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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: Tomster on Monday 06 April 15 23:32 BST (UK)
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This is my first Post, so please bear with me.
I am looking for the date, place and even cause of the death of my great grandfather born about 1850 in England: John Bennett. John came to Canada in February, 1893 with his wife Jessie and 2 children: Herbert and Doris. Another son, Edgar was born in Canada in June 1893. The 1911, Canada Census lists him as an Advertising Agent (could have been a Traveler/Salesman). They lived at 172 Christie Street in York/Toronto. He disappeared about 1902-03. My Grandfather Edgar had no recollection of what happened to him. I can't find any listing of his death. Any help in solving this family mystery would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tom
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You have put that he disappears about 1902/1903, but then say he is listed as an advertising agent in 1911 census. Could you explain please?
Was his wife listed as a widow when she dies?
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Just putting the 1901 census:
John Bennett Married Age: 51
Birth 19 Feb 1850 Birthplace: England Immigration Year: 1893
Racial or Tribal Origin: Eng (English) Nationality: Canadian
Religion: Church Of England Occupation: Advertising Ag
Province: Ontario District: York (west/ouest) District Number: 131
Sub-District: Toronto (City/Cité) Ward/Quartier No 5
John Bennett 51
Jessie Bennett 34
Herbert Bennett 11
Dorris Bennett 10
Edgar Bennett 7
Had he been married before Jessie?
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Hi Tom:
It might be a good idea to ask the moderator to move this topic to the Canada board.
sami
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Sorry that was a typo. I was the 1901 Canada Census. Thanks for pointing that out. Tom
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Ok, thanks, I did think that when I found the 1901.
You have emailed me something about she is down as a widow in 1904. Any reason to dispute this, or can we narrow the death to between 1901 and 1904?
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If you believe he was alive in 1911, maybe he left the family and his wife tried to save face by calling herself a widow... potentially that might also account for why Edgar knows so little about the 'death' because in fact the truth of the departure was something not spoken about.
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Marriage for Jeanette Bennett June 1904 York Ontario to George Fisher
1911 census Richmond Riding British Columbia
George Fisher age 35
Jeanette Fisher age 40 born England
Harbart ( Herbert ) Fisher b 1890 England
Dovis ( Doris ) Fisher b 1892 England
Edgar Fisher b 1893 Ontario
Emily Fisher b 1895 Ontario
James Fisher b 1897 Ontario
Gladys Fisher b 1898 Ontario
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Hi,
Just to add to Rosie's find of the 1904 Marriage,
Jeanette is listed as age 32, spinster, not widow ??? parents Frederick Bennett and Jeanette Richards.
Cheers,
DB
Added: Oops, sorry Tom, we forgot......Welcome to rootschat :)
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That 1911 census that has been posted has Emily, James and Gladys as ages 6, 4 and 3, but years of birth of 1895, 1897 and 1898.
As tomster is aware of her second marriage, perhaps he can comment on the births.
Initially I was looking for them as children of a first marriage of George.
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Hi,
Just to add to Rosie's find of the 1904 Marriage,
Jeanette is listed as age 32, spinster, not widow ??? parents Frederick Bennett and Jeanette Richards.
Cheers,
DB
Just looking at this marriage again something not right as this Jeanette's father is Frederick Bennett
??? ..So this marriage has the children of John Bennett and Jessie in the 1911 census now Fisher ???
Added: Oops, sorry Tom, we forgot......Welcome to rootschat :)
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Has any one found them in the 1891 census for England ? as they never left till 1893 so they should be around ???
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A public tree on ancestry has this marriage, and both from Tunbridge Wells (possibly)
London marriages
John Bennett
Age: 34 Spouse: Jessie Florence Fald Age: 29
20 Aug 1888 Parish: St Luke, Westbourne Park Westminster
Father Name: George Bennett Spouse Father: Henry Fald
Added: Possibly this is tomster's tree.
Added: It is Field on the original
ADDED;
Totally wrong marriage, family still there in 1901 etc etc.
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Just checked some of the marriages for the family the father is listed as John Bennett mother Jeanette Richards Marriage for Timothy Edgar Bennett lists the father as John middle name but I can't make it out and his Mother as Janette Fisher
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This is proposed as Herbert's death, as he has moved to America:
Herbert Bennett b 9 Jul 1890 d 26 Feb 1945 Los Angeles
His mother's maiden name was Richardson
Whilst this is his application for naturalisation in Los Angeles, stating he was married in August 19th, 1919:
Herbert Bennett Age: 45 b 9 Jul 1890 Leeds, England
He arrived in US in 1922, wife's name was Laura
Birth July 1890 in Leeds - nothing showing?
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Just noticed this has been moved from Beginners to Canada Board.
As a lot of the family end up in America, and evidence from there, why move it?
I appreciate that the initial request was to find his death, but to try to find the wedding of parents, birth of children and all the other related information, it is not specific to Canada.
Just an opinion/query.
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I requested that it be put on the Canada board only in response to a suggestion by another poster. Since I am new here, I don't know where the best place to post it would be. Any suggestions? Thanks, Tom
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No problem, just wondered why the move as your family travelled around.
Glad you have managed to find your way back.
Do you think Herbert was born Leeds, or was that just what he thought but got wrong (Have you found any evidence of the family in Leeds?)
Similarly any sighting of a Bennett/Richardson marriage?
If she claimed she was a spinster when she married Mr Fisher, was she a very good liar, or just totally deluded? Or had she mis-understood the question, and substituted her and her ex-husband's details for her parents? Or is her real father Frederick?
Also, Richards or Richardson?
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Hi Tom,
I think that your post is fine where it is. Border crossing was so frequent, that if we can't find
them in Canada, then on to the USA.
Cheers,
DB
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All good questions Pat. I think Herb was born in Leeds as he declares that on his US Naturalization application. I have not found any evidence on the Bennett/Richards or Bennett/Richardson marriage. Given the evasive answers as to birthdate, I think Jessie was pretty good liar and she in some cases substituted her ex-husband's details for her own. I have only seen references to Richards. I suspect that it is Richards since her daughter Doris, on her marriage licence application, indicates that her mother's name is Jennette Richards. Doris indicates her dad's name is John Manly Bennett.
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To add on to Rosie's reply :) about Timothy Bennett's marriage, I think that father John's middle
name is Manuel. Perhaps someone else can have look and see what they think.
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Genealogy/DisplayGenealogyImage?k=aa1ac4e0-e40a-4793-b6bd-9294cf389767
Timothy's death cert. says father is John Bennett and mother is Janette Richards
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Genealogy/DisplayGenealogyImage?k=e0e47d0a-e13a-4dc1-bde4-cbbeb6d48377
Cheers,
DB
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Just to add on to chempat's reply :) Herbert's marriage to Laura Nellie Warner in 1919,
Herbert gives his place of birth as Seeds ??? I think that should be Leeds.
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Genealogy/DisplayGenealogyImage?k=871403d6-7466-47d4-ac52-f1982d9af010
Cheers,
DB
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Not finding any birth records for the children ??? did come across this 1891 census record for a Herbert Bennett age 9 months in the District Babies Castle Home for Destitute Children
Civil Parish Hawkurst Kent England
I'm beginning to wonder if the couple did marry
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There is a Leeds in Kent - does it actually say Leeds Yorkshire - or is everyone just assuming it is Yorkshire?
