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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: trisholdham on Thursday 26 March 15 10:56 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I have an Emanuel Hall married in 1869, 1st Feb at the Free Church of England by William Bailey 41, Burton st Sydney, the marriage certificate does not give any details of the parents etc, he married Sarah Ann Crumpton. Is there any other way of finding any more details of this marriage, also I can find no children to this marriage, I have his death certificate in 1914 Sydney but as a friend gave the details it does not state his wife, Emanuel was 74yrs old and died of a Senile Heart????
Any information would be appreciated. Emanuel was in the Imperial Army of the 50th (Queens Own Regiment) that went to Sydney in 1866 from New Zealand, he was in NZ in the Maori War of 1860 attached to the Suffolk Regiment and then transferred to the 50th Regiment in 1866 when he went to Australia. Hope this helps.
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Bailey was likely conducting a 'marriage shop' at the Burton St address.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/bailey-william-1731
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=587437.0 This thread is about that same Reverend, same denomination, same address.
Cheers, JM
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Thank you for the information, will look at all the threads you have sent and see if I can find out any more information on him.
Many thanks
Trish Oldham
NSW australia
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http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
HALL Emanuel
Aged 21.
Ship Chance
Year 1860.
To Sydney
Reel 2139, [4/4796]
1860 arrival to Sydney of Emanuel HALL per Chance. Gives birthplace as Lancashire. An assisted immigrant.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/114839239
ADDING
Looking at the original immigration record ledger, I think the age is 31, not 21. (What do others think?)
This man was Church of England, a labourer, who could read and write .
Sue
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Sue, I am pretty sure that is this man here:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/23131686
He married in Queensland to Alice HINCHCLIFFE.
Debra :)
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NSW Electoral Roll 1913 HAWKESBURY, polling at Richmond
Emanuel HALL, of Railway line, a carter
Sarah HALL, of Railway line, domestic duties
NSW ER 1913 DARLING HARBOUR, polling Fort Street
Emanuel HALL, 13 Princes St, retired
I have his death certificate in 1914 Sydney but as a friend gave the details it does not state his wife, Emanuel was 74yrs old and died of a Senile Heart????
Can you please provide the details recorded as per that dc ...... So, from the dc (or official transcription of the NSW BDM registration)
What full name was recorded
Age recorded
Date and place of death
Usual residence
Occupation
Marital status (widower/bachelor/divorcee/bachelor/ (or blank/unstated)
How long in the colonies
How long for illness
Where buried
That info may help find where he was between 1869 (marriage) and 1914 death ....
:) May I please ask why you know that the 1914 dc is for the same chap who was married in 1869 ?
Cheers, JM
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This is the birth of the man Emanuel HALL .
Probably, I would think, the one with Sarah HALL listed above by Majm
23629/1889 HALL Emmanuel
Parents Joseph & Sarah
At RICHMOND
His death
9225/1950 HALL Emanuel
Parents Joseph & Sarah
At RICHMOND
This obituary for Sarah HALL describes them as mother and son living at the railways yard cottage and mentions her deceased husband Joseph.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/85903310
Obituary Sarah Hall, wife of Joseph HALL 1925.
Sue
ADDING
This chap married
11630/1907 HALL Emmanuel
SCHOFFEL Gertrude
At Richmond
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14178441
FYI.
Newspaper description of the death of Joseph HALL , husband of Sarah and father of six at Richmond railway in 1898.
Sue
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Not sure if this fits in anywhere but there is another Sarah Crumpton (daughter of Thomas Crumpton, of Wiseman's Ferry) marriage by Dr Bailey in 1870, to Joseph Izard:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13218510?searchTerm=crumpton&searchLimits=l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||exactPhrase|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||dateTo=1900-12-31|||notWords|||anyWords|||dateFrom=1800-01-01|||requestHandler|||sortby=dateAsc
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Sue, I think you're right about the age of the man who arrived on the Chance in 1860; that it's 31, however it's not very clear either way. I read his place of origin as Lincolnshire - there seems a clear dot on what, to me, looks like an 'i'.
However, the OP has suggested that the person being sought was a soldier arriving from New Zealand.
