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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: liznjohn2011 on Tuesday 24 March 15 21:16 GMT (UK)
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Hi, this is my 1st post here but im hoping someone can help me to find out what happened to a William Trainer born Berwick about 1844.. died in India 1875?
His parents are James Nelson Trainer 1818-1890
and Eleanor Trainer 1820-1899.
James Nelson Trainer is my 3rd great grandfather & through research, i have found their grave with all family members listed, so i know William died in india 1875
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hello Liz
what was his occupation or reason for being in India, military or birth place for instance.
Tony
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Hi,
This is what National Archives, Kew say:-
http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpregion/asia/india/britishinindia/
Spendlove
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hi spendlove,
thanks for that info, once I hear from Liz I will know which direction to take.
Tony
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Hi Liz,
There is a tree on Ancestry that gives his wife as a Mary Ann Renton. (1842-1868), in 1860 in Berwick on Tweed. However it is unsourced so I don't know if it is accurate.
Is this yours?
Richard
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hi Tony, William was born in Berwick the last quarter in 1843. I have the 1851 census which shows him living at Chapel Street with his parents and siblings. by 1861 census, he isn't there anymore. I don't have anything else to go off I'm afraid, other than he died in India 1875. I do have him married to a Mary anne Renton, at the time I was 'trying' different avenues. would be fantastic if I can find any missing links.. Thanks guys
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Hi Liz,
Still going over this. In thinking about it the age of William (born 1844) at the time of his marriage (16yrs) is on the young side even for that era. How sure are you that this was his marriage in 1860?
Not finding an 1861 census makes me wonder where a boy of 17 could have gone, married or not.
Also do you have any information on when he might have gone to India? I have looked at the "sailings" and can not find him (with or without a wife).
What do you have to show the William who died in India is one of the same?
Richard
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hi Richard,
I'm not 100% sure he married either, tbh iv had alil break from researching and only just looked at it again the other night and decided to see if anyone here could help. think I had found another family tree with William married to Mary Anne and decided to add her as she died 1860 and William died after then so thought it 'could' be possible? I'm not sure how I add details of the census? I have William aged 8 (since found he was born in the last quarter of 1843) on the 1851 census forms with his parents and 3 other siblings. iv also done as much research of his dad James Nelson Trainer 1818-1890 also found the family gravestone an took pictures, where all of the family are listed with death dates. which says William died in India 1875. that's all I have to go off with him. iv searched what I can, but iv only been doing family research this last year so iv ran out of ideas other than buying death certificates.
Liz
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Liz,
Do you think it would help if this was posted in the "Northumberland" post. It might get more local attention.
Send a message to the moderator to request this.
Try this site
http://www.familyrelatives.com/articles/details.php?aid=46
Richard
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Hi Liz,
Do not know if you have this but on the 1861 Census Berwick Workhouse
Piece 3885
Folio 57
Page Number 20
Pauper - Institution
There is a Mary Ann Trainer aged 19 Married Dressmaker. Berwick
So it is quite possible, due to her age she had married William Trainer in 1860.
Spendlove
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Good find Spendlove,
Just got to find Willy boy now.
Richard
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Hi,
Assuming Mary Ann, in the workhouse, 1861 Census is the wife of William Trainer then her
husband has either died or she has been abandoned. We know that William died in India and
should have been alive in 1861.
When people wished to hide, they changed some of their information for census records. So is
this your William Trainer:-
1861 Census Winchester
Piece 691
Folio 173
Page Number 38
Winchester Barracks
William Traynor aged 18 (1843) unmarried Private in the Army Burnley, Lancashire.
The name is correct, age almost but the place of birth is different. Was he hiding?
Cannot see a birth for a William Traynor/Trainer in Burnley or find him on Census.
Perhaps others will take a look?
On Ancestry the whole of the 77 images in this set are for Winchester Barracks, if you go to
image 2 you will see the officers listed, which may give a clue as to Regiment etc.
Sorry not very good with Army info.
I would also have expected him to be listed on National Archives, "search our Records" but cannot
find him there either.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Spendlove
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hi, Spendlove & Richard, iv not long finished work, thanks for all your time trying to help me out. il have a look into what you've found so far, in the morning
liz
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Thank Spendlove who did most of the "finding". I just asked questions ;D
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hi Liz,
the marriage between Trainer and Renton is listed on freebmd.org Berwick 1860 Quarter 4, Volume 10b Page 413. this might indicate that the other Mary Ann you found who died in 1860 may not be the right one (unless of course she died in the same marriage year). as if you were not confused enough.
Tony
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its just got me completely baffled where william trainer went to, his other family was easy for me to find, but he seems to have vanished lol
(sorry, just finished work again, so might take me a little while to reply to anyone
liz
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Can't find any record of a William Trainer death in India around 1875.
There's a William Trainer born Berwick-on-Tweed circa 1843/4 in the 1881 census in Elswick, Newcastle. Married but on his own, a machinist.
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The one in Elswick is still there in 1891, with a wife Charlotte and 5 children. He was a brass finisher born Berwick circa 1844.