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That 1911 census that has been posted has Emily, James and Gladys as ages 6, 4 and 3, but years of birth of 1895, 1897 and 1898.
As tomster is aware of her second marriage, perhaps he can comment on the births.
Initially I was looking for them as children of a first marriage of George.
I think we have all learned to be sceptical about birth years and months on census records. These must be mistakes, either by the enumerator or wrong information from the informant regarding the birth years. Randomly picked James and he was born 23 August 1905 Yoirk Toronto Ontario according to the birth record
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FMXB-P96
but the death record for James gives 21 st August 1904 - so another discrepancy
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11742-31019-48?cc=1538285
The death cert for Jeanette Fisher gives birth as 15 November 1870 England ::)
Jeanette died 2 January 1917 Vancouver BC (although it does say 1916 on another part of the cert)
Name of father :- Bennett but no other details of Mother etc., - Had been in BC for 7 years.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=26259624&ref=acom
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11566-121282-85?cc=1538285
Chempat - In your reply 14 - it was copy and paste entries - did you know copy and paste is not allowed on the site, it has to be your own transcription. Just in case you post death record information on USA boards, the moderator does not like social security numbers been given in posts. Noticed you had only been a member since Oct 2014 so you may have been unaware of this rule,
Chempat - There is a Leeds in Kent - does it actually say Leeds Yorkshire - or is everyone just assuming it is Yorkshire?
No I never assume anything in genealogy - so Leeds is an "open" ended place of birth.
Oops - sorry Tom - just noticed your ancestry tree with loads of info -
Sandra
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James Fisher is with step-sister Doris Wade in 1921 48-49th W Vancouver British Columbia.
Frederick Wade 33 Born NB
Dores Wade 29 Born England
Ruth Wade 7 Born BC
George Wade 6 Born BC
Jack Wade 3 Born BC
James Fisher 15 Born Ont. Brother-in-law.
May McPherson 50 Born Ont. Aunt.
Sandra
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Have you thought about e-mailing Toronto Public Library to see if they can find you an obituary for John Bennett between 1901 and 1904 ???
http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/
Sandra
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Was hoping you would pop up here Sandra ;D it's all a bit strange on the father of Jeanette/Jessie is it Bennett or Richards ? don't you think ???
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It is strange Rosie and I'm not convinced its either of those names. ::)
If Jeanette was born November 1870 as per death cert then these were the births for that quarter ??? :-
Buckingham Jeanette Edith - Depwade 4b 210 (its not this one - probate in UK 1964 - married name Churchyard)
Cannons Jeanette St Clair - Wandsworth 1d 500 (buried 3 Feb 1872 - Norwood Cemetery, Norwood Road, Lambeth)
Hardaway Jeanette Alice - Brentford 3a 47 (married William James Innes - St John, Isleworth - 12 Dec 1891)
Lingham Jeanette - Maidstone 2a 581 (couldn't see anything so far on this one)
Nuttall Jeanette Blanche - W. Ham 4a 34 (married William Butler - died 1933 UK)
Smith Jeanette Shoreditch - 1c 103 (hmmm - couldn't be certain on this one so far)
Thompson Jeanette Keighley - 9a 199 (married Albert James Oakley - 1894 - Yorkshire.)
Nothing for Jeanette Richards/Richardson in that quarter ???
Sandra
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Hi Tom,
Noticed your anc tree did not have the Canadian Attestation Papers for Herbert Bennett - they are in the process of being digitalised but you are lucky and the letter "B" is completed.
If you use the link below - you will then see a pdf option to the right - click on that - it takes a while to down load but it will give you the complete military file for Herbert. Quite interesting documentation to have.
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=38173
Regards
Sandra
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Chempat - In your reply 14 - it was copy and paste entries - did you know copy and paste is not allowed on the site, it has to be your own transcription. Just in case you post death record information on USA boards, the moderator does not like social security numbers been given in posts. Noticed you had only been a member since Oct 2014 so you may have been unaware of this rule,
Sandra
Your post at 18.28 today looks like a direct copy and paste, could you explain the difference?
Thank-you
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Thanks Sandra. I haven't contacted the Toronto Public Library. Tom
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Chempat - In your reply 14 - it was copy and paste entries - did you know copy and paste is not allowed on the site, it has to be your own transcription. Just in case you post death record information on USA boards, the moderator does not like social security numbers been given in posts. Noticed you had only been a member since Oct 2014 so you may have been unaware of this rule,
Sandra
Your post at 18.28 today looks like a direct copy and paste, could you explain the difference?
Thank-you
Sorry - No that is not correct - it was transcribed as per the bmd entry - if I copy and paste I would get the other bits on the end - info etc...............
Just rechecked and some surname were in capitals - mine are not.
Sandra
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Sandra I have had the same problem trying to find them in England not having much luck ??? we need to get the death for John to see who his parent's are ......Their children not showing which is strange ::)
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Not finding them on census or the birth records as you said Rosie. All 4 travelled together on that Canadian passenger List 25 February 1893 - age of Jeanette/Jessie could be varying - passenger list looked like 29 and then 27 alongside but death cert says born 1870 which would have made her 23 years ??? Strange........................ :-\
Regards
Sandra
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I noticed on the immigration record there was someone else in that group but could not make out the name was wondering if it was the Aunt May McPherson who was with some of the family in later census's or was she related to the George Fisher
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Writing was really blotchy ::) - the surname looked like Gosnell and I thought the age was 29 but never turned anything up with that combination.
Sandra
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Writing was really blotchy ::) - the surname looked like Gosnell and I thought the age was 29 but never turned anything up with that combination.
Sandra
Yes had another look ruled out McPherson need to leave it for now :)
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Think I'm brain dead for the moment on this one Rosie. Think it might remain a brick wall. :'(
Sandra
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Thank-you for the explanation as to the difference between copy and paste, and transcribe.
I think you have edited that 18.28 entry and added additional information, but you are correct that a direct copy and paste would leave some surnames as capitals.
I think the info at the end of each line would be cut by anyone who was pasting anything over.
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No, I have not edited - I have added to that particular entry - reply 28 to try and prove or disprove if any of the entries could have been the person who we are seeking.
The comment I made about copy and paste was just to give you the heads up about a rule on this site which you obviously didn't know about, having only been a member since last October. Don't worry about it, a moderator has modified your post 14 for you. I am sorry you have taken umbrage and cannot let the matter go. Would be grateful if we can move on and concentrate on what this thread is all about.
Regards
Sandra
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Ancestry has an entry in the 1891 census for what they believe to be M Durrett, but it could easily be John Bennett, born possibly Tunbridge (ancestry believe Mutssa).
Ancestry has the wife as Vernette, unfortunately looks like Charlotte not Jeanette.
But there are children Herbert and Doris, plus older children
Just checked to see if I can find them in 1901, and they are still there, unfortunately, he is Rex, not John.
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On the Canadian arrivals list for 25th February 1893, D Bennett is shown as an infant, so under 1 year.
This disagrees with her birth recorded in 1901 census as 1st January 1891.
If she was actually under 1 in 1893, then she will not be with her brother Herbert in 1891 census. Bother.
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On the Canadian arrivals list for 25th February 1893.....
