchard born on 26 Jun 1806 to William and Ann ORCHARD.
I believe that the James ARCHER born to James and Elizabeth ARCHER in 1807 in Romsey was the one living with his Irish wife Mary in Romsey in 1851, having possibly done military service in Ireland sometime between 1825 and 1837. [There is a second marriage for this James to Susan NEWMAN on 13 Jun 1867 in Romsey. And the couple appear together in the 1871 census in Romsey. It would appear that first wife Mary died in 1865 and was buried on 09 Apr 1865 in Romsey under the name Mary Ann ARCHER.]
The above contains a number of guesses. It would be nice to be able to say with some certainty that my 3x GGFather James Archer was:
b 26 Jun 1806 in Whitchurch to William and Ann ORCHARD
bap 20 Jul 1806 in Whitchurch
m 05 Apr 1828 at Whitchurch to Letitia GOLDING
bur 05 Feb 1835 at Whitchurch
Any further help towards clarifying or, even better, confirming this would be great.
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You're right re the 1762 baptism - obviously left my maths hat elsewhere last night. :-[
Unfortunately I can't confirm any speculative relationships - that's why I say you have to gather any available evidence and weigh up the possibilities.
I have a similar problem with a family in Portsea - two boys with the same name baptised a few weeks apart with the same first names of parents. I can work out some of the siblings of each based on marriage dates and possible ages of the mothers but which John belongs to whom defeats me.
Nell
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I have just received a photocopy of the actual register of the wedding of James Archer and Letitia Golding in 1828, which gives a little more information than the transcription of some subscription sites. In particular, the witnesses are George Golding and Ann Archer.
Letitia's father was named George Golding, as was her eldest brother, so the first witness is almost certainly her father or her brother.
As discussed earlier William Archer married Ann Head, so the Ann Archer could be James' mother. William and Ann also had a daughter named Ann, who was born three years before James Orchard, so she could be his sister.
As far as I can see, the James Archer and Elizabeth Roberts, the parents of the other candidate, did not have a daughter named Ann.
So this discovery pushes me further towards the conclusion, that the James Archer who married Letitia in 1828 was the James Orchard born to William and Ann Orchard in Jun 1806.
P.S. I have now found a marriage for Ann ORCHARD, who married Thomas REYNOLDS on 01 Nov 1826 at Whitchurch using the name Ann ARCHER. Since this predates, the wedding of James in 1828, it seems to point to the Ann ARCHER on his wedding register being his mother rather than her sister, as I presume she would have used her married name. I think I might try and get a copy of Ann's wedding register in order to see who the witnesses were.
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Further to my last post, I have now seen the parish register for the marriage of Thomas Reynolds to Ann Archer on 01 Nov 1826 at Whitchurch. Most interestingly, amongst the witnesses were James Archer (presumably Ann's brother) and his future wife Letitia Golding.
So James and Letitia were witnesses at Ann Archer's wedding in Nov 1826. And Ann Archer was witness at James and Letitia's wedding in Apr 1828, though presumably she should have been Ann Reynolds by then. So perhaps, the Ann at James and Letitia's wedding was James' mother, Ann Archer (née Head).
I am more and more thinking that the James Archer that married Letitia, was the James Orchard that was born in 1806 in Orchard to William and Ann Orchard and the James Orchard who was buried in 1835 in Whitchurch.