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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Limerick => Topic started by: jillyinnes on Tuesday 31 March 15 15:57 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm hoping for a longshot! My 3 gr great grandfather John Dwyer, was born in Limerick in 1766 and was transported to Australia in 1802 on the Atlas 2. He married Elizabeth Gurney in 1813. I have been unable to find out anything about him in Ireland and am desperately hoping someone may be able to shed some light on the family.
cheers
Jill
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John Dwyer is my 3 great grandfather also. I do not know any more about him in Ireland other than what you already know. He was transported on Atlas 2 in 1802. He married Elizabeth Gurney in 1813. They had 9 children and I descend via his son John Dwyer b.1822 Appin, NSW and d.1883 Appin, NSW.
Would love to find some information on him back in Ireland.
Janette
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As I understand it, there were two convicts by that name on that voyage of that ship.
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/d/F17c_dr-dy-14.htm#P6271_204417
Which one is the one each of you are enquiring about?
Overseer of Quarries or District Constable
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Great to hear from you. It seems Janette and I are searching for the same person. John Dwyer, b Limerick 1766, d Appin 1844.
When John Dwyer arrived in Australia in 1802, he was sent to work at Government Quarry, Sydney for 9 years as he was a stone mason by trade. He was given a Conditional Pardon 29 January 1812, and was given absolute pardon on 12 December 1818 for services on John Oxley's expedition of Lachlan River in 1817. In 1824 John Dwyer became Chief constable at Appin.
He was granted 110 acres of land by Governor Macquarie at Appin on 25 August 1812. He called his farm "Kildare Farm". John purchased properties in NSW and the name of his house in Appin was Doon. This land in East Bargo was called Toomaline.
Do you agree Janette?
Our John Dwyer is the convict mentioned in this site as being 26 years of aged, Native place of birth as Limerick, and trade as a Quarryman. http://members.pcug.org.au/~ppmay/cgi-bin/irish/irish.cgi
Would any of the references in the Colonial Secretary Index you refer to have any information on his family or life in Ireland?
cheers
Jill
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Hi,
I think the names Doon and Tomaline mean something. There is a townsland named Tomaline in Doon in Co Limerick so maybe thats where he came from. Try Googling that address and maybe you would come up with something, also look at the 1901 and 1911 census of Ireland and maybe you will find people of that name living in that area.
Ronnie
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Hi,
I was just going to say about Doon and Toomaline being town lands, that's why they called the houses Doon and Toomaline.
The well known quarry near to Doon was White Quarry.
It closed in the 1920's.
In the register's on line they only have Marriages from 1839 and Baptisms from 1824.
The next place would be the newspapers or the courts for the Trial in 1801.
In the Tithe Applotments in 1826.....
Toomaline Lower there was a Matt Dwyer
Tooomaline Upper there was a Margaret Dwyer
Toomaline Upper there was a Timothy Dwyer.
These must be related to you.
I hope this is a help for you.
Maggsie
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Hi JM
Great to hear from you. It seems Janette and I are searching for the same person. John Dwyer, b Limerick 1766, d Appin 1844.
..............
Would any of the references in the Colonial Secretary Index you refer to have any information on his family or life in Ireland?
The Colonial Secretary's Index points to the actual records that were Indexed. So while the index won't have any further information, the actual records could well have information. May I stress too that the index clearly states that there were " TWO CONVICTS BY THAT NAME ON THIS SHIP", so you need to go through the actual records that are listed at the index, to separate the two men named John DWYER. Fortunately in very recent times the NSW State Records Office (where the actual records are held) has entered into a partnership arrangement with Ancestry and the Col Sec's Index 1788-1825 has been digitised and is available via Ancestry. If you were to go to a public library you may well be able to access the digitised records via the Ancestry's Library version.
Please do be careful about checking to separate the two chaps. It is my understanding that the chap who travelled down the Lachlan with the John OXLEY expedition was perhaps the quarryman, but that the chap who was the District Constable was NOT the chap on that expedition.....
