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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Monmouthshire => Topic started by: diplodicus on Thursday 02 April 15 22:47 BST (UK)
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Greetings Rootschatters,
I have just found the last of my gggreat-grandfathers whose granddaughter Ann married Sidney Vincent in Stockton-on-Tees. I do have all of Alexander's census records up to his death in 1871 and also his two wives Anne Price and Jane Roig and their offspring. Alexander was a watchmaker in Abergavenny.
I am wondering why he ended up in Abergavenny where there seemed to be a real cluster of men engaged in the trade. So questions ....
- Was Abergavenny a centre for watchmaking?
- Why did the Ingrams migrate from Scotland (his son James returned north to Lanarkshire before moving down to Co Durham)?
- Only on his final census entry, his birthplace is recorded as "Scotland". Can anyone confirm his actual place of birth?
My thanks as ever to all who contribute to this fabulous resource.
Malcolm Vincent
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Hi Malcolm
I have Alexander Ingram on my family tree and live a mere five miles from Abergavenny
I am connected to your family way down the line by marriage
I have never heard of a connection with watchmaking
Regards,
Richard
Blaenafon
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Looking through census there are few watchmakers in Abergavenny -so it doesn't look like it was a "centre " for that trade
Suz
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Thank you Suz for looking. I've googled all around the subject and have come to the same conclusion. There were probably watchmakers in every principal town.
Shwmae Richard, there is another Alexander Ingram around who was born after "mine". In fact, Alexander + Ingram seems to occur regularly all over the kingdom(s). Mine is described as a watchmaker in each census and in the lease documents I've found.
Ingrams seem to originate from the Huntly area of Aberdeenshire where there is the highest incidence of the surname. I'm not sure about Scottish records in the eighteen century and whether or not it would be possible to follow Alexander's lineage back.
I started my search for ancestors assuming I was 50% English and 50% Welsh (my mother's side). It seems I have almost no English in me at all! My father's mother was Irish and his grandfather was of Scots/Welsh descent born in Scotland, the granddaughter of Alexander.
That seems to suggest that my great grandfather Sidney Vincent is the only source of my 12˝% of English (Suffolk) genes!
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there is another Ingram who is a watchmaker in Abergavenny - Robert Ingram -born Scotland - 1851/61 pauper in Abergavenny workhouse.
There is also Thomas Ingram watchmaker in Abergavenny -was he one of the sons??
There is also a court case in cardiff in 1854 for Alexander Ingram & Edward Ingram
Suz
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I'm crossing Offa's Dyke in June and have time to spend a day on Abergavenny parish records. Where would I find them please?
Malcolm
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Hi Malcolm.
I think you will find that nearly all Monmouthshires parish records are now in the Gwent Records Office in Ebbw Vale.
Regards
Ray
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Hello all,
Using the Welsh newspapers online the earliest combination of Ingram + watchmaker brings up Robert Ingram, Abergavenny in 1832
http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3392084/ART4/ingram%20%20%20watchmaker
If you haven't already looked, you may find it interesting to trawl through these articles, there were a surprising number of Ingrams about! Edward & Alexander referred to in the 1854 court case above were two 'young lads' accused of sheep stealing. The first definitive one for Alexander Ingram, watchmaker in Abergavenny appears in 1853
http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3395608/ART35/alexander%20ingram
With the info you've supplied these may/may not be relevant:
http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3391117/ART26/alexander%20ingram
http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/page/view/3633033/ART18/alexander%20ingram
When looking for Alexander's birth in Scotland his children's names are a good place to start. Great emphasis was placed on continuity there and names carried through methodically from one generation to another.
brigau
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Ray, thanks for the pointer to Ebbw Vale.
Brigau, many thanks for these articles from the Monmouthshire Merlin. They all (and some others) apply to the Ingram tribe.
It would appear that Robert Ingram lost his shop in 1835 and son Alexander went to gaol as a debtor.
Malcolm
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Hi Malcolm,
It is possible that the Robert Ingram mentioned in the Merlin was Alexander's brother, not his father. The NLW have an 1831 will for John Ingram, watchmaker in Abergavenny. His beneficiaries were his children, possibly listed in order of birth: John, Alexander, Jennet, Jane, Robert and Thomas.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01f8o/
brigau
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A bit more on that will:
Family Search & FreeReg show the following entries from the Abergavenny Register
1796 Jennet Jane bpt 12 Dec (of Rother St) (married Philip Price, a grocer, 1822 Abergavenny)
1796 Robert bpt 12 Dec (of Rother St)
1799 Thomas bpt 28 Aug (of Frogmore Street)
1805 Jane bpt 8 Feb. Her parents were recorded as John Ingram, High Street, Abergavenny, & Sarah Perkins, possibly Jane was illegitimate.