....also on that arrivals list the passenger who appears to be with the Bennetts is a male and seems to be heading to a different destination. Couldn't read it properly but thought it might be Kalispell. Still couldn't make sense of the name though.
Certainly has been confusing. I've been looking for the 1891 census entry in UK as well - but no luck.
sami
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Doris was born January 1 1892 in Leeds,
URL of this page: http://search.findmypast.com/record?id=bmd%2fb%2f1892%2f3%2faz%2f00
0045%2f354&_ga=1.152197562.221939020.1417558438
And Herbert was born 9 Jul 1890 in Leeds
URL of this page: http://search.findmypast.com/record?id=bmd%2fb%2f1890%2f1%2faz%2f00
0046%2f133
I think getting the original documents may reveal more about John and Jessie?
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Hi Tom:
I've been following along but have been quite confused by names/dates etc. Have you turned up any of them on the 1891 UK census?
sami
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Unfortunately not.
Tom
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I think getting the original documents may reveal more about John and Jessie?
If those are the correct ones for Herbert and Doris the originals would certainly help. Those FindMyPast URL links would not open up for me. Just wondering - are those entries using the surname Bennett?
sami
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Sorry Sami. I tried and it didn't work either. If you search for Doris or Herbert Bennett with birthdays in 1892 and 1890 respectively in Findmypast, it will work.
Tom
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If you search for Doris or Herbert Bennett with birthdays in 1892 and 1890 respectively in Findmypast, it will work.
You have Doris - born January 1 1892 in Leeds - but the Bramley, Yorkshire birth registration for 1892 is for the 3rd quarter (Jul-Aug-Sep) which seems a bit late as a registration for your Doris. Couldn't find one that seemed likely from 1891 or 1892. That's why I'm wondering if the children's births were registered under the Bennett name or another name.
sami
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Sami
The Jan 1 maybe wrong, but Bramley is just west adjacent to Leeds.
Tom
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Hi Tom:
Maybe its worth a try then - if she's the right Doris it could certainly answer some questions.
sami
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Sorry, had discounted that birth yesterday, but had not posted the information - it was one of the reasons why I asked about Leeds in Kent, particularly with any Tunbridge connections.
Free reg has the Bramley Doris baptised in 1895
File 21413
St Peter Bramley (Leeds)
Register Number 851
Birth 17 August 1892 Baptism Date 21 April 1895
Doris
Father William Father Surname Bennett Occupation Innkeeper
Mother Sarah
Address Barley Mow Inn, Bramley
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This seems to be one of those threads that could go on forever more without a conclusion. It could be John and Jeanette were never married, John could have been married previously (he is a lot older than Jeanette) Jeanette could have been married previously and the first two children hers from that marriage, or they could have been illegitimate and have taken the Bennett name. Without the birth records for those 2 children, Herbert and Doris it may be impossible to take this thread further.
Just a note that I did check out a Jeanette Janet Molenkamp born 17 Oct. 1868 36 Woodstock Street, West Ham, Essex who also went to British Columbia and married surname Fisher. A family tree entry gave her date of death the same as Jeanette Bennett Fisher which was incorrect as Jeanette Molenkamp Fisher died 6 th July 1933. So another one discounted. Have advised the tree owner and gave them a link to the correct record so that they can correct. (hopefully ;))
Still think it is worth an e-mail to Toronto Public Library to see if it is possible they can locate any death/obituary information for John Bennett between 31 st March 1901 and June 1904.
Will bow out for now Tom but will obviously post anything constructive if I find anything.
Regards
Sandra
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Chempat/Sandra/Sami
Thanks everybody for all your efforts. Too bad about the Doris link. Did you all have the same experience with Herbert? I will contact the Toronto Public Library.
Tom
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I couldn't find a Herbert that looked right. Let us know what you hear from the Toronto Public Library.
sami
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Hi Tom:
This is a long shot :)
I have still been looking in the 1891 UK census - and I've been trying all sorts of name combinations. This is probably not right, but I found this family in 1891 and have not been able to find them in the 1901 Census. So I wonder if this Manley family are John / Jessie / Herbert in 1891:
1891 Census - RG12 / 3714 / 122 / 24
John Manley - H - M - 41 - born 1850 - Insurance Secretary - St Pancras, Middlesex
Jessie Manley - Wife - M - 24 - born 1867 - Sydenham, Surrey
Herbert Manley - Son - 2 - born 1889 - Leeds, Yorkshire.
Its just a thought, but there are some interesting coincidences between the names, dates, Herbert's place of birth, even John's occupation.
Couldn't find a marriage that I thought was right and also couldn't find a birth for Doris.
.....and of course, absolutely no idea why they would emigrate to Canada under the surname Bennett.
sami
....added.....and this may tie in with why Doris, on her marriage licence application, ...... indicates her dad's name is John Manly Bennett.
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Good, sami.
I was starting to look at people with surname Richards and Richardson, but I thought Manly looked more like Manuel on that document so had not tried that as a surname.
Will now try and disprove what you have found - hope no-one can. :)
Added:
It really does not look like Manley on the marriage information - uel or even uch but not ley
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That John Manley was previously married to Lavinia, and she seems to be back in London, still married, without him but with children, in 1891 etc.
From her 1891 information, her 2 youngest children: Arthur was born in Leeds in about 1881/1882 but Ellen was born in Twickenham in 1887/1888 (AMENDED: That age is not clear on image)
Added:
This marriage?
September quarter 1869
Lavinia Sophia Clare also Lavinia Sophia Gilliam-Clare Pancras 1b 319
John Manley Pancras 1b 319
So Jessie and John could not marry if his wife was still alive.
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In July 19th 1885 4 Manley children are baptised in London. All have John and Lavinia Sophia Gillham as parents, but his profession is not specified, and all children have the name Tudor amongst their christian names. (Births 1878, 1879, 1881 and 1884, Henry, Maud Emily, Arthur and Ellen Caroline.
The family is in some trees on ancestry, his death not shown.
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3 of the Lavinia/John Manley children are with their uncle, Joseph Clare, in 1881:
Edith Manley age 9 born Canning Town, John Manley age 8 born Kentish Town and Henry Manley age 3 born Leeds
Just putting birth for Lavinia:
December quarter 1846 Lavinia Sophia Gillham Bedford 6 33
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Hi chempat
They do look like a possible group. I followed the Manley connection a bit and also started looking at possible matches for Jessie (Jeanette/Jennette) using the Richards/Richardson surname. It also made me wonder if Herbert and even Doris had been baptised under her maiden name rather than either Manley or Bennett.
If they are the right family it helps to clarify Jessie's birthdate at around 1867 which also holds up on the 1901 Canadian census.
Still, I would be interested in hearing what Tom or any of the other researchers think about this before following it too much further. One question now is the use of the name Bennett.
sami
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Yes.
Would like some children's birth certificates, and some consistent birth dates.
So, possibly a Jeanette/Jessie from Sydenham.
Well, there is this one, but Richardson is not an unusual surname:
Births September quarter 1866 Lewisham 1d 787
Jessie J Richardson
Added:
No, she died in 1867.
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Hi Sami/Chempat
I would put my money on Manley provided by Doris (my great aunt) rather than Manuel provided by Timothy (my grandfather). Timothy had a way of not being accurate about his families info.
I had thought John/Jessie had changed names when they came to Canada and followed that up by looking at passenger lists recorded in England. At that point they declared themselves as Bennett. I too thought of Manley but did not follow that up. Great job you are doing, I can't wait to see where this may lead.