Cheers, JM
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I can confirm from my own offline resources:
Oct 1802
John DWYER aged 44, tried at CLONMEL, sentenced to Life, transported per Atlas 2, arrived 30 October 1802. Conditional Pardon # 96 (and this info potentially conflicts with other info later in this post)
Oct 1802
John DWYER aged 28, Convicted LIMERICK, sentenced to Life, Transported per Atlas 2, arrived 30 Octobrer 1802, Absolute Pardon #327
August 1806
John DWER per Atlas, a prisoner, at the Battery, Sydney (note spelling on the surname is as per my resource)
1810
Letter from John DWYER, ex Ship Atlas 1802, seeking mitigation of his sentence
29 Feb 1812, Conditional Pardon for John DWYER shows he was tried at Limerick, received a Life sentence, and had arrived by the ship Atlas in 1802. (And this info potentially conflicts with earlier info in this post)
31 Jan 1818, Free Pardon for John DWYER, tried Limerick, sentenced Life, ship of arrival Atlas 1802
1814
30 June 1814 letter, John DWYER ex Atlas 1802, Paid from the Police Fund for erecting for the public use the stone Reservoir and Pump in Bent Street (Sydney CBD)
July 1822 letter, John DWYER ex Atlas 1802, receiving an assigned convict
Sept 1822
John DWYER at Liverpool, 80 acres, cleared 30 acres, 20 acres under wheat, 7 acres under maize, 1 acre potatoes, 9 bushels wheat, 60 bushels maize, 1 horse, 15 horned cattle 20 hogs.
SEPT 1822 MUSTER John DWYER, Life, arrived per Atlas 2, “AP” (Absolute Pardon) Residence APPIN
26 Dec 1822, John DWYER, Atlas 1802, Appin NSW, Convicts ex the ship Countess of Harcourt assigned to John Dwyer at Liverpool
April-May 1823, letter John DWYER Atlas 1802, District Constable
28 April 1823, John DWYER, Atlas 1802, appointed Chief Constable Appin district,
7 May 1823, John DWYER, Atlas 1802, Appointed Chief Constable and Poundkeeper district of Appin
1 Oct 1823, John DWYER, Atlas 18102, On the return of the Police Establishment in the Districts of Appin and Illawarra as Chief Constable and Poundkeeper Appin
15 Nov 1823, letter John DWYER ex Atlas 1802, resigned due to ill health
Jan, Feb, Oct 1824
Letter re Convict assigned to John DWYER ex Atlas 1802 in the District of Appin
Letter re Convict returned to Government from John DWYER is Atlas 1802 in the District of Appin
30 March 1824 Letter John DWYER, Atlas 1802, letter of Resignation
30 August 1824 Letter John DWYER, Atlas 1802, letter Memorial (Petition)
23 June 1825, Letter John DWYER, Atlas 1802, On list of persons who had orders for Grants of Land
23 June 1825 Letter John DWYER Atlas 1802 Lands Granted/Reserved by Sir Thomas BRISBANE as governor of NSW.
Perhaps the two chaps were different denominations, but even that will not help to separate the records, as St Philips C of E, Sydney's parish records contain many baptisms for all denominations in the 1810-1821 era when Lachlan Macquarie was Governor. (As per his general orders issued 1810 etc about recording of baptism and burials).
Cheers, JM
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May I please ask
a) :) which document gives the year of birth as 1766 for either John DWYER.
b) :) which document gives the details for the marriage to Eizabeth in 1813
ADD
and
c) :) :) :) :) Have you checked with any of the authors of the following online sightings, including each of the posters on the RChat thread?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=597718.0
and from Goggle
http://www.geni.com/people/John-Dwyer/6000000016634368838
https://www.cdfhs.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=90&Itemid=74
http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/s/t/r/Wendy-L-Stringer/index.html
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dwyer-556
https://www.myheritage.com/FP/genealogy-search-ppc.php?type&action=person&siteId=75073431&indId=1000116&origin=profile
Cheers, JM
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From the online convict index at NSW State Records I can see:
24 Oct 1809 Conditional Pardon for a John DWYER, and that it was torn up 11 Oct 1821 page 47 of reel 771
29 Feb 1812 Conditional Pardon for a John DWYER, ex Atlas 1802 page 56 of reel 774
No date, Free Pardon for a John DWYER, who arrived in Sydney 1802 page 76 of reel 601
No date, Conditional Pardon for a John DWYER page 132 and 133 reel 601
No date Conditional Pardon for a John DWYER page 236 of reel 601
5 June 1815, Absolute Pardon for a James DWYER ex the Atlas 1802, page 52, reel 800
31 Jan 1818, Absolute Pardon for a John DWYER, ex Atlas 1802, noting Received Conditional Pardon dated 29 Feb 1812. Page 54, reel 800
Note that the James DWYER who received a Free Pardon (page 93, reel 601) was granted that pardon in consideration of work on the new road to Bathurst plains under Wm Cox.
