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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: silver cloud on Saturday 28 March 15 18:34 GMT (UK)
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Looking for Birth of Joseph Gunnell and the marriage
I have the daughter Elizabeth Ann born 1885 to Joseph and Emma formerly Moss , cant find the marriage, then I have Joseph who's parents are Charles and Margaret, married 1841 Margaret surname is Pennetent on certificate I have, but I can only find a Margaret Bennett, who crops up as mother to Clara, Joseph's sister ??? ???
Confused or what.
thanks SC
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Hi
You haven't given any details of Joseph's birthyear or birthplace
Failure to register a birth only became a fineable offence in 1874/75 so many births went unregistered prior to then
Elizabeth was b Stockport
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Is he 8 in 1871 with a sister Eliza also 8 born Stockport?
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Birth year would be about 1862, all I've got is stockport
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Hi I see in 1891 Elizabeth Ann is with her (Edited) Uncle & Aunt William & Sarah Moss
Census Ref RG12/3090/8/10
In 1891 is Joseph the Joseph GINNELL 30 b Stockport
Census Ref RG12/2790/119/20
Emma?
Keyboard86
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Thanks Emma for that it brings me a bit closer,
will look at that.
Thanks again.
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The 1871 does not show a daughter Clara in household. CheshireBMD shows a birth entry for a Clara Gunnell in 1862 - mmn Bennett so I don't think Clara was his sister
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on 1891 William and Sarah are her uncle and aunt, not grandparents
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on 1891 William and Sarah are her uncle and aunt, not grandparents
OOPS :-[
Keyboard86
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1841 Bull Stake Row Newton
Charles Gunnell 21 cotton weaver
Margaret 19
1851 4 Robinson Street Stalybridge
Charles 28 cotton power loom weaver Newton
Margaret 26
Mary Ann 4
Charles 2
1861 Carlile Street Stockport
Charles Gunmill 37 cotton weaver Hyde
Margaret 36
Mary Ann 17
Charles 12
Sarah 6
Martha 4
Elizabeth 2
1871 census Stalybridge
Charles 48 cotton weaver Hyde
Margaret 47 annuitant hastle grove
Charles 22
Nancy 24 dau in law
Sarah 16
Martha 14
Elizabeth 13
Eliza 8
Joseph 8
Mary Hill 3 grandchild
1881 6 Newton Wood Hyde
Charles 57 wid night watchman
Joseph 19 coal miner Stockport
Clara 18
Margaret 12
Mary 8
1891 17 John Street
Joseph 30 coal miner Stockport lodger
Jennifer
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Hi Carole the 1881 does show a sister clara.
when I looked into r her mother was bennett ???
regards SC
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I wondered if Eliza and clara are one and the dame
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Hi Mabel
Just been trying to fathom it out and i'm
wondering if there is two separate families ,but without Josephs birth I cannot get the mothers maiden name.
regard's
SC
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This is a tricky one and a little bit difficult to explain so please bear with me.
1. I believe that Charles Gunnell's wife was Margaret Bennett (and not Pennetent - can only assume bad writing on original record).
2. According to census they had the following children:
Mary Ann bc.1844/5
Charles bc.1848/9
Sarah bc.1854/5
Martha bc.1856/7
Elizabeth bc.1858/59
Joseph bc.1861/2
Clara bc.1862/3
Checked on CheshireBMD for birth entries and it gets a little odd.
Mary Ann - birth reg'd as Gunning Mar.qtr.1843 Ashton under Lyne (per Ancestry)
Charles - birth regd as Gunning Mar.qtr.1849 Ashton under Lyne (per Ancestry - on Cheshire
BMD shown as Dukinfield - mmn Bennett
Sarah - correctly registered as Gunnell Dec.qtr.1853 Stockport - mmn Bennett
Martha - birth reg'd as Gunning Jun.qtr.1856 Stockport - mmn Bennett
Elizabeth - birth reg'd as Gunning Jun.1859 Stockport - mmn Bennett
Clara - birth reg'd Gunnell Sept.1862 Stockport - mmn Bennett
Cannot find a Joseph born 1861 Stockport under Gunnell or Gunning BUT did discover one
oddity I can't explain - a Joseph Gunning birth is reg'd Ashton under Lyne (like the first 2
children) in Mar.qtr.1852 (Ancestry) as Dukinfield on CheshireBMD - mmn Bennett!!
I looked under the original GRO index page to check the year was correct but wouldn't you know
it no year written at the top of page! Cannot see any further trace of this child in census records.