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also found the family gravestone an took pictures, where all of the family are listed with death dates. which says William died in India 1875.
Seems rather definitive so that means the later census must be another William
Richard
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The one who married Charlotte (Harrup) is included in a private tree on Ancestry - it might be worth contacting the tree owner to check that William's father 's name.
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The one who married Charlotte (Harrup) is included in a private tree on Ancestry - it might be worth contacting the tree owner to check that William's father 's name.
That tree does have William Trainer's father as James Nelson Trainer and his spouse as Charlotte Harrup. Worth checking out as regards evidence.
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This site seems to provide some records for India;
http://www.fibis.org/
A quick look has not located a death for William but it may be worth a more in depth examination.
Richard
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hi all
I will plan an outing to check out military deaths in India at the British Library, it's a long shot but you never know what might turn up.
Tony
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I will plan an outing to check out military deaths in India at the British Library, it's a long shot but you never know what might turn up.
The BL India Office records are on FindMyPast: I don't see anything there for the death of a William Trainer.
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ahh, cheers Shaun
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I was going to upload the pic of the family headstone I have, but not sure how as I have it saved on my phone? I wouldn't think he would be on any census after the date of death 28th October 1875 (as on the stone)
I appreciate all of your help
Liz
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Just adding this record to the mix (as 1861-17 equals 1844) so not impossible
William Trainer
1861 Worldwide Army Index
Collections from
Great Britain
Year
1861
Rank
Recruit
Soldier Number
#NAME?
It is on GenesReunited, a pay site, have no idea if you can access it any other way
and not sure what details it would have on it, possibly relates to the other army record.
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Hi,
Cannot find Army info, as posted by whiteout, on Genes Reunited, however it does appear on
find my past free search
It also states:-
Unit or regiment - Glasgow Recruiting Office
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/world-records/1861-worldwide-army-index?lastname=trainer
Spendlove
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Hi,
Other places to search:-
www.familysearch.org, the records are "India, Deaths and Burials, 1719-1948,"
You should search by entering B75023-7, in the Batch Number Box. You can search by name
and year, however if you only enter the years 1874-1875 WITHOUT a name you will be presented
with names in alphabetical order. Surnames beginning with T start pg 48, blue boxes bottom right of screen.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Click on blue box "Discover our Catalogue" center of screen
next page select "Advanced Search" yellow print center of screen
next page
exact word or phrase box - enter name
Date - select a date range
Held by - select National Archives
Records Available - select all
Records by Government Dept - enter WO
Ignore all other boxes and hit search.
I have searched but cannot find him but it helps for others to try.
Spendlove
Select National Archives
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Hi Spend love,
sorry about the very late reply, I'm still no further forward really other than, speaking with others and a surgestion of maybe he was working as a missionary in India?
Liz
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possibly my William..
http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_detail.php?id=1699060
up to now, i know for definite William was at home 1851 he was 7yrs old, by the 1861 (17yrs) census he was no longer at his family home.
On his fathers grave, all the deceased family are listed and William, listed died 28th Oct 1875,India.
sooo... was William in India by 1863..
Ref No. SPB0087
Photo no P1020439
Location St. Paul's church, Lucknow
Type of record Baptism (parents)
Year 1863
Man's First Name William
Woman's First Name Catharine
Surname Trainer
Occupation Sgt. H.M. 107th Regt.
City Lucknow (India)
unsure about the part.. type of record...Baptism(parents)
does anyone know what that means, please
Liz
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It's a catholic baptism of a child Catherine Ann Trainor at Lucknow on June 6th 1863 (born May 22nd). William and Catherine were her parents.
The child died on 6th July 1863.
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Thanks ShaunJ
Iv had a reply off the site and need other information other than that William died in India.. Thought i was on a roll then..
Need a bloody medal once hes found lol :( :(
Liz
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Hello Liz,
Have you considered the possibility that your William was a mariner? That would be a reasonable explanation of a lad so young being so far away in India. It wouldn't be a great leap for the family to consider that he died in India if he had died when just off that coast whilst on a voyage to India. I believe that FindMyPast has The National Archives "Deaths at Sea" BT files.
Cheers,
Westoe
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I found your picture of the gravestone online. The quality isn't perfect but it appears to say that he was aged 27 - is that right? Just wondering if 1875 was the right year..
http://berwick900.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/james-nelson-trainer-1818-1890.html
Have you thought about ordering a copy of the 1860 marriage certificate?
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Morning..
Hi Westoe,
I will have a look at the deaths at sea on Ancestry, thanks for another avenue to check.
ShaunJ
That picture isnt the clearest but the age is 32 years. How can I upload it onto here?
I'm looking into buying documents found on the FIBIS site, (that i posted yesteday) aswel as requesting the documents from the Glasgow recruitment, can take upto 10 days for a price. If those 2 are no good, il probably purchase the William Ann marriage certificate. just money atm..
Liz
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I'm looking into buying documents found on the FIBIS site
You already have all the information from the register for that 1863 baptism
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ah.. is that the information you posted?
is that all there would be from the original document or might there be any other details?