The reels are readily available on site at the Archives at Kingswood NSW, and at other locations too.
I think there could well be a connection between James DWYER and one of the John DWYER lads on that voyage of the Atlas in 1802. So, perhaps it may be worthwhile looking for James DWYER’s origins along the quest to find John DWYER’s Irish heritage
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-convict-records/indexes-to-convict-records
For all following this thread, this is a live link to a newish index put together by NSW State Records combining a number of their older style indexes in this one. Please have a read through the information as it gives good background. Scroll down through and have a good read of all the Archives in Brief and look through the examples of convict records. There’s quality information in the records, but it is simply a matter of finding the “right” record for the ‘right’ John DWYER ….
Cheers, JM
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This information is fantastic. I had been waiting for an email to advise me of new content in Rootschat but it didn't come. I'm so pleased I opened the discussion and found all this new help. It may take some time to sort through it all but I shall get back when I have done so.
Many thanks to all for your wonderful help.
cheers
Jilly
;D ;D
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This is some of what I have researched re John Dwyer.
"John Dwyer came to Australia on 'Atlas 2' which left Cork on 30th May 1802 and arrived in the Colony 30th October 1802.
John came from Ireland County Tipperary; town Doon; Townland Toomaline.
John was tried by Court Marshal at Clonmel Gaol Clonmel Co. Tipperary.
On 20th May 1802 he was listed as a Stone Mason/Cutter by Governor Masden at Dublin Castle Ireland, on the 20th July 1800 he was found guilty of the supposed attack on the 13th March 1800 at Palas at the new Stone Bridge on the road to Killowla Co. Limerick. At the time of his trial John had a mother, sister and brother in the house with some children of his sister and Tom Franklin.
John Dwyer in the shipping Archive Office: 30th October 1802 from Cork. 4/4004 392 630 COD 138 2/8243 P 13 2417.
He was a political prisoner sentenced to life because he was accused of being in a group of three which was not allowed at the that time in Ireland, which was then ruled by Martial Law.
When he applied for a mitigation of his sentence In 1810 he was living on the stores and was an overseer to Masons, and had a wife and one child.
John Dwyer applied for a pardon No. 327 on 31/1/1810. He received a conditional pardon No.96 on 29/02/1812. He received a full pardon on 31/01/1818.
John and Elizabeth had two children in St Phillip's Sydney 1813 & 1815 plus Elizabeth was christened in 1813. The rest of the children were christened at St. Mary's Sydney.
John and Elizabeth are in the Pioneer Register. They are on the list for a grant of land in 1814 (3366, 9/3652 Page 17).
John Dwyer took up land at Appin in 1817. Re service to John Oxley expedition in 1817.
In the Sydney Herald on 15th April 1831 he is listed in the Government Notice, Colonial Secretary's Office Sydney, under 'Deeds of Grant'.
"Title Deeds, of the annexed, form, have been this day transmitted to the Surveyor General for the Undermentioned "Grants of Lane", in order, that when duly recorded, they may be forwarded to the collector of Internal Revenue for the purpose of being delivered to the respective parties, upon payment of the prescribed fees, and any arrears of quit-rent that may be due thereon:
He had 50 acres, described in the Government Notice of the 10th September 1930 as No. 1- Deed dated 8th March 1831,.
The only record of John's death is in the Parish Register for Appin: In 1844 he had 20 acres in Whest, 70 acres in Maize, 1 acre in Potatoes, 30 in Cird Crnd, with a total of 80 acres. 1 horse, 15 head of cattle, 20 hogs, 9 bales of wheat and 60 bales of Maize. He did not live on the farm.
In the Doon Cemetery Laurence Marshall of Toomaline is buried 17 February 1834. His father Oliver Marshall of Toomaline aged 70 11/1/1835.