3. Since there were only 2 older Gunnell's to Charles in Cheshire per census - all living in the same area - it seemed sensible to think they were related i.e. William bc.1800 Hooley Hill, Cheshire, John bc.1812 Hooley Hill and Charles bc.1822 Hyde/Newton, Cheshire. All stated they're born Cheshire. I'd never heard of Hooley Hill so googled and it comes under Ashton under Lyne, Lancashire. I then switched a search for baptisms on familysearch from Cheshire ( no joy there) to Ashton under Lyne, Lancashire and found the following under Gunnell/var's but have just noted years although you can easily find the full dates:
Mary bp.1798
William bp.1800 (the William later in Cheshire)
Martha bp.1804
Hannah bp.1807
Clare bp.1809
John bp.1811
James bp.1814
Clarissa bp.1817
plus
Charles Gemmel (?) bp.29/10/1820 - all are shown as children of Charles Gunnell and wife Mary.
Returning to Cheshire - Charles Gunnel married Mary Owen 29/9/1796 Stockport.
Bit of a tortuous tale but got there in the end.
Annette
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Is this another son?
1851
Midway, Worth, Cheshire
Joseph Bennett 60 Head
Fanny Bennett 58 Wife
Joseph Bennett 20 Son
Samuel Bennett 16 Son
Samuel Gunnell 8 grandson born Newton Moor (Hyde)
James Stone 14 Lodger
107/2158/31/29
Samuel Gunnell birth registered 1842 Newton and Hyde mmn Bennett
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Margaret Bennett
Baptism
05 Nov 1823
Hazelgrove, Cheshire, England
Father's Name Joseph Bennett
Mother's Name Fanny Bennett
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Charles Gunnell
Intended Marriage
29 Aug 1841
St Mary, Stockport, Cheshire, England
Spouse's Name Margaret Bennet
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Looks like the families were close 7/5/1885 William (Willie) Gunnell aged 28 in 1891 married Elizabeth Alice Bennett bapt. 31/8/1860 who's parents were William & Elizabeth Bennett occ. Plumber .
Willie was the son of Charles Gunnell c.1832 and Sarah Ann nee Booth. Charles was the son of John & Betty Gunnell.
They are living with Sarah Ann Gunnell wid in 1891 with their children Charles Bennett Gunnell 4
Edward Clifton Gunnell 2 & William Gibson Gunnell 6 months.
Jennifer
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There is a Fanny 65 & Joseph 70 are with their son Samuel Bennett 44 on the 1871 census
Jennifer
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Thanks everyone for all your hard work and research will still have to find my way thru it all, and possible send for a birth certificate of one of the other children to get a maiden name but I have attached a snippet from the marriage certificate I first got ,this may be wrong family.
thanks SC
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The certificate is all in the same hand so a copy not the original so we still don't know what the 'original' looked like. Plus, as you've no doubt found there are/were no people around with the surname 'Pennetent'. However, I feel sure that this is indeed your family and that her name was actually Bennett.
Can you tell us the names, occupations of their respective fathers?
Annette
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The certificate is all in the same hand so a copy not the original so we still don't know what the 'original' looked like. Plus, as you've no doubt found there are/were no people around with the surname 'Pennetent'. However, I feel sure that this is indeed your family and that her name was actually Bennett.
Can you tell us the names, occupations of their respective fathers?
Annette
I have the original marriage certificate from FindMyPast, and Margaret's surname, is the same has the copied version, her father is listed has Joseph, occ, Carrier, also, if the intended marriage to Margaret Bennett was the 29 August, this was after the marriage to Margaret Pennetent, they can't be one and the same.
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The original copy of the marriage can be viewed on Find my Past
And is the same as the snippet shown. The date of the marriage was 30 May 1841.
But the intended marriage for Charles and Margaret Bennett from Family Search is 29 August 1841, so something's not quite right. ???
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Sorry Marg,
You were much quicker than me ::)
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Hi All
as you can see its quite baffling. The father of Margaret on the certificate is as above said a carrier and Charles snr father of groom is blockcutter, both Margaret was living at 10 hall green dunkinfield
and Charles at 6 hall green.and it does point out they were both minors. I think its going to take me a while to sort this out ???
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If they were married in May then they should be together on the 1841 census which was taken if I'm not mistaken June of that year.
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If you look at all three images on FindMyPast -
Marriage certificate dated 30 May 1841 the bride's surname is Pennetent
Banns entry read on 9, 16 and 23 May 1841 - Bride's surname of Bennet is crossed out and Pennetent is inserted. Date of marriage - 30 May 1841 is inserted in the margin.
