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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: GingerVicky on Tuesday 31 March 15 19:21 BST (UK)
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Hi there I am trying to find out more about my great x 5 grandparents. All I know is that they are called Jas whitehead and Ellenor and that they had at least 3 children in St Marylebone in 1792, Edward, 1798, Thomas, and 1804, Henry. I can't find a marriage for them and no date of birth for either or place of birth. How do I find out more about them? Does a lack of marriage record in London mean they were from somewhere else? Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks
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Not sure about the marriage, but another possible child is
John Whitehead
Birth - 11 Oct 1795
Baptism - 15 Nov 1795, Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road
Father - Jas. Whitehead
Mother - Ellen
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Ooh thanks hadn't spotted that one
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Its quite possible that they were never legally married for one reason or another, its was more common than you would think.
Have you looked for a marriage several years after the children were born, that sometimes happened as well.
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There are 2 problems with looking for this marriage:
1st) Not all historic marriages are online so you'll need to check the likes of the subscription sites and family search and see what counties are covered. (City of London, Middlesex & Surrey are with Ancestry, Westminster is with FindMyPast)
2nd) They could have come into London from anywhere.
Once you have done that and searched there you'll need to look at a map and start working out from Marylebone like ripples on a pond and look for alternative on and off-line sources.
(My ancestors married at St Martins in the Fields, Westminster in 1820 having arrived from Dublin & Cornwall)
The main road from the west into Marylebone starts in Wales via Oxford, (Oxford, Bucks, Berks): look at the M40.
Go north from Kings Cross.
Go south into Surrey and Sussex
Go east into Kent
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thanks for all your responses. I have found some in Lancashire that could be them as dates March up but how do I figure out which one is the right one as there are a number of possibilities? James whitehead unfortunately is a pretty common name and there are quite a few james and ellens.
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Have you found burials for the family?
Did James leave a will?
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Not sure about this one but thought I'd post so you could take a look and see what you think
England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973
James WHITEHEAD
Helen SMITH
Marriage Date: 17 Nov 1778
Marriage Place: Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road,St Marylebone,London,England
both Of this Parish Banns 25th Oct, 1st & 8th Nov
No other details
there's also this entry
England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Benjn.Whitehead Died 11 Jun 1787 Born 10 Jun 1785
Baptism Jun 1785 Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, StMarylebone,London,England
parents James & Helen
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He was buried in st Pancras in 1813. Got a will for him which says he was a stone mason and talks about his brothers john and William and his wife ellen. a lot of james whiteheads had brothers called john and William.
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I did see that marriage but according to will he was 49 when he died which would make him born about 1764 Which would make him 14 on that marriage maybe a bit too young? ? Also it was quite a long time before their children were born
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So this is his burial
James Whitehead Age: 49 born abt 1764
Burial Date: 22 Oct 1813
Burial Place: Old St Pancras, St Pancras
Abode New Road
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Is this his wife Eleanor's burial?
Eleanor Whitehead Age: 64 born c1763
Burial Date: 3 Jan 1827
Burial Place: St. Pancras Parish, Middlesex, England
abode St James' Place
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Yep that's them.
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He may have served an apprenticeship which would have prevented him from marrying much before his 21st birthday if at all, so if his age is correct, you would be looking for a marriage after 1785.
Apprenticehips started around age 14 and lasted for at least 7 years.
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Thanks for that information. Very interesting. Have searched for around that time but no luck unfortunately. a few possibilities but nothing stands out.
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You mentioned he left a will... Does it mention any property he owned? If it does it may give you clues as to where they came from, e.g. the land could have been inherited from his father or another relative. Have you checked for wills for the brothers or wife to see if they are any further help?
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In his will it mentions that he was a stone mason who lived on new road st Pancras. He seems to have owned a business with his brother william. The will I'd difficult to read so not entirely sure. the company seems to be something like roal and residuary but could be wrong on that. Think his brother william left a will but haven't read that.
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I think I can see the will - I will have a look at it later tonight to see if I can get anything out of it for you (I've recently been reading a few wills of my own family, so have my 'eye in' for the old clerical script - may as well make use of it while it's still fresh!).
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That would be a big help thanks. I've tried reading it several times and the old script is just so hard to read. I suspect most of it is legal jargon but there are bits of it I can't understand at all. Let me know what you think. Thanks Vicky :)
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Hey Vicky, as usual the lawyers tend to be a little too liberal with the thesaurus and the jargon, but the basics are:
Testator: James Whitehead, New Road, St. Pancras, Middlesex, stone-mason
- to wife, Ellen, all household goods and £20 for her own immediate use
- brothers William and John to have James' share of property and stock-in-trade from the partnership between James and William. This was to be held in trust for Ellen, who was to get an annual annuity of £100 from the rents etc. raised on the property.