In the 1870 property owner of County Limerick there is 833 acres owned by the Reps of Laurence E. Marshall and they reside at Toomaline Doon.
On the internet (http://www.com/cgi-bin_search.egi ) Irish Convicts search results of Irish Convicts to Australia 1791 - 1815 " John Dwyer is lasted as a Rebel on the Atlas 2 - trial in 1801 in Limerick he received Life and was born 1776 in Limerick and died 1844 at Appin and he was a quarryman.
In the Griffiths Valuation Survey for Doon there was a Laurence Marshall Esq in 1851. This is the son of Laurence Marshall who stood up for John Dwyer at the trial.
In the Tithe Book of Toomaline (Townland) Doon Co. Limerick 1826 - titles there was a Margaret Dwyer title holder at Toomaline in 1826."
My grandmother was Mamie Levenia Dwyer who married Harry Rayner and she was the daughter of Philip Dwyer and Isabella Mary Moore. This is my connection to John Dwyer of Appin. I can tell you more about his properties in Appin.
Janette Childs
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This is some of what I have researched re John Dwyer.
"John Dwyer came to Australia on 'Atlas 2' which left Cork on 30th May 1802 and arrived in the Colony 30th October 1802.
.......
John Dwyer applied for a pardon No. 327 on 31/1/1810. He received a conditional pardon No.96 on 29/02/1812. He received a full pardon on 31/01/1818.
John and Elizabeth had two children in St Phillip's Sydney 1813 & 1815 plus Elizabeth was christened in 1813. The rest of the children were christened at St. Mary's Sydney.
John and Elizabeth are in the Pioneer Register. They are on the list for a grant of land in 1814 (3366, 9/3652 Page 17).
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Some information and also a question.
John, son of John and Elizabeth DWYER was born 4 December 1815, and baptised 24 December 1815. The baptism is registered in the parish register of St Philip’s C of E, Sydney. The baptism is twice registered in the NSW BDM Early Church Records. This indicates to me that St Philips hold the transmitted record of the baptism, as per the requirements Governor Macquarie’s General Orders from 1810.
NSW BDM Volume 7 (a volume of C of E registrations), line 482, of 1815
And
NSW BDM Volume 1B (C of E), line 3752, of 1815
And
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCX-831
John DWYER aged 1 year 10 months died 19 October 1817 and was buried 20 October 1817. The burial was registered at St Philip’s C of E, Sydney.
The burial is three times registered in the NSW BDM Early Church Records, which suggests to me that the transmitted record was twice recorded at St Philip’s, or there’s a confusion over the line number in Volume 2B.
1817, Vol 7, line 641
1817, Vol 2B line 3835
1817, Vol 2B, line 3853
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCH-G25
May I please ask which of the TWO chaps named John DWYER, transported on the Atlas in 1802, was the father of the baby baptised in December 1815
Further info in following post :)
Cheers, JM
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The surname DWYER was quite a popular one on that 1802 voyage of the Atlas :
Anthony DWYER
Cornelius or Connor DWYER
John DWYER
John DWYER
The NSW Colonial Secretary’s Index clearly notes that there were TWO John DWYER chaps on the Atlas of 1802
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/d/F17c_dr-dy-14.htm#P6271_204417
“DWYER, John. Per "Atlas", 1802; two convicts of this name by this ship”
31 January 1818 John DWYER, ex Atlas 2 of 1802, from Co Tipperary, a Stone Cutter, and the person who had received a Conditional Pardon No. 96, dated 29 February 1812 was granted an Absolute Pardon. He had been fried at Limerick, and he had received a Life Sentence , he was 5 ft 6 ½ inches tall, dark ruddy complexion, black hair, grey eyes, The Absolute Pardon was numbered 327.
From the image of the letter dated 30 August 1824 from John DWYER to the NSW Governor, for a Grant of Land, it is clear that it was the John DWYER holding absolute Pardon 327 of 31 January 1818, tracing back to Conditional pardon No. 96 of 29 February 1812 that was applying for that Grant of Land. That petitioner states that he has “a Wife and four children and is possessed of 3 horses and 30 head of horned cattle” He also states that he had obtained a Grand of Land …. Appin …. 1817, 30 Acres, the hole of which is entirely clear, and under cultivation, 18 acres of the same being stumped.” The petition is seeking more land an ‘additional farm’ to immediately clear and cultivate
The John DWYER with the petition back in 1810 was seeking a Conditional Pardon. At that time he was the Overseer of the Quarry. The petition of 1810 was NOT numbered 327. The Conditional Pardon it was seeking was not numbered 327.