??? :-\ Judith
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Yes,
I think this immigrant is not relevant at all ;D
Sue
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So perhaps the chap at Princes St, Sydney (Gipps ward)..... Princes street was the main one leading down to Dawes Point. It was resumed for the Sydney Harbour Bridge. ..... Bradfield Highway is basically similar position, except it is a tad higher, due to it being the road on the built approaches !
Add
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/assessment-books
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/maps-and-plans
http://www.photosau.com.au/cosmaps/scripts/displayIndex.asp?Index=TS (Trig Survey of Sydney)
Cheers, JM
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Not sure if this fits in anywhere but there is another Sarah Crumpton (daughter of Thomas Crumpton, of Wiseman's Ferry) marriage by Dr Bailey in 1870, to Joseph Izard:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13218510?searchTerm=crumpton&searchLimits=l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||exactPhrase|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||dateTo=1900-12-31|||notWords|||anyWords|||dateFrom=1800-01-01|||requestHandler|||sortby=dateAsc
If these two women were one in the same, one would have to say her first husband Emanuel had died.
Divorce was almost inaccessible in those times and, anyway, unlikely to have been achieved in the space of a year.
Also if bigamy was involved, wouldn't the Rev Bailey have noticed as he officiated at both ceremonies?
Sue
So perhaps the chap at Princes St, Sydney (Gipps ward)..... Princes street was the main one leading down to Dawes Point. It was resumed for the Sydney Harbour Bridge. ..... Bradfield Highway is basically similar position, except it is a tad higher, due to it being the road on the built approaches !
Add
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/assessment-books
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/maps-and-plans
http://www.photosau.com.au/cosmaps/scripts/displayIndex.asp?Index=TS (Trig Survey of Sydney)
Cheers, JM
This looks to me like a very good candidate as the right man ;D
Sue
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Divorce came to NSW in 1873 :)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/court-records/index-to-divorce-case-papers
and
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-77
Cheers, JM
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Thank you everybody for looking. my Emanuel Hall was born in Woodbridge Suffolk father William Hall mother Rebecca Clow, he joined the 1st Btn 12th foot (East Suffolk) 1st Detachment and went to Otahuhu New Zealand 1860 to the Maori uprising, he stayed there till 2nd April 1866 where he t/ferred to the Mounted Orderlies of the 50th Regiment and went to Sydney on 10/6/1867 on the "Auckland" the next time I find him married to Sara Ann Crumpton 1st Feb 1869 Free Church of England 41 Burton St Sydney, he was living at Globe St, Lower George St Sydney, I then found him on the1870 Sands Directory as a Drayman still living in Globe St, he was then at Unwin St Sydney 1879 & 1880, and in 1900 in Cumberland St Sydney. His death certificate states he was a Carter and was in the Imperial Army and now a Army pensioner age 74yrs, died 21st Oct 1914 and buried in Rookwood, it also states that he was born in Suffolk England, every thing else is unknown as a friend was a witness at the death he died of a Senile Heart???? and he lived in 13 Princess St Sydney. I did see on the NSW Marriages a Sarah Ann Crumpton married to a Joseph Izard in the following year 1870 in Sydney, it did make me wonder if she was the same person?
I would have loved to have found out more on the marriage certificate but it didn't even give an age for either, just said Bachelor, Labourer and spinster, domestic servant, witnesses - Arthur Baker & Hannah Baker and the Rev William Bailey. I have found nothing on Sarah Crumpton.
There is another Emanuel Hall from Lancashire who went to Brisbane, but he is not mine.
I cannot find any children born to Emanuel, makes me wonder why?
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I will look up my hardcopy of the NSW electoral roll for West Sydney 1903.
Back soon.
Cheers, JM
Meanwhile, some thoughts:
.......Emanuel Hall was born in Woodbridge Suffolk father William Hall mother Rebecca Clow, he joined the 1st Btn 12th foot (East Suffolk) 1st Detachment and went to Otahuhu New Zealand 1860 to the Maori uprising,
he stayed there till 2nd April 1866 where he t/ferred to the Mounted Orderlies of the 50th Regiment and went to Sydney on 10/6/1867 on the "Auckland"
married to Sara Ann Crumpton 1st Feb 1869 Free Church of England 41 Burton St Sydney, he was living at Globe St, Lower George St Sydney,
1870 Sands Directory as a Drayman still living in Globe St, he was then at Unwin St Sydney 1879 & 1880, and in 1900 in Cumberland St Sydney.