Tom
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OK.
So in 1871 they are just married
Parish Islington St George St George London
Reg district Islington Islington West
70 107 274 67 35
John Manley 21 Insurance Agent St Pancras, Middlesex,
Lavinia J Manley 22 Bedford
and a monthly nurse.
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You really need to get their marriage certificate for confirmation of his Father, but this looks like him:
1851 census
Parish St Pancras
Street address: 31 Harrington Square (??)
Reg. dist. Pancras Somers Town
2 81 1496 69 26
John Manley 33 Head member of the royal college of surgeons St Pancras
Ellen Manley 31 wife Holborn
Orlando Manley son 2
xxxx John Manley son 1 St Pancras
Joseph Manley 69 Father Superannuated clerk of victuallers Office Somerset Place born Devonport Devon
Mary Manley 67 Mother born Spalding Lincolnshire
2 servants
They are in Brighton in 1861.
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Lavina Sophia Gilliam Manley divorced John Manley for cruelty - petition filed 4 th March 1885 - final decree 3 November 1885 - quite a few pages of court minutes
Sandra
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John Manley born 19th February 1850, baptised 28th September 1851, father John, surgeon, mother Ellen.
Added:That date of birth agrees with John Bennett's birth date on 1901 census.
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Just noticed that Joseph and Mary (79 and 77)( he is retired from civil service), are also in Brighton in 1861.
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Baptism of John Manley
12 Nov 1817 Father Joseph Manley (victualler's office)
Mother Mary Manley
Parish of St Pancras Camden
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London Workhouse Admissions - 6 February 1886 - Kensington and Chelsea - 6 th February 1886
(Source:- Britten Street, Old and New Workhouses, 1885-1886)
7th week of the quarter ending March 1886 - Lavina Manley aged 36 years. Edith Manley aged 14 years. John Manley aged 12 years. Henry aged 8 years.
Next Page - Discharged to Infirmary
Lavina 36 - Henry 8 - Maud 7 - Arthur 5 and Ellen 5/12
Sandra
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Reading these details about John Manley makes me wonder if he didn't die before Jessie married George Fisher in 1904 but just up and left - leaving Jessie and the children behind. Be interesting to see when, where, and under what name his death is recorded.
Have been looking into possible Jessie's and have been wondering about this one. Haven't really found anything using the names Jeanette or Jennette.
1881 Census - RG11 / 710 / 83 / 14
Edward Whyatt
Ellen Whyatt - wife - 21 - dressmaker - Surrey Bermondsey
Eugene - son - 7 mo
Kate Richardson - sister in law - unm - 16 - Surrey Bermondsey
Jessie Richardson - sister in law - unm - 14 - Surrey Camberwell
+ 3 Boarders
1871 Census - RG10 / 726 / 37 / 67
James Richardson - H - Widow - 52 - born 1818 - Traveller - Westmorland
Helen M M Richardson - Dau - 11 - born 1860 - Surrey
Alice A Richardson - Dau - 8 - born 1863 - Surrey
Kate M Richardson - Dau - 6 - born 1865 - Surrey
Jessie Richardson - Dau - 4 - born 1867 - Surrey
But there are so many Richards/Richardsons to choose from it needs some other information to help narrow it down. Do you have any ideas Tom on why they travelled under the surname Bennett? Or why Jeanette lists her parents as Frederick Bennett and Jeanette Richards when she married George Fisher in 1904?
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sami,
I have just came downstairs, made my breakfast, and thought - wonder if he left her like he left his first one.
So, did he change his name again?
But presumably Jessie knew about his history, and went with his first change of name.
But she would keep quiet about his 'death/disappearance' if she had married again and he was still alive.
If Jessie was from Sydenham, but met with him in Leeds, why did she move up there?
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John/Jessie's behaviour is indeed puzzling. Why they would adopt the name Bennett if that was not their original name is a mystery. My dad (Dr. Norman Thomas Bennett) reached a point in his search efforts (before there was an internet) that maybe the family name was not Bennett. I travelled the same road as most of you have and hit one brick wall after another. I did think that maybe Manley was a possibility but did not give it any serious consideration until I had exhausted all possibilities with the Bennett name, and here we are. It definitely looks as if Bennett is not the real family name.
Another piece of info that may lend support for the name Manley. Doris (my grandfather's sister) told my dad that there was a medical doctor in the grandparents or great-grandparents (Maybe that inspired my dad to become a medical doctor?). He did quite a bit of research to see if any Bennetts with the right dates and places were doctors but was unable to find any.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
The divorce papers gave the reason as cruelty by the petitioner Lavina. There are many pages of the court minutes - here is a response in a letter written by John Manley.
I John Manley of 7 Sandycombe Road St Margarets Twickenham in the County of Middlesex of no occupation and make no oath and says as follows.
1. I am the respondent in this action
2. In reference to paragraph 2 of the petition in this action I say that the petitioner herself is of a violent temper and irritating disposition. She is also grossly extravagant and without an idea of value of money and as a consequence been a bad house keeper. She is also addicted to using bad language before the children, servants and strangers and for these reasons she is not fit to have the sole control of the children.
3. In reference to paragraph 5 of the petition I say that the petitioner unlawfully absented herself for about 9 months from her home leaving 5 young children (one an infant) on my hands. I went to the house in question which I believed and believe to be a house of ill repute and where the petitioners sister who is a person well known as of easy virtue had taken rooms. I endeavoured to induce petitioner to leave that house but she refused and a quarrel ensured. I did not kick the petitioner then or at any other time.
4. The petitioner has repeatedly left her home and children and often for long periods (extending from 2 weeks to 9 months) without my consent and on one of such occasions she left because one of the children was ill and she did not wish to attend to it.
5. In reference to paragraph 11 of the petition I say that the petitioner first asked for a dog in the house as a protection . Subsequently I made several efforts to get rid of the dog by sale or gift and once or twice offered to the petitioner to destroy the dog, which she would not permit.
6. With reference to paragraph 12 of the petition I say that on the occasions referred to the petitioner returned home, after an unauthorised absence of 5 weeks and endeavoured to come into the house in company with a woman who I and my servants took to be intoxicated. Petitioner and the woman dashed into the house after I had told the petitioner that I would not allow the woman to come in. I then sent for the police to remove the woman (who had refused to leave) and on hearing me send for the police, petitioner and the woman at once left together. I did not strike the petitioner.
7. In reference to paragraph 13 of the petition I say that with a knife I did destroy the clothes in question, under the gropest provocation and as a protest of petitioners extravagance and unreasonable and continuous demands for new clothes which she did not require. I just previously having spent £7 repairing a sealskin in question and having lately laid out large sums of money in dress for her. I never threatened to stab her or tried to strangle her but simply pushed her away from me.
8. In reference to paragraph 14 of the petition I say that on the occasion referred to the petitioner had been for hours behaving in a most violent manner and using language of the most disgraceful character before the children and servants. She finally rushed on me and received a blow and which she herself afterwards admitted to being accidental.
continuing below....................
-
9. I say that the petitioner was always causing quarrels more especially at meals and in the presence of the children and others and if I happened to have anything in my hand at the time and I stopped shaving and or carving to expostulate she was in the habit of accusing me of threatening her with whatever I had in my hand. I never then or at any other time threatened her with a razor, knife or any other weapon.