Now to my question.
Given there were two chaps named John DWYER on the Atlas of 1802, errr..... please may I ask how you have confirmed that the petitioner in 1810 is the same chap that received Absolute Pardon # 327 in 1818
You note Conditional Pardon and Full Pardon. I am not sure what you mean by 'Full Pardon' but once a person had a Conditional Pardon they were emancipated.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-convict-records/index-to-tickets-of-leave-certificates-and-pardons
Pardons: Convicts with life sentences generally received pardons. The two main types of pardons were:
Conditional pardon - the convict was free as long as they remained in the colony
Absolute pardon - the convict's sentence was entirely remitted. They were free both within and outside of the colony and could return to Britain.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=65
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-convict-records/index-to-tickets-of-leave-certificates-and-pardons
So for example from the Atlas of 1802, Anthony DWYER received his CP 31 Jan 1815 and handed it back in upon receiving his AP 28 Nov 1821 (Reel 601 page 643) (These are the reels at the State Archives at Kingswood NSW, and elsewhere)
James DWYER who arrived 1802 received a free pardon in consideration of work on the new road to Bathurst Plains under Wm Cox. (Reel 601, page 93)
John DWYER who arrived in Sydney 1802 received a Free Pardon. (Reel 601, page 68)
John DWYER received a CP (reel 601 pages 132-133)
John DWYER received a CP (reel 601, page 236)
John DWYER received a CP 24 October 1809 (Reel 774, page 47), torn up 11 October 1821
Cornelius DWYER (or Conner), ex the Atlas of 1802, received a Ticket of leave in 1813, it was numbered 13/2, He had been tried at Limerick and received a Life Sentence. (Reel 601, pg 442)
Cornelius DWYER of the Atlas of 1802, received a CP dated 31 Jan 1814. (Reel 774, page 72), Granted a special Cert in lieu on 10 Feb 1816,
James DWYER (remember that in NSW records that James and John were often found to be interchangeable given names) Atlas 1802, Tried Limerick, Life Sentence, received Ticket of Leave in 1811. It was numbered 266 (11/266) Reel 601, page 463
James DWYER of the Atlas 1802, received AP on 5 June 1815. Reel 800, page 052
John DWYER, of the Atlas 1802, received AP 31 Jan 1818. Reel 800, page 054. CP 29 Feb 1812.
John DWYER of the Atlas 1802 received CP 29 Feb 1812 Reel 774 page 56.
NSW State Records :
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-convict-records/index-to-convict-pardons/index-to-convict-pardons
Abbreviations
CP - Conditional Pardon; AP - Absolute Pardon; AP (E) - Exceptive Absolute Pardon; Col - Colonial Pardon;
Col P - Colonial Pardon; Col CP - Colonial Conditional Pardon; Col FP - Colonial Free Pardon;
RW - Royal Pardon Warrant; FP - Free Pardon; CP (1C) - First Class Conditional Pardon;
CP (2C) - Second Class Conditional Pardon
Cheers, JM
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John Dwyer court martialled in july 1801, Atlas, John Dwyer, Hugh Hays, Denis Molly, George Russell, Grimes Tierney, group conducted armes raids around limerick, march 1800,
Book by Anne Maree Whittker, Unfinished Revolution
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Hi,
I just noticed this post. Have you done any DNA testing in Looking for you O'Dwyer from Limerick.
It may be a Coincidence but my GG Greatfather, Edmund Dwyer married a Mary Marshall in the 1820's and was living in Caherelly which is not that far from Doon. He was not a Land Lord but his son was educated to be an Engineer.
Gerard
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Now that's what I call looking outside the square Gerard, and no I hadn't thought of it. The Dwyer's are on my father's side. I did a DNA test on my mother's side but to be quite honest I can't understand the information. Think I might have to do my father's side too. Many thanks.
The Dwyer name is so common and I felt it might be rather difficult to connect but your suggestion certainly has merit.
Cheers
Jill