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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: woodley on Sunday 12 April 15 13:13 BST (UK)
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hi everybody, i am looking into researching an irish family line, i have used find my past, family search ect, but seems as though i am getting NO-WHERE, so i thought turn to the experts here see what happens,... my william james baverstock 1889 married a eileen(victoria)leslie 1895,they married bangalore india, eileen is the daughter of alice leslie 1865 born dublin(south), in 1901/1911 they are all living at prospect avenue, dublin, alice died 1927 in glasnevin, i have the 1901/1911 census, eileen birth cert, ernest john birth 1890 cert(her brother), on her brothers birth cert it states father ernest john lesware as father, mother alice leslie bap all saints dublin, now my problems start i CANNOT FIND ANYTHING on the mother alice leslie OR THE father ernest john lesware (found he was married to emily margret fisher), no census or other family records, i have been tolled i am wasting my time trying to trace irish family lines !!!, so i turned here.
thankyou for your help and time ???
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Lesware crossed off here
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-511-2-1-017
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thankyou, yes i have this record , but why has it been crossed, unless the father at the time asked for it to be crossed because he had reason to not want his surname listed, its too much of a coincidence that ernest john lesware is living near alice and she ends up having a child where the surname lesware has been crossed out, plus he is married to another woman
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Ernest is an Engineer on the Baptism and you know he is married to Emily so is this him in 1911
married 26 years with no children an Engine Fitter.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Pembroke_West/Grand_Canal_Street__Upper/10878/
and 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Merchants_Quay/Salem_Terrace/1300698/
his marriage to Emily
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/89076f0555970
so his father is James mother not recorded.
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The father is listed as a Watchmaker on the marriage so this looks like a brother of Ernest
James Isabella Lesware 4 London Bridge Road.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/6f79100010151
as the father is listed as a Clockmaker.
Mother's name Jane, sadly her maiden name not listed.
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Wonder if there is any relationship here
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/c8f7bb0084142
Letitia baptised as an adult Feb 1873
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a122d20257893
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Glasnevin/Botanic_Avenue/1273826/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Glasnevin/Botanic_Avenue/16691/
possible sibling
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/ec4c950007453
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Alice as you said in Prospect Ave in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Glasnevin/Prospect_Avenue/1273147/
She says she was born in County Dublin so outside the City limits........that makes it harder but than in 1911 she says Dublin City.
She also claims to be married 23 years, are we assuming she was never married and Leslie is her birth name!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Glasnevin/Prospect_Avenue/8313/
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Sinann mistranscription Jane Lesware
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-245-1-3-022
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGHH-4FH
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Sinann mistranscription Jane Lesware
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-245-1-3-022
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGHH-4FH
Ah yes a sister so.
And the mother's name, excellent
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Could this be Ernest in a bit of bother
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KM38-GYQ
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looks like he had a few older buddies to guide him
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KM38-GT3
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KM38-GBY
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KM38-GB9
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James Lesware and Jane Magill ?
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Kingstown/Charlemont_Avenue/1318575/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Kingstown_No__3/George_s_Street__Lower/91458/
1878 Advertisement Mechanical Engineering and Turret Clock Factory,4 Fleet St .
James Lesware late foreman of J Booth ans son.
Edit from the Irish Builder(provided a link but not showing ?)
Isabella Lesware married Reuben Trowbridge 24 Feb 1904
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FY8S-BZD
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Kingstown_No__4/Islington_Avenue/98252/
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/61098608/
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you would probably need to see the actual church entry in the register to see if the wife Jane is mistranscribed as Maginn
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGZ7-BGP
some births mother Connor ,Magill,Maginon
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bfather_givenname%3Ajames~%20%2Bfather_surname%3Alesware~%20%2Bmother_givenname%3Ajane~&collection_id=1584963
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thankyou all for this, i am personally assuming that alice never married i am sure this couple had a fling, and produced 2 illigitamate children, it is the only conclusion i can come up with
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Actually think the mothers name is Jane Maginn and is most likely mistranscribed on her daughters birth in 1872 as Magill.