10. In reference to paragraph 19 of the petition I say that on the occasion referred to I did during another violent quarrel commenced by the petitioner slap her face and that a very much decayed tooth which had been ready to break off at the slightest touch was thereby broken. The petitioner did not even mention this fact until 2 days after when being in a good temper, she laughingly added "You must now get me a new tooth which I have long been wanting" or words to that effect.
11. In reference to paragraph 20 of the petition I say that Mrs Vernon came to 7 Sandycombe Road to complain of a disgraceful disturbance created by the petitioner at her (Mrs Vernon's) house on the previous day and to exact a promise from the petitioner not to repeat the annoyance. Mrs Vernon was accompanied by her brother and was perfectly temperate in her language and demands. Petitioner was extremely violent and made all sorts of disgraceful charges against me (which caused the two servants to leave on the spot) and endeavoured to assault Mrs Vernon. I simply interposed and kept them apart the quarrel lasting all day with the neighbours and others listening outside and though grievously provoked I used no violence beyond what was necessary to keep petitioner and Mrs Vernon apart and I did not strike the petitioner or turn her into the street . She left of her own accord.
12. I say that I have never been guilty of legal cruelty to the petitioner and have never used violence except on the occasion's herein set forth under serious provocation.
13. I say that there is no collusion or connivance between me and the petitioner in any way whatsoever.
Sworn at No8 Whitehall Place in the County of Middlesex on this day the 25 th March 1885
Regards
Sandra
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Lavina Sophia Gilliam Manley responds ..............................
Lavina lives at No 10 Madras Place, Highbury, Middlesex
1. States she is the petitioner and married John Manley 28 August 1869 at the register Offcie St Pancras.
2. After said marriage, cohabited with John Manley at various places and & Sandycombe Road. The issue of said marriage was 6 children. Gives names and dates for each.
3. The said John Manley is a man of violent temper and has habitually treated me with neglect and unkindness and cruelty and has habitually used abusive and threatening language to me and that on numerous occasions he has assaulted and struck me with knives and razors and thrown things at me.
4. That in or about the month of February 1881 soon after the birth of the fifth child, the said john Manley at Leeds in the County of York, kicked me.
5. That in or about the month of November 1882 at the house of Mrs Sutch in Paulton Square Chelsea in the County of Middlesex, the said John Manley kicked me on the leg.
6. Between May 1883 and December 1883 while I and the same John Manley were living at 92 St Augustines Road. Camden Square in the County Of Middlesex , he frequently assaulted and struck me and threw things at me and assaulted the children in my presence.
7. That when I was living at Hastings in the County of Sussex from about the month of December 1883 until February 1884, the said John Manley frequently assaulted and struck and pinched me.
8. That in and during the years 1883 and 1884, the said John Manley has frequently absented himself from his home until late hours and sometimes for the whole night and sometimes several nights.
9. That on numerous occasions in and since the month of April 1884 at No7 Sandycombe Road aforesaid John Manley has assaulted and struck me.
-
10. The said John Manley struck me several times at 7 Sandycombe Road shortly before the birth of the youngest child which occurred on the 12 June 1884.
11. That the said John Manley persisted in having a large dog in the house not with standing my remonstrations and that I was extremely alarmed and annoyed by the said dog.
12. That on or about the 19 September 1884 the said John Manley refused me entry to the house and struck me on the arm and pushed me down the steps and threatened to give me in charge of police.
13. On 7 th October 1884, the said John Manley dragged me into the dining room of 7 Sandycombe Road and tore my hat and clothes and cut my boots and stood over me with a knife and tried to strangle me and that when I tried to escape from him, he followed me and again assaulted me.
14. That on or about the 20th October 1884 at 7 Sandycombe Road, the said John Manley assaulted and struck me and gave me a blow on the face and a black eye.
15. That on or about the 27th October 1884 at 7 Sandycombe Road, the said John Manley held me down and threatened me with a razor which he held in his hand.
16. That on or about the 6th November at 7 Sandycombe Road, theaforesaid John Manley struck me.
17. That in the month of December 1884 aforesaid John Manley threatened me with a carving knife.
18. That on Christmas Day 1884 at 7 Sandycombe Road, aforesaid John Manley assaulted and kicked me.
19. That in the month pf January 1885, John Manley struck me on my mouth and knocked out one of my teeth and otherwide assaulted me, while the baby was in my arms.
20. That on the 12 th February 1885, aforesaid John Manley and a woman called Anne Vernon in his presence assaulted and beat me and turned me out of the house into the hall and on a subsequent occasion on the same day, the sais John Manley struck me a severe blow in the mouth and loosened 3 of my teeth, cut my lip and otherwise assaulted me.
21. I say that there is no collusion or connivance between me and the said John Manley in anyway whatsoever.
Sworn at No50 Lincoln Inn Fields in the County of Middlesex -
Dated 4th March 1885
Court Minutes
Petition Filed 16 March 1885
Decree Nisi 15 January 1886
Final decree 10 August 1886
Regards
Sandra
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Tomster,
Have you got any consistent birth dates for Herbert or Doris?
If Herbert was definitely born in Leeds(as on 1891 census) it would be very useful to find his birth.
Ask on West Riding board for any pointers?
-
Birth Dates were Herbert 9 July 1890 and Doris 1 January 1892
Sandra
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The marriage cert is attached to the court papers - probably same info you already have.
By License - 18 August 1869 - register Office St Pancras.
John Manley was 19 years of age - bachelor - Mercantile Clerk - 15 St Augustine Road - Father John Manley (deceased) Surgeon.
Lavinia Sophia Gilliam Clare - 20 years - spinster - 15 Winchester Street - Pentonville - Father Joseph Gilliam Clare - Gentleman
In the presence of James Pierce and E Barkwith.
Sandra
-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01f51/
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7983278
Sandra
-
Definitely not an 'amicable divorce' - thanks for posting those Sandra.
I'm no longer sure where or what to look for.
I've looked on the 1906, 1911, 1916 and 1921 Canda census for any likely John Manley/Bennett names. Unfortunately there too many to choose from.
Wondered if he moved back to the UK and died there as John Manley/Bennett. Again too many to choose from.
Started looking for Herbert (1888/89) birth registrations as either Bennett/Manley/Richards/Richardsons - again too many but I thought some Herbert Richardsons in Yorkshire might work.
Started looking for Doris (1891/92/93) birth registrations under the various name combinations but too many again to choose from.
I'm stumped.
sami
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Hi Sami,
It was interesting reading through those Court Minutes - obviously the John Manley ones came first so your thinking - oh perhaps it wasn't his fault the marriage brohe down but then you carry on and read the reply and it turns into "tit for Tat". Think they really had to prove things in those days compared with divorce today.
John Manley also had to pay into the Court various amounts of money for the Petitioner and his own legal fees.
Regards
Sandra
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Birth Dates were Herbert 9 July 1890 and Doris 1 January 1892
Sandra
I don't think we can go by these exact dates - the 1891 UK census implies Herbert is born 1889. But who knows.
It can't have been easy for Lavinia - I see she is still living in 1911 (with her son Arthur).
So he was free to marry Jessie after 1886 - but didn't. Says something about him.