Liz
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That's all there is. As you already know that William Trainor was a Sergeant in the 107th Foot.
The 107th was a former HEIC regiment (3rd Bengal (European) Light Infantry) which transferred to the British Army in 1859 and became the 107th in 1862.
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My main goal for William is to be able to find proof of his death. I know when he died and the country he died in. I can't find that on ancestry, although how much more could I find out if I upgraded to the worldwide subscription?
The information about William being in the 107th regt was already on that information I posted the other day, (It was new info to me) I don't know 100% if he IS my William.
I have requested documents about the recruitment in Glasgow, to see if parents names etc link him to me. and hopefully il then find out where he was posted?
Im wanting to (hopefully) ultimately build a picture of his life, because I can't 'find' a lot about him, though it's looking like his life was in India.
which would be the most beneficial site to pay.. as iv paid for find my past, ancestry, forces war records, British newspaper archives, and probably a few more, in the past lol
any more help with suggestions would be great
Liz
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I can't find that on ancestry, although how much more could I find out if I upgraded to the worldwide subscription?
There's nothing for his death on Ancestry. The best subscription site for India records is FindMyPast, but there is nothing there either.
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ok thanks for having a look ShaunJ
think il just need to wait and see what the Glasgow records show, fingers crossed it's him, and go from there.
il have a look into uncles for him as iv only got his parents and grandparents above him
Liz
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forgot to add here that I'd got a quote about the records for william trainers Glasgow recruitment and was told would be around £500... iv never purchased anything like this before so no idea if that price was for the whole list of recuitments for that year or just his.. haha
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From the Illustrated Berwick Journal 21 Jul 1860:
At Berwick Church, July 15 [1860], by the Rev. George H. Hamilton, vicar, William Trainer, brass finisher, to Mary Ann Renton, both of this place.
This must have been a more formal wedding as in the same newspaper but a month earlier: 16 Jun 1860 edition.
At Paxton Toll 10th June [1860], Mr. William Trainer, brass finisher, to Mary Ann Renton, eldest daughter of Mr. Renton, shipwright, both of Berwick.
Perhaps this will help you decide if you want to get that marriage certificate,
Janis
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Hi Tony,
Re the photo of the grave, I am unable to read details from the photo.
So could you actually post what it says about William Trainer, I can read 1st line:-
William, eldest son died in India
2nd line ? ? ? aged ? years
Thanks
Spendlove
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hi, I'm takin a little time out atm as just lost my dad Sunday.
William eldest son died in India
29th October 1875 aged 32 years
il have another look once things have settled down
liz
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Hi all,
Iv just came across an interesting entry on a 1861 census, if someone else could take a look and help maybe confirm iv found William Trainer?
the transcription is as William Frames..
by checking the other people at the same address,
James English
Sarah English (an Aunty)
James
Mary Ann
John
William
Alexander
Joseph Gilchrist
Mary Hope (grandma)
William 'Frames' 18, coal miner (making his d.o.b 1843, same as my William Trainer?)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/NBLRG9_3844_3847-0177/12934112?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/70618318/person/220040689802/facts/citation/740339197299/edit/record
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William 'Frames'
Certainly could be Trainer
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That's great thanks ShaunJ.. Now to see if I can find him anywhere else that will lead him leaving the country!
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I'm wondering if anyone can do a look up on FindMyPast world please?
Someone suggested their great grandfather was found in the British Army on an 1871 census for soldiers in India.
I'm looking for
William Trainer
1843 4th quarter
Berwick-upon-tweed/Northumberland/England
Died 28th Oct 1875 India
Father James N Trainer, Berwick-upon-tweed
Mother Eleanor Trainer nee Hope
Just incase there's anything there thanks
Liz x
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I have looked at the army records already, Liz. There is a William Trainer (1580) of 44th Foot on that 1871 list, but he was discharged to pension in 1891, so not your man.
There is also a William Traynor (6696) Royal Engineers. He was discharged to pension in 1881.
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Aww bugger!
Thanks for the quick reply Shaun, was worth a try.
I know his dad was involved in the temperance movement, I wonder if he's gone to do that sort of work?
Or possibly to just check all outgoing passenger lists between 1861-1875 his death?
I'm not sure if I put on here, but I found a William Trainer entry for apprentices indentured in merchant navy. its the follow year 1862 entry for south sheilds (he was only in longbenton the previous year) could this be the same person? im wondering why theres a line through and cancelled?
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Or if he left on a later date? (If its him)
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It occurred to me that he might have been using his mother's maiden name (Hope).
There is a death for a William Hope in Lahore on 28 October 1875 (the right date !) but his age is recorded as 26. He was a driver in the Royal Horse Artillery.
It is conceivable that he might have understated his age on joining the army, if for example his height didn't meet the requirements and he had to join as a boy soldier.
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Blimey.. It didn't even enter my mind that he might of used 'Hope' bloody hell.. fantastic.. the exact date aswel...
Where did you find that? Is there anymore info? Records to see?
I had to Google Lahore lol
Well done!
It's something else to look into