If you scroll down through this lot you will see what i mean.
http://www.myheritage.com/research?action=query&formId=1&formMode=0&qname=Name+fnmo.2+fnmsvos.1+fnmsmi.1+ln.Lesware+lnmo.3+lnmsdm.1+lnmsmf3.1+lnmsrs.1&p=1
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Woodley
you are probably correct
There is a death record in Rathdown in 1930 of an Ernest LESWARE
Civil Reference Q2 V2 P501
This could prove of interest if the correct Ernest
I think Emily LESWARE died in 1913
Also interestingly there is a child on the 1911 census named Cecil LESWARE (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?searchMoreVisible=&census_year=1911&surname=lesware&firstname=cecil&county19011911=&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&parish=&ward=&barony=&townland=&houseNumber=&ded=&age=&sex=&search=Search&ageInMonths=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&yearsMarried=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=&deafdumb=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumber=&protNumber=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=)
He is living in a "Home for Crippled Children" at 9.3 in New Dargle Road (Bray No.1, Wicklow)
Aged 7 the corresponding birth for him seems to be an Ernest Cecil LESWARE in Dublin South
Civil Reference Q3 V2 P586
What is interesting is the 1911 census does not show a child missing from a family from what I can see; and the name is intriguing
Just for interest!
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again thankyou for the intrest in this topic, it seems that alice lived 700 yards from ernest john lesware , but in the vincinity is the local church st.marys , this is where ernest john lesware married emily m fisher in 1885, yet when alice has two children she travels to all saints church about 3 miles away to baptise her children, on the sons bap record it states father ernest john lesware ,the lesware surname is clearly written along with her surname leslie , but then there is a line going through the lesware surname but it still is clear, eventually alice travells to glasnevin where she settles down with her 2 children, this is why i am sure/certain that alice had a fling or a full blown affair with this ernest j lesware which produced 2 illigitamate children , the daughter eventually marries into my baverstock line
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It's surprising Alice didn't claim to be a widow in the Censes'
What was Eileen's father listed as on the marriage?
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now thats the thing, on her marriage it says father ernest john leslie , widow, now it seems this was probably her older brother acting/standing in , he was married prior to her wedding
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She married in India didn't she, would her brother have been there?
Ernest John Leslie is the name on her baptism an engineer so I guess Alice had the sense not to give the Lesware name that time.
Widow..... I don't get that, who is listed as a widow?
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on her brothers baptism it states father ernest john LESWARE , the daughters baptism it states leslie,when eileen gets married it says father ernest john leslie WIDOWED, but according to what has been discovered it looks like their mother ALICE was having a fling with a married man when they were conceived, the children are illigitamate and the father on eileen"s wedding cert is probably her brother standing in
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Ah Widowed.
Odd thing to write on a marriage cert, I've never come across that before.
So Alice is dead by the time Eileen gets married.
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I'm presuming that this Joseph & Margaret fit in somewhere !
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014899/005014899_00230.pdf
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014911/005014911_00144.pdf
Tara
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http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014884/005014884_00349.pdf
An older will with a mention of Liverpool, might give leads as to how the surname got to Dublin !
Tara
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Joseph Lessware Clockmaker
http://www.libraryireland.com/Dublin-Street-Directory-1862/129.php
Tara
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Just if you are interested you can track Alice on this site for a few years !
http://www.dublinheritage.ie/burgesses/search_new.php
1908 41 Prospect Avenue
1909 41 Prospect Avenue
1910 3 Prospect Avenue
1911 3 Prospect Avenue
1912 3 & 5 Prospect Avenue
All the Leswares are on it too !
Tara
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I note under both Census that Alice has no occupation against her.
Could we presume that Ernest was supporting her ?
Also, this is just a theory, but aren't Leslie and Lesware very similar ?!
I'm just wondering MIGHT Alice have 'adopted' a surname similar to Ernest.
A wild shot I know but the Les(s)wares seem fairly easy for you to work out on your tree ~
I can't see any good leads or possibilites to trace Alice backwards.
Tara
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http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/111069-ernest-j-leslie-1863
Tara
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The other poster says that Alice is buried in Glasnevin.
Have you guys purchased the record from them to check who else is in the grave ?