His death certificate states he was a Carter and was in the Imperial Army and now a Army pensioner age 74yrs, died 21st Oct 1914 and buried in Rookwood, it also states that he was born in Suffolk England, every thing else is unknown as a friend was a witness at the death he died of a Senile Heart???? and he lived in 13 Princess St Sydney.
I would have loved to have found out more on the marriage certificate but it didn't even give an age for either, just said Bachelor, Labourer and spinster, domestic servant, witnesses - Arthur Baker & Hannah Baker and the Rev William Bailey. I have found nothing on Sarah Crumpton.
I cannot find any children born to Emanuel, makes me wonder why?
Replying 'backwards' order ..... sorry, I am using laptop on lap, and not desktop at desk ::)
Missing births? perhaps the couple were recorded as WALL, BELL, HULL, HOLE, HALE, BOLE, BALE, WOOL, or other alternatives. The registrations were in long hand and not indexed until the mid 1930s. Perhaps search NSW BDM for 1868-1875 using some wild card options ( ? ? ? ? as in four question marks represents FOUR characters in the surname so perhaps W ? L ? and variations on Emanuel (Samuel, Manuel, Emmanuel) and Sarah, Sara ....
Rev Bailey did not keep detailed records, so it is unlikely you will find the rest of the elusive details missing from the NSW BDM registration. How do you know that the chap on that marriage in 1869 is the same chap on the 1914 dc ?
Re the death cert info
What name for the friend, the informant ?
What denomination for the burial at Rookwood
How long in the colonies
I think that '13 Princess St" is PRINCES St, not Princess St. Princes St is in the same ward as those Sands addresses you mention.
Burton St is East Sydney, near the Victoria Barracks.
Cumberland St is on western side of Circular Quay.
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Sorry, yes it is 13, Princes St and the informant was Charles Nelson - Friend of 13, Princes St. witnesses where - Joseph Barker & Thos Caples. he died in the Sacred Heart Hospice.
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Emanuel was buried 22nd October 1914 Church of England Cemetery Rookwood, undertaker Kirby & Sons.
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NSW ER 1903 WEST SYDNEY, polling at Gipps
FOLLOWING are all surnamed HALL Noticing NO sign of Emanuel in this ward for this roll
Charles, 14 Merriman street, coal lumper (so a seafarer_
David, 66 Princes street, seaman
Eva 130 George street, domestic duties
Frederick, 104 Cumberland street labourer
Georgina, 130 George stret, domestic duties
James, 125 Harrington street, brassworker
Joseph, 8 Argyle place, labourer
Joseph, 50 Princes street, night watchman
237 Kent street, saddler
NSW ER 1878 WEST SYDNEY
there’s 32 men on that particular roll with Surname as HALL
Emanuel, residence, off Unwin St
NSW ER 1870 WEST SYDNEY
Emanuel HALL, household, 1 Globe St (26 surnamed HALL, including some at Cumberland St,_)
Henry HALL, household, 3 Globe St
While HALL can be a popular surname, I suspect there’s a connection when two households are sidebyside with same surname.
Cheers, JM
Thanks, now to look for Nelson. The witnesses were likely employees of Mrs Kirby the undertaker.
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That part of The Rocks was being resumed by 1900s so it can be a tad confusing.
I can see NELSON but not Charles on the 1903 roll covering Princes St.
ADD
Sands 1871 (entries closed end Oct 1870 for publication in 1871 ..... same for other years too)
Mrs Sarah HALL, 199 Sussex St
Cheers, JM
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I did see on the NSW Marriages a Sarah Ann Crumpton married to a Joseph Izard in the following year 1870 in Sydney, it did make me wonder if she was the same person?
Where in your searches did you find the second given name Ann for Sarah, the wife of Joseph IZARD?
Sue
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No it is not Sarah Ann it reads only Sarah, my mistake, on the NSW BDM.
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She is defiantly Sarah Ann on this marriage certificate, thank you for noticing the difference.
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Sands 1877
Mrs Sarah HALL, 17 Kent St
Sands 1914
Charles NELSON, 13 Princes St (sadly, no occupation included on that entry)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16085131 smh 3 Aug 1923 notices for the late Charles John NILSSON 13, Princes St . Note that one of the notices is from Sydney No 1 Lodge, GUO Free Gardeners. Perhaps Emanuel HALL had been a member too. I am fairly confident that Lodge is Grand United Order of Free Gardeners.