Banns entry read on 15, 22 and 29 August 1841 - Bride's surname of Bennet. In the margin is one word "out".
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1841 - HO107/101/8 folio 10, page 14
Bullstake Row, Newton
Charles Gunnell - 21 - Cotton Weaver
Margaret Gunnell - 19
In the same property, but shown as a separate household as
Josh. Bennett - 49 - Carter and his family.
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I wonder if they intended to marry in August, and this may have been objected too, so they married earlier, without there parents knowledge, and she changed her name,
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Thanks Bumble Bee and Marg sat here with all the census in front of me and just noticed the Bennett family on the 1841, you could be right about marrying early as that might explain the entry of Minor on the wedding certificate.
I think maybe the 1881 is a different family :-\
Cheers SC
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Hi could I just ask have you a separate thread for the parents of Emma Moss?
The 1891 family with Elizabeth Ann Gunnell aged 6 shown as Niece I cannot locate in 1881 Except a single William aged 24 b Mossley?
Keyboard86
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Just a thought about the second set of Banns. I'm wondering whether the couple were worried that Margaret had married under the name of Pennetent, rather than Bennet and feared that the marriage was illegal - it wasn't of course. Subsequently they went through the process of having the Banns read a second time under the name of Bennet, and were told that it wasn't necessary after all. :-\ Not sure we'll ever find out, but the purchase of a child's birth certificate might be useful.
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Hi Keyboard and bumbleb
No other thread for Emma as I cannot trace hers and Josephs marriage so I have no parents details on her neither.
SC
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The only thing I have on Emma, Josephs wife is the birth certificate of their daughter Elizabeth Ann, born 6 Alma Terrace Hyde, and it says mothers residence harbour newton. By the time of Eliza Ann marriage in 1906 joseph is down as deceased.
SC
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:D
1891
277 Baglans? Atherton
William Moss 34 Iron moulder born Mossley
Sarah Moss 33 born Hyde
John Moss 15 born Hyde
Joseph Moss 12 born Hyde
James Moss 10 born Hyde
Elizabeth Gunnell 6 niece born Hyde
RG12/3090/8/10
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The trouble now is I can locate a 24 year old single William b Mossley it is the children in 1881?
Keyboard86
PS it is Bag Lane, Atherton
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If the William Moss bc.1857 Mossley is the one you've found who's single in 1881 is he the one who's a son of John and Martha in Saddleworth, keyboard86? If so, it's not the one with Sarah and children in Atherton in 1891! The 1881 one in Saddleworth is still there in 1891 with widowed mother Martha (his age has changed by a couple of years). Cannot find another William Moss bc.1857 Mossley??
The children with William and Sarah in 1891 i.e. John bc.1875/6, Joseph bc.1878/9 and James bc.1880/1 do not appear to have been born with the name Moss in Hyde so suspect they were Sarah's children rather than his or weren't born in Hyde at all - cannot find a likely marriage for William and Sarah either in the known areas.
Just for my benefit, as to Elizabeth Ann Gunnell - who did she marry? Marriage entry 1906 Barnsley states to John William Whitehead or George Fred Senior but cannot trace her after this under either surname??
Annette
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This is the one that I was wondering about
1871
Albert Place, Mossley
John Moss 34 Cotton Spinner
Ellen Moss 24
William Moss 10
Emma L Moss 7
Samuel Moss 3 Months
RG10/4089/42/12
1881
3 Bk Robinson Street, Stalybridge
John Moss 43 Cotton Spinner
Emmy Moss 17
Samuel Moss 10
RG11/4056/86/43
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Yes me too Heather
William has mother's maiden name Shutt, Emma has Emma Lawton Shutt.
John Moss married Elizabeth Ann Shutt 1858 and then went on to marry Ellen Lawton in 1868
So was Emma the daughter of John and Ellen born before they married and what happened to Elizabeth Ann? I can't see a death record for her.
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Cannot find another William Moss bc.1857 Mossley??
There is this one Cheshirebmd
William Moss 1856 Hartshead Tameside mother's maiden name Beswick.
I think Mossley was a parish in Hartshead.
And a marriage, John Moss / Martha Beswick Ashton under Lyne St Michael 1855.
I can't see an Emma Moss bc1864 to this couple.
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Thanks everybody for your help, will try and sort this all out, I think I will have to order some certificates and hope for the best.
Thanks SC :)
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There is a death for
Elizabeth Ann Moss in 1863 Ashton under Lyne
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There was a birth for an Elizabeth Ann Moss in 1869 mmn LAWTON but it looks like this child died in 1870
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thanks for that heather, it may be a relative.