Tara
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http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/IRL-DUBLIN-CITY/2014-05/1400192844
Tara
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I think Alice died in Glasnevin but she's not buried there,well she's not on the index 1927
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I didn't see her there either Dathai.
BTW Do you know what the rules were for that cemetery ?
I've a few non catholics on my tree who aren't there yet I thought it was a mixed graveyard ???
Tara
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any religion allowed in Glasnevin
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That's what I thought, Thanks.
Tara
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many many thanks for all this, someone tolled me at the start of this search that i would find it hard if not difficult to trace irish ancestors , i am glad i ignored that advice and put it out to you wonderfull lot on here xxxxxx
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wonderfull , brilliant, i have just been looking at the suggested dublin heritage site, what a gem, thankyou, just need to figure out how i can print or save each record
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Hi There Woodley
I would just ask you to be super careful while doing your tree.
I'm not sure if you are the same person who was posting on other forums but if not then there are others doing your family tree whom have gone WAY off tangent it appears.
One message says that a person whom was doing the tree was given access to someone else doing the same tree who has down that Alice was married to a John Leslie whom was from Scotland and has followed this train of thought WAY back into Scotland.
As you can see here now by the great work that Dathai, Sinann and MyLuck did for you that this is not the case at all.
It's a prime example of being super careful at not just copying someones elses tree.
It's such a shame that Alice (for now) can't be tracked back further.
Given her relationship with Ernest and all the subterfuge that I'd imagine that were part of her life it would be very possible that any details on her would need to be taken with a pinch of salt.
For now the only real paperwork we can use for her is the census.
Census can be greatly erratic at the best of times.
Given her situation, she may not have been from Dublin, she could have been Catholic, her age could be incorrect.
It's certainly a intriguing story.
One illegitimate child happens, two seems more planned doesn't it ???
As I said before, it also seems possible that Ernest was supporting her.
Have you ever tried to track down a will for Ernest ?
It might be worth it to see if anything could be gleaned from it.
Did you ever get a death cert for Alice ?
May be leads there, possibly not though.
Re Dublin Heritage
There is a 1939 version too ;D
Oh and aren't the Leswares interesting ?
Turret Clockmakers sounds fascinating.
Tara
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Prospect Avenue appears to have changed a lot over the years but this might give you a rough idea !
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.367187,-6.271382,3a,75y,90h,92.54t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sRiWCgUhZC2-tVAYHCvWCBw!2e0!6m1!1e1
Tara
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Re Dublin Heritage
Screen Shots are the only way that I ever found to get a 'copy' of the images !
Tara
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This family of Leslies are interesting in so much as they are in the same area as Alice, but a lot earlier.
Might be worth filing them under possibilities for now :
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/162de20007431
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/ec4c950007453
Tara
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It looks like James Lesware married Jane Maginn and she was a widow who was married prior to a Mr Connor.
Richard Maginn then was Jane's father's name.
Another rare surname for you to deal with ;D
Tara
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Sorry,
I just noticed that Dathai reckons the surname is Magill (McGill might be another variation).
Tara
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Tara see post 14 this topic.
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HA I know Dathai
I TOTALLY missed a whole page of replies DUH ! ;D ;D ;D
Tara
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again i cant thankyou all enough for the help and intrest in this topic, its more than i expected, as for the post about "others following the same name" yes thankyou i know of them and disregarded them a while back, "the scottish connection one" is 100% wrong , he contacted me to say it was his alice who married into my baverstock"s, when he invited me to his tree i spotted that his leslie"s were all born in south africa/scotland, i knew for fact that my alice and daughter eileen and ernest were definitly born dublin area, ireland , suffice to say i have not been back to him(bless him), i dont have the heart to tell him he is wrong, ... now onwards and upwards putting all the info you all have provided into a family line and hopefully i get it right and especially in the right order (unless one of you has spare time to do it for me)..................gratefully xxxxxx
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Woodley
I had a thought about Alice and her family
It may put a spanner in the works but can I ask;
other than on Ernest's baptism record have you found a reference to LESWARE?
The reason I ask is that in researching I have come across a few anomalies that were due to incorrect completion of forms.