-
The Canadian Attestation Papers/California Death Index/WW2 Draft/Naturalization Records were consistent and all give the 9 July 1890 for Herbert ???
11 July 1889 on the 1901 Canadian Census.
Many woman didn't like to say they were divorced or widowed and often still claimed to be married, perhaps they felt it was a stigma.
Sandra
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I asked what Tomster thought was the most likely birth dates for Herbert and Doris.
The Canadian 1901 census has the same birthday for John Bennett as for John Manley from his baptism, and Herbert is 11 July 1889 on that Canada census.
If Herbert was definitely born in Leeds, as Herbert, on 11 July 1889 OR 11 July 1890, it would be one way of trying to find him.
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See Tomster reply 44 - he gives the birth dates on that reply ;)
Doris was born January 1 1892 in Leeds,
URL of this page: http://search.findmypast.com/record?id=bmd%2fb%2f1892%2f3%2faz%2f00
0045%2f354&_ga=1.152197562.221939020.1417558438
And Herbert was born 9 Jul 1890 in Leeds
URL of this page: http://search.findmypast.com/record?id=bmd%2fb%2f1890%2f1%2faz%2f00
0046%2f133
Would be interesting to find if there was any newspaper reports on the assaults between John Manley and Lavina - the police were supposedly called on at least one occasion.
Sandra
-
July 8th, 1890 birth date. (written in margin)
Baptism February 8th 1891, Herbert Mauley, 4 Lamston Street, Insurance Manager, John and Jessie.
West Yorkshire Births and Baptisms
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July 8th, 1890 birth date. (written in margin)
Baptism February 8th 1891, Herbert Mauley, 4 Lamston Street, Insurance Manager, John and Jessie.
West Yorkshire Births and Baptisms
Wonderful :) That should lead to a birth reg.
.......added.....except I can't find it :P
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No, so either they did not register, or they used another surname.
Which was why I wanted the correct birth date, so apply for certificate with that - if possible?
-
Searched Birth Regs:
Herbert M* / R* / B*
1890 3rd qu Leeds Yorkshire
1890 4rth qu Leeds Yorkshire
NONE that look right
Herbert M* / R* / B*
1891 1st qu Leeds Yorkshire
Joseph Herbert Richardson 9B 555
1891 2nd qu Leeds Yorkshire
NONE that look right
1891 3rd qu Leeds Yorkshire
Herbert Richardson 9B 491
Herbert Richardson 9B 540
1891 4th qu Leeds Yorkshire
NONE that look right
Herbert M* / R* / B*
1892 - all 4 quarters
NONE that look right
I would go for those two that are registered in 1891 3rd quarter Leeds.
(But I have ordered wrong certs. in the past so I'm not a great judge)
-
From West Yorkshire baptisms:
These are baptism dates
Herbert Richardson on 27th September 1891 at St Matthew Leeds Alfred Harry and Alice
Herbert Richardson on 23rd September 1891 at St Michael, Buslingthorpe Mary Richardson mother
Herbert Richardson on 16th September 1891 at St Bartholomew Bowling to William Henry and Ann
Would not show on 1891 census if they were birth dates.
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Well - that probably takes care of those 3rd qu 1891 registrations - puts me back at being stumped :)
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Wow, Sandra, those court filing records are awful. Even if only half of it is true, John was a pretty despicable character. I hope I am not related although it appears as if I might be? If John abused the kids, it could go part way into explaining why my grandfather didn't talk about him much although he told my dad that he had a bad temper. Also according to Timothy, his mother, Jessie, had 2 sisters.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Its unusual to find such detailed divorce documents for that time frame - many people didn't divorce because it was so expense. There was a document dated 22 April 1885 where John Manley was ordered to pay Lavina one pound per week ( £1 ) from 5th March 1885 - payable monthly and so long only as she shall not molest the respondent with liberty to either party to apply credit to be given for all sums of money paid by the respondent on account of alimony.
Another documented 1 st July 1885 where John Manley was ordered to pay P B Matthews Esq, of 50 Lincoln Inn Fields the sum of £30 13s 1d being the amount of the petitioners costs. And a further order that the respondent do, within 14 days from the service here of lodge in court the sum of £45 estimated by one of the registrars as sufficient to cover the costs and expenses of the petitioner or, and incidental to the hearing of the Cause, or give a bond under the Hand and Seal of the said respondent and of two sufficient sureties in the penal sum of £90 conditioned for the payment of such expenses of the said petitioner as shall be certified to be due and payable by the said respondent not exceeding the said sum of £45 with 24 hours notice of such securities to the solicitor of the petitioner.
Sandra
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On the 3 rd November 1885 when the Judge had heard the oral evidence of the petitioner and the witnesses produced on her behalf in support of the petition filed in this clause and having heard Counsel thereon on behalf of the petitioner and respondent by his final decree pronounced and decreed a judicial separation between lavina Sophia Gilliam Manley the said petitioner and John Manley the said respondent by reason of cruelty to the said petitioner committed by the said respondent and condemned the said respondent in the costs incurred and to be incurred on behalf of the said petitioner n this cause. And on application of Counsel for the petitioner it is ordered that Edith Manley, John Manley, Henry Manley, Maude Manley Emily Manley, Arthur Manley and Helen Manley, the children and issue of the marriage between the petitioner and the respondent, do remain in the custody of the petitioner until further order of the Court, but it is directed that such children should not be removed out of the jurisdiction of the Court without sanction.
Filed by Matthews - 13 November 1885
Sandra
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24 th November 1885 - Manley against Manley
I do order that John Manley the respondent do within seven days of this order pay to P B Matthews of 50 Lincolns Inn Fields, the solicitors of the petitioner the sum of £50 2 s 7d being the amount of the petitioners costs, as taxed and certified by one of the registrars of this division.
10 December 1885 Matthews filed affidavit - issues writ of sequestration.
Sandra
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...... Also according to Timothy, his mother, Jessie, had 2 sisters.
Was there an obituary or death notice for Jessie in 1917? They didn't usually say much in those days but I wondered if there could be a clue from that.
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This is something I have meant to follow up, but never go around to it. It would likely be posted in the Vancouver Sun under the name of Jessie Fisher.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Found the Vancouver Sun Issues May 1, 1920 - Feb 28, 1987 - which doesn't help. Might have to be an e-mail to Vancouver Public Library. Runkitty and LindaGW are usually the experts on the obituary front but not sure they are finding anything for Jeanette Fisher.
http://www.vpl.ca/
Regards
Sandra
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This is something I have meant to follow up, but never go around to it. It would likely be posted in the Vancouver Sun under the name of Jessie Fisher.
Tom
I'm close to the main branch of the VanPL. If you want I'll go and look it up. Let me know if someone else is already going to do it. I wondered about it before but thought you might already have it.
sami
*****added.....The Vancouver Daily Sun was also published from 1917 to 1920. There may well be a local paper on microfilm that covers 1917. Its worth a look.
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If he was registered in September quarter 1890 in Leeds, he somehow has one of these surnames:
Binns, Blackburn, Brearley, Emmott, Goodman, Harrison, Ingram, Jessop, Lightowler, Mackrell, Moon, Rose,
Staniland, Walker, Wildsmith.
I can see West Yorkshire baptisms for Blackburn, Emmott, Ingram, Lightowler, Wildsmith, Walker.