- These properties were 'Hornsey Lane Close' - adjoining Hornsey Lane, Upper Holloway, Islington - which was 4 acres, 1 rood, and 13 perches in area, and land on the north side of Warren Street, extending to the New Road, in St. Pancras, which had five buildings built on it.
- Any excess or surplus monies raised from the rents etc. were to be divided equally between his five sons: James, Edward, John, Thomas and Henry, provided they were over 21.
- Each of the sons also received £200 on the same age condition.
- The rest of the will basically says that if either of his brothers die, their role as Trustee of his estate can be filled by one of his sons, if desired (as long as they're 21), or by some other 'credible' person; and that if any of the sons were to die, their share would be equally divided between his brothers or his children, if he had any.
- Executors: brothers John and William
- Witnesses: Benjamin and Philip Goode, Howland Street (obviously lawyers), and Charles Richardson, their clerk
Will written: 15 Sep 1813
Probate granted: 21 Jul 1814
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James' son, Edward, also left a will in which he leaves all his estate to his three children, Sarah, Mary Ann, and Edward. Edward (snr) was buried in St. Pancras 7 Mar 1830, less than a year after his wife, Ann (bd. 1 Jun 1829). Edward's will also mentions a cousin Charles Whitehead, Esq. which allows me to positively state that the William Whitehead, statuary and mason, who died 21 Jul 1828 and left a will is indeed James' brother. William had a number of children with his wife Mary in St. Marylebone:
- Elizabeth, b. ?, still spinster in 1849
- Charles, b. 28 Feb 1800, d. 8 Aug 1849
- Amelia, b. 30 Oct 1801, unmarried in 1849
- Ann, b. 27 Dec 1803, m. Timothy Owlett 27 Mar 1824, St. Pancras
- Harriet, b. 7 Nov 1806, unmarried in 1849
- Jane, b. 20 May 1808, unmarried in 1849
- Peter, b. 15 Jun 1810, d. Dec 1810
- Mary, b. 13 Sep 1811
- Catherine, b. 14 Apr 1814
- Ellen, b. 15 Nov 1815, d. Dec 1833
William's will mentions his wife, only son Charles, and eight daughters, as well as a friend, George Spencer Smith of Baker Street, Portman Square, builder. The only piece of land referenced specifically is a block of meadow or pasture in Tollington, Islington.
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Wow thank you that is amazing. I don't know how you managed to read all that. A lot ifofnteresting information. tells me a lot about James and his brother. Any ideas how I could find out more about where they came from?
Thank you so much for your help. I really appreciate it
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Hey Vicky, I'm having trouble figuring out where they were from originally. They both mention land in Islington, so I suspect that was their centre of business operation, though St. Pancras is not far away either. James' age at death puts his birth c.1764, and William's c.1770 - I haven't been able to find a pair of parents that have kids fitting this description in London yet, so they may well have originated out of town. I will keep looking to see if anything comes up!
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Still on the hunt... I may have found something....
There was a marriage licence issued to a James Whitehead on 13 Aug 1785, allowing him to marry Ellen Roper in Wigan, Lancashire. The timing fits, and the licence stated James was 21 or above, putting his year of birth in 1764 or before - this fits with James Whitehead dying in St. Pancras in 1813 aged 49. The marriage took place the same day in St. Aidan's Chapel, Billinge, Wigan, in the presence of James Bentley and Thomas Shaw. Both James and Ellen signed their names.
Ellen was a widow, her maiden name being Howarth. Her first husband, William Roper (who she married in All Saints' Chapel, Hindley, Wigan on 1 Dec 1778) died in Nov 1781, aged 28, and was buried in Wigan.
The marriage record states this James was a dyer, not a stonemason. This is the only hiccup... That being said, it's possible that William was the first to go into statuary and masoning and James joined him later, deciding the dying trade was not for him...
I have also found a couple, James and Margaret Whitehead, who had sons James in 1764 and William in 1771 in Stockport, Cheshire, which is a bit over 30 miles from Wigan. However, I cannot find a son John for the couple....
I'm pretty happy to say dyer James, son of James & Margaret, married Ellen, widow Roper, but whether he's the same as mason James in London I'm not 100%. Also, given the fact that their son Benjamin was born in Marylebone some two months before the marriage in Wigan, it may not be the right fellow. Someone to think about though...
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Thanks that's great. I did see that marriage before and wonder if it was them as the ages fit. I didn't find as much detail on it so good to have more. I have the same problem in finding a couple with all 3 sons I keep finding loads with 2 nut none with all 3.
I'm not sure benjamin is their son as there was a james and Helen who got married in st Marylebone in 1778 which I think is too early for my james as he would have only been 14 and u think benjamin belongs to them as I think it said helen. Could be wrong.
I did think james was probably from somewhere else Like Lancashire. some whiteheads in my family think we are related to robert whitehead, inventor of the torpedo, who was from Bolton. I have not yet proved a link to him yet but this one family said it was passed down in their family that we are related.
Let me know if you find anything else.
Thank you
Vicky