Found a connection myself
Ernest's birth was registered in the Civil Records as
Ernest LESWARE 1890 Dublin North Q3 V2 P485
I have tried but cannot locate a civil record for Eileen
I suggest you order the official certificate (€4) to see what it says!
Two examples
1 where a groom's name on the church records was shown as his brother's name (1950s)
In this case it was surmised that the priest officiating was better known to the brother and wrote the name in error
2 where a birth certificate showed a neighbour's name (1930s)
In this case it was decided that the person completing the record was distracted and wrote the neighbours names as he was thinking about her instead of the correct mother
Looking at the records the strikethrough is referenced as HH
I take this to be Henry Hogan who recorded the baptism and is named on many of the other records
Could he have in error written the name of a person of whom he was familiar and went back to correct it later?
If you have not found a reference to LESWARE any where else this may be the simple answer to Eileen's parentage
Also if you obtain Alice's death cert there may be further clues or if you could locate Alice's burial place.
Just a warped off thought!
Also Ernest John LESLIE joined the Royal Irish Rifles in 1915 Reg# 8468 or 9468
He gave his mother Alice LESLIE as his next of kin address 47 Upr Dorset Street Dublin
The army record shows he married Elizabeth FANNING in St. Agatha's on Oct 18 1915
He was medically discharged in 1916
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again i cant help but keep saying thankyou to everybody here, yes i think in my mind that i had decided that ERNEST JOHN born 1890 is the son of ERNEST JOHN LESWARE, there can be no other provable decision, there are no records to prove otherwise for a start, so if we are all in agreement i think i will settle for a split family line ERNEST JOHN LESWARE on the left and ALICE LESLIE on the right(bless her).... still not had any offers for someone to put all the leslie family in order !!!! XXXX
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Hi MyLuck / Woodley
If I was to hazard a guess, given that Ernest & Alice's first child together was Ernest Junior then they may have made the decision to give him the correct surname (hence the birth cert under surname of Lesware).
NB Did you guys notice that there was 6 weeks between Ernest Junior being born and his baptism ?
So it defo looks to me like the birth cert was gotten first, a delay ensued (probably deciding what to do next) and then they decided to go ahead with a baptism.
I would well imagine that they also made the decision to give the boy the surname Lesware while baptising him.
It's very possible the Henry was a diligent priest and wrote up the register as he was told by Edward & Alice ~ he may have asked more questions afterwards, or even just though general conversation Ernest & Alice may have slipped up and gave away the fact that they weren't married.
It's even possible that either Ernest or Alice may have gone back at a later stage and asked for it to be amended to Leslie.
They most likely made a decision after Ernest's baptism, and the embarrassment I'm sure that happened with the surname being changed that the surname Leslie was the only one to be used going forward.
I have no doubts whatsoever that Ernest John Lesware was the father of both these children, HA brave words as I may be proved wrong ;D.
Tara
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i dont think your wrong, i am 90% certain that this is the correct conclusion, that ernest (junior) and eileen leslie are the illigitamate children of ERNEST JOHN LESWARE, if i am wrong then i will look a right pratt because i have tolled everyone(family) that LESWARE/LESLIE is our family tree lines from ireland.. :-*
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Woodley
do you have Ernest Junior's actual birth certificate?
if not this could be very valuable for information
Ernest LESWARE 1890 Dublin North Q3 V2 P 485
I cannot see a civil reference for Eileen
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not got actual birth cert yet, a family freind related by another line in ireland is supposed to be going for it this coming week, also while there he will enquire about eileen"s birth, this person also is very very sure that LESWARE/LESLIE is the correct way to go ,
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TO EVERYONE who helped, thankyou, it now seems that ernest john lesware was looking after his wife emily and her sister alice(fisher), emily could not give him children but alice did, on one birth it says alice lesware formly leslie, mother, witnessed by sarah fisher, on another it says alice fisher, witnessed by sarah fisher, at the time both births were at sarah fisher"s house, sarah appears to be an auntie due to her being older , alice eventually moves away to glasnevin were she died a pauper in the workhouse. thankyou all
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You're welcome - thank you for the update
ALICE FISHER (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/23e18b0143585)