Deaths for Binns, Staniland, Moon
Census in Leeds for Brearley, Goodman, Harrison, Jessop, Mackrell, Rose,
So all those accounted for.
He was baptised some time after his birth, so although birthplace claimed Leeds probably somewhere else?
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I'm close to the main branch of the VanPL. If you want I'll go and look it up. Let me know if someone else is already going to do it. I wondered about it before but thought you might already have it.
sami
*****added.....The Vancouver Daily Sun was also published from 1917 to 1920. There may well be a local paper on microfilm that covers 1917. Its worth a look.
[/quote]
Hi Sami,
If you do go to the VPL could I possible ask you a very big favour - please could you possible look for an obituary for the other Jeanette Fisher (nee Molenkemp) who passed away 6 July 1933. Helping another researcher with her and there is a slight variation in the fathers names and a 7 year age difference that concern her. Pretty certain it is the one she is looking for but an obituary might help clarify for her.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11030-130509-85?cc=1538285
Regards
Sandra ;)
PS Sorry to confuse you but my other username is playing up (this was my daughters - loaned it ;) ) - gremlins about ::)
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Ahhhh Sami :) that's so very nice of you to offer.
Cheers,
DB
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Taking another look at May McPherson - the aunt that was with Doris Wade and Frederick on the 1921. Can't really find much on her but both the 1921 and 1901 census indicate she was born in Ontario - maybe she is related to Fred rather than Doris - shame - that would be another dead-end ::)
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Sami
Sorry I didn't answer earlier. I have been out all morning. Since I live in Nanaimo, its hard to get to the Vancouver Library. If you don't mind going, I would greatly appreciate that.
Tom
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OK - I'll go to the library later this week. As it stands now I'll be looking up:
Jessie (possibly Jeanette) Fisher - died 02 Jan 1917 - Vancouver, BC
Jeanette Fisher (Molenkemp) died 06 Jul 1933 - Victoria, BC
Now's your chance - if there are other obits you want me to look up (within reason ;) ) just send me a PM.
sami
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Chempat's post with all the names got me thinking.
When Tom first posted we thought John's name was Bennett - but it turned out to be Manley and it seems like he never married Jessie/Jeanette.
So when Jeanette Bennett married George Fisher in 1904 in Ontario she said she was a spinster in spite of the fact that she already had 3 children and it would have been just as easy to say she was a widow. So when she says that her parents were Frederick Bennett and Jeanette Richards, perhaps that's also the truth, or the truth as she understood it.
So possibly the births of Herbert and Doris were registered under the surname Bennett after all but not necessarily in the districts they were born.
Has anyone found a baptism for Doris?
sami
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Sami
Given what we have seen so far, I think anything is possible. Again, thanks for the great work on the sleuthing. Looking forward to what comes next.
Tom
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Frederick Augustus Manley, who was a younger brother of John Manley, dies in 1918. He is a widower who has had a 'housekeeper' since 1901. Probate granted to her. More than £15,000. Might be interesting to see if any mention of any other family.
His Mother, Ellen, died in 1883, also a will.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/
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Sami
I have been thinking more about your last post. Maybe Jessie's maiden name is Bennett and maybe she and John Manley took that as their family name and moved to Leeds to escape any revenge from Lavina's family if he hadn't come up with the money he was ordered by the court to pay. If that is the case maybe John and Jessie met in Middlesex. Maybe there is a record of Jessie's family from that area?
Tom
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Tom,
John Manley was living with his first wife, Lavinia in Leeds in 1881, with children, so he was not hiding up there. He had a job there.
I think we have been looking for Jessie/Jeanette Bennetts in Sydenham etc
Any progress with recollections of names of Jessie's sisters?
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I have never heard them mentioned. Maybe they will show up on Jessie's Obit.
-
I have never heard them mentioned. Maybe they will show up on Jessie's Obit.
....if there was one - there wasn't one for George Fisher (23 Dec 18 1933).
I'm wondering how Sandra has done with May McPherson?
I've done a bit of looking but have found it quite confusing. However, a Mamie McPherson was a witness at Doris's marriage to Frederick Wade in 1912. Frederick's mother maiden name is typed Cosline but I'm wondering if it should be Gosline. There was a 1905 Vancouver marriage between a Mary Gosline (born 1870 New Brunswick) and John P. McPherson and also an 1896 Ontario marriage between a Mary Ann McKinnon (born 1871 Ontario) and John McPherson.
The Mary from the 1905 marriage died in Vancouver in 1940 - but there was no obituary.
The Mary Ann from the 1896 marriage died in Vancouver in 1948 - I'll look for her obituary.
So as it stands now I'll go to the library tomorrow and look for:
Jeanette (or Jessie) Fisher - 02 Jan 1917 Vancouver
Sandra's - Jeanette Fisher - 06 Jul 1933 Victoria
Mary Ann McPherson - 15 Jul 1948 Vancouver.
If anyone can think of any other obits that might give us a bit more information let me know.
sami
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Hi Sami,
Mary McPherson (Aunt) to Frederick Wade - was Mary Ann Gosselin, she was the sister to Fredericks mother Emily Kathleen Gosselin (who had married George Augustas Wade) Mary and Emily Gosselin were the children of Clement Gosselin and Alice Walsh.
Mary Ann McPherson was the one that passed away 8 th February 1940.
I didn't see any further clues from that line of research unfortunately.
Regards
Sandra
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Hi Tom:
Had a look at Jessie's death notice today. The notice appeared for 2 days running in both The Vancouver Sun and The Daily Province but unfortunately didn't contain any useful information:
"The death occurred Jan 2nd of Jeanette Fisher late of 611 7th Avenue. The remains are resting at Grate & Co's private chapel, 262 Kingsway from where the funeral will take place Thursday afternoon at 2 o'clock. The Rev. Rennie officiating. Internment Mountain View Cemetery."
Sandra - I'll send you a PM with your information.
sami
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Thanks Sami. Too bad the outcome wasn't better.
Tom
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It was really generous/kind of Sami to go to the library and look for the obituary for Jessie, a shame it didn't give us her sisters names, perhaps they had already passed or they never kept in touch. ???
Got hooked ::) on a Frederick Samuel Bennett who married a Jessie Greig 15 November 1871 St Sepulchre, Holborn. The date was almost the same (a year out) as that birth date for Jessie. Not unknown for parents to have a birth and marriage on the same day. Frederick was a minor and a traveller. Could only find 1 child listed for them in 1872 Frederick John Bennett. Couldn't find any other birth for a Jessie Grieg or Bennett though to fit the couple. ::)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLG7-9D6
Sandra
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I really have no idea what Jessie's sister's names were, but a place to start maybe the names she gave to her children : Doris, Gladys, Esther. Also, my grandfather indicated that Jessie was the oldest among the girls in her family.
Tom
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You would have thought putting the parents names Frederick Bennett and Jeanette Richards into family search would have thrown up possibilities but that avenue produced nothing for me, even with surname variation.
Sandra
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Jimmy and Gladys are from Jessie and George. Emily is a puzzle though. She turned up on the 1911 Can Census. I had never heard of her and I don't know where she went.