Cheers, JM (edit to sort a typo on the surname for Charles John :-X )
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I can be easily confuddled, so, may I please ask again ..... how do you know that the chap on the 1869 marriage is the same chap who died 1914?
Cheers, JM
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I don't know for certain, except the death is him, I am pretty certain of that, but no I need more proof on the marriage, but thank you for all the information on the Sands directory's.
This is what I have been after all the time since getting the marriage certificate, more proof on who he is?
Many thanks
Trish
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Sands is freely available on line, and the assessment books are too. These show not just the address' owners, but the occupier too, so you can find neighbours, details of the home, etc .
I posted the links earlier :)So perhaps the chap at Princes St, Sydney (Gipps ward)..... Princes street was the main one leading down to Dawes Point. It was resumed for the Sydney Harbour Bridge. ..... Bradfield Highway is basically similar position, except it is a tad higher, due to it being the road on the built approaches !
Add
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/assessment-books
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/house-and-building-histories/maps-and-plans
http://www.photosau.com.au/cosmaps/scripts/displayIndex.asp?Index=TS (Trig Survey of Sydney)
Cheers, JM
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Hi Trisholdham
On the subject of the IZARD marriage.
Using the spelling IZZARD in the search boxes of Trove and NSW BMD indexes, more information comes to light, but nothing that can confirm or otherwise that the two Sarah CRUMPTON's were one in the same woman.
Here is the birth of the only Sarah CRUMPTON I can see on the NSW index
2097/1846 V18462097 32A CRUMPTON Sarah
Parents Thomas & Ellen
The marriage of this woman to Joseph I(Z)ZARD is already listed.
Her death
4257/1923 IZZARD Sarah
Parents Thomas & Ellen
At HORNSBY
Funeral Notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16064178
Death of her husband Joseph
12554/1924 IZZARD Joseph
Parents William & Jane
At HORNSBY
Headstone photo for the couple
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=8073952
There were children.
Need to bear in mind the sightings Majm has of Sarah HALL around the Rocks area after the 1869 marriage.
Sue
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Mrs Sarah HALL, 199 Sussex St
Cheers, JM
I thought I would post this little news snip. It is probably not relevant, but nonetheless ::)
It is really a little shocking as we read it in this day and age. Seems to confuse the value of a child with that of a lost pet.
November 1874
STRAYED, from 199, Sussex-street, last night, about half-past, a little BOY, aged 2 (?) years ; dark curly hair, bare-headed white pinafore with bind; answers to the name of " Harry." Anyone returning him to the above will be rewarded. '
Sue
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Thanks for the information on Joseph Izard, I realized today when I went into our genealogy rooms in Tweed heads that Sarah Crumpton was not the same one as the marriage I have as I went through every micro fiche in all states and no Sarah Ann Crumpton was born in Australia, there was Sarah Crumpton with father Thomas, mother Ellen, which we know married Joseph, so I am going to look for her immigrating before 1869, she never came into Sth Australia, I have checked that, but what you have done for me is to look further afield, which I have not been doing, thank you very much all of you for that, it is good to have some one else looking for you it wakes you up to things. Only wish I could have found something else on the marriage of Emanuel, never mind!!!!!! may be one day it will happen.
That notice about the little boy was interesting, is Sussex st far from Globe st?
as I use to live in Melbourne I know nothing of Sydney.
Regards
Trish
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Globe Street is in The Rocks, (so almost under the Harbour Bridge). NSW State Records, until very recently, had reading rooms there.
Sussex Street runs the length of the eastern side of Darling Harbour and although changes its name, to Hickson Rd, it continues into The Rocks and so runs under the Harbour Bridge.
There was a re-numbering of the homes/buildings on many of the CBD streets in the 1870s.
Globe St in 1865 in http://www.photosau.com.au/cosmaps/scripts/display.asp?Term=TS/BlockB2
Sussex St in 1865 in http://www.photosau.com.au/cosmaps/maps/pdf/TS/BlockC2.pdf
It would not be 'too far' between those two addresses. In the 1870s, people either walked, rode a horse, caught a bus (horse driven) or hired a cab (horse driven).
Cheers, JM
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Great maps, thanks again for looking for them, they are not far apart the roads.
Trish