1831 John Ingram was buried 12 April Abergavenny
1838 May 12: Alexander Ingram, widower, a watchmaker of Frogmore St, Abergavenny married Jane Roid of Llwyndu. His father was John Ingram, a watchmaker. Her father was Thomas Roid, a farmer. Witnesses; Chas Richd Philipps & Wm Williams.
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diplodicus, these Ingram watchmakers of yours are so interesting! They are also well documented.
John, I suspect to be the eldest who set up in business in Cardiff had a grandson, also named John who accompanied his own son, Ernest to the South African Wars. John ended up in hospital in Matabeleland and wrote several interesting letters home, published in the Welsh Newspapers Online. There is also a postcard addressed to him in Mashonland on Google Images, as well as a fine timepiece made by John Ingram of Cardiff.
I wondered if you have seen this entry from Clockmakers & Watchmakers of Scotland 1453 – 1900, page 152, author: Donald White 2005
INGRAM, John, Clock & Watchmaker, baptised 23 Mar 1753 at Cairnie, near Huntly, Aberdeenshire, son of James & Janet Ingram of Whitestones Farm. May have beeen apprenticed in Scotland. Brother of Alexander Ingram (1751 – 1829), of Leith, Midlothiaan, author and mathematician, who left him money and his library. Married Ann and had children at Cairnie, before moving to Abergavenny, Monmouthshire, Wales, about 1796, and worked there until his death in 1831. Four sons became clockmakers in Abergavenny and Cardiff.
Alexander Ingram's will can be downloaded from http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
If you haven't used the site before you will need to purchase credits to view the record.
Also this site has interesting background:
http://mongenes.org.uk/Epidemics%20%26%20Sanitation/epidemicsandsani.html
Looks like you not only need to cross Offa's Dyke but also Hadrian's Wall!!
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Br1gau,
As my eldest granddaughter would say, thank you soooooooo much! At last, and thanks to you, I can now connect the Ingrams back to Aberdeenshire where, it would seem, they were a family of some substance. That makes a pleasant change from the long and noble of line of AgLabs who form most of my tree.
Three weeks ago, "Ingram" only appeared once in my tree. Now there are over seventy plus all the offspring of the Ingram females!
I will post any other "nuggets" should I uncover them. Do I yet need a passport for Deeside?
Malcolm
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1838 May 12: Alexander Ingram, widower, a watchmaker of Frogmore St, Abergavenny married Jane Roid of Llwyndu
Just in case you didn't follow the four newspaper links in BeiGau's earlier post ..
Alexander Ingram, charged with neglecting to maintain his wife, Jane, and allowing her to become chargeable to the parish. It was proved that Mr Ingram was willing and had always paid her 3s. per week but she wanted 3s. 6d. He eventualy paid 7s. for a fortnight due, and is to allow her in future 3s. 6d. per week. Mrs Ingram kept the court in continual laughter by her observation to Mr Baker, the attorney for her husband.
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Just in case you're intrested, I have started a thread on Alexander Ingram - mathematician of Leith (grandfather of this Alexander) on the Midlothian pages here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=720282.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=720282.0)
Malcolm
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I found it thank you, but Malcolm, re-reading the Welsh Will for Alexander's father, John Ingram and the entry quoted from the Watchmaker's and Clockmakers of Scotland, isn't his grandfather James? The Alexander Ingram, mathematician in Leith is referred to as John's brother in the entry. He is therefore your Alexander's uncle.
I hope you left a little more than 3/6d behind for housekeeping when you left for Scotland ;D
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Thanks for spotting my silly mistake. My tree is corrected.
Whitestone Farm is still on the Ordnance Survey, about five miles west of Aberdeen on the A944 at GR808069.
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My late mother was an Ingram and I’m related to the clockmakers in Abergavenny
I was doing some research and I discovered this site.
Best wishes
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Hello cousin, and welcome to this brilliant community. My “Suffolk Vincent’s” tree is public on Ancestry and it would be good to flesh out the Ingram branches.
Best wishes,
Malcolm