-
James Fisher died 19 November 1940 Vancouver British Columbia - wife Constance
Father George Fisher and Mother Janet Bennett.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLKP-XQD
The 1911 Canadian census was the one that showed the wrong years of birth - James aged 4 was born 1905 and not 1897 - Gladys 3 years born 1907 and not 1898 so chances are the date for Emily aged 6 years was also wrong.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV9P-1QD1
You seemed to have followed an Emily Monica Fisher/Colbourne on your tree - ???
Sandra
-
I am not sure that I made the right connections for Emily.
-
Jimmy and Gladys are from Jessie and George. Emily is a puzzle though. She turned up on the 1911 Can Census. I had never heard of her and I don't know where she went.
I had been thinking that James and Gladys were from a previous marriage of George. When Gladys marries in 1923 - she puts 'Don't Know' for the mother's name. Plus her age at 21 puts her birth at 1902.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01f69/
Do you have her Birth Cert.? Would it list Jessie's name?
sami
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Hi,
Sami :) - I think Tom has them.
Ontario Canada Births, James Fisher b. August 23, 1905 father George Fisher, mother
Jeanette Bennett
Ontario Canada Births, Gladys Esther Fisher b. December 29, 1907 father Joseph ???
Fisher, mother Janett Bennett
Perhaps Gladys "adjusted" her age, as hubby was 22 at the time of their marriage.
George and Jeanette were married in June 1904. Since Emily was older, perhaps her
birth is registered as Bennett....or ??? ....not seeing it at the moment.
Cheers,
DB
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I have Jimmy's and Glady's Birth Cert. You will note that Gladys was only 10 when her mom died in 1917. I don't know where she went after that but she was only 16, living and working as a waitress on her own when she married Hodgson in 1923. She obviously lied about her age (gets it from her mom I guess).
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Sami :) - I think Tom has them.
Right you are :) Between not reading the posts properly and the dates on the 1911 Census I got thoroughly mixed up ;D
sami
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Not mixed up Sami :) I thought it was a good question.
Cheers,
DB
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Hi Tom,
Have you seen this?
Canada War Graves Registers (Circumstances of Casualty) 1914-1918
Fisher, George, Private, Service #75236 (which matches his Attest. papers)
Unit: 29th Battalion, Date of Casualty Dec. 23, 1933, Mountain View Cemetery, Plot 2,
block 38, Jones addition.
"Death was due to a condition incurred on service for which an award of pension is
preculuded under the terms of the Pension Act, Authority CPC.d. 9-7-34"
Next of kin: Mrs. B. Wolfe (daughter)
Hotel Geary,
San Francisco, Cal. USA
Emily ???
Cheers,
DB
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Hi DB
I haven't seen the information reported in the way you have it (where did you get this from?). But I got info from the staff at Mountain view Cemetery, stood next to his grave where Jessie Fisher/Bennett is also buried. I am very puzzled as to who Mrs. B. Wolfe is. Could be Emily or Gladys?? Gladys was married a number of times: first Hodgson in 1923 in Vancouver and Meriwether in San Francisco after 1940, so Wolfe could be a possibility?
Tom
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Larkin Street San Francisco, California 1940
E Bradford Noah 29
Velma L Noah 29
Gladys Wolfe 32 Born Canada 1908.Naturalized. Lived in the same place in 1935. Divorced. Listed as Partner/Employee. Waitress. Lunch Room.
Sandra
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California Death Index - Gladys Esther Simpson - Gladys Esther Fisher - 29 December 1907 passed away 11 July 1983 - San Mateo- Father Fisher and Mother Richards.
Last residence :- 94062 Redwood City, San Mateo, California.
Sandra
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Hi Tom,
It was on A*******. It should be with Library and Archives Canada but for some reason
it isn't. My granddad's is there and he died in the late 50's.
Sandra....nice find. :)
Cheers,
DB
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I met Gladys and her husband Wayne Simpson a couple of times but I was too young to be included in "adult" conversation to so as to find out how many times and to whom she was married. So I didn't know she had married "Wolfe". This must be after she divorced Hodgson. I have a picture of her with her husband "Bob" (don't know last name) taken in 1940. Apparently, he was a heavy weight boxer.
Tom
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Sandra
Where did you find the info on Gladys Wolfe?
Thanks,
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Gladys in 1940
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K982-R32
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-27792-3610-17?cc=2000219
Sandra
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Many thanks Sandra.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Since San Mateo is in the Bay Area, it might be worth an email to the San Francisco Library
for an obit lookup. It is a free service.
http://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=2000049301
Cheers,
DB
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Contacted the Toronto Library but a dead end as they indicated that everything had been sent to A....com, so no progress on that front.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Since San Mateo is in the Bay Area, it might be worth an email to the San Francisco Library
for an obit lookup. It is a free service.
http://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=2000049301
Cheers,
DB
The link DB gave you is normally exceptional with obituaries - have you tried them yet ?
Sandra
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Hi Tom,
Whilst researching my family tree i came accross your posts on Rootschat.
I am fairly certain your "John Bennett" is my great grandfather "John Manley" son of John Manley the surgeon who was trained in Paris. Brother of Frederick Augustus. My grandfather was also called "John Manley" he was Lavinia and Johns second child.
Your correspondents on rootschat did a sterling job.
John Manley who you know as John Bennett died on 15th August 1908 at 6 The Terrace Camden Square,London. His brother Frederick was with him. He died of Aortic Regurgitation Syncope certified by A Brown MD.
I was struggling to fill in the gap years between 1887 when John left Lavinia and his death in 1908.
The judicial seperation occurred in 1885. That left John penniless. He and Lavinia rekindled their relationship and they got back together shortly after the case. By 1887 Johns health had failed him and he was very ill ; he lost his job. They were destitute with six children in a two bed flat a mattress one table and two chairs. They had lost their servants and sold all their clothes and had only blankets to wrap themselves in. Theres more lots more. Bottom line is John leaves Lavinia and moves to Sevenoaks in Kent where he was arrested for desertion.This was late 1887 i believe. After this he disappears until he turns up in Leeds with Jessie. Herbert was bornJuly 1889 and sister Doris Jan 1992 in Leeds.
I am working on Lavinias history now . She lied about her age. She was a lot older than John. Some indications are that she was born in 1846 to Joseph Clare. That would make her 23 when she married John. The birth certificate that i obtained gives her birth as July 18th 1838 and her father a William Clare. Am investigating this.
I hope this helps you as your chat has helped me.
Kind Regards
PM.
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PM can we chat off line. My email is Please see next post.
Thanks Tom
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New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility. If weebris replies to you on here a couple more times, you can use the personal message system to communicate privately.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
It is against the rules of the site to post personal e-mail addresses, spam etc., so you will have to delete it Tom or a moderator will do it for you.
Sandra
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Thanks Sandra. Clearly I have some things to learn.
Tom
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Sandra
How do I remove the email address you pointed out to me?
Thanks,
Tom
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Peter
Do you know if John and Jessie were actually married? Also, do you know Jessie's last name - apparently she had two sisters. Further, do you have any idea why the chose Bennett as a last name?
Thanks, Tom
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Hi Tom,
There is a modify button, top right beside quote....but only for 24 hours, then you lose the
ability to modify. I have asked a moderator to remove your email address.
Cheers,
DB
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Thanks DB
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Fascinating story
Just adding the link to your search for Jessie/Jeanette
good luck
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794869.0
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Thanks, I think I will need all the luck I can get.
Tom
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Thanks Sandra for all your effort. Lots to follow up on.
Tom