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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Gloucestershire => Topic started by: Deux Chevaux on Tuesday 14 April 15 23:24 BST (UK)
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Hello, I'm looking for information regarding Sidney Williams who was born in 1848, in Newent. He moved to Hay-on-Wye sometime in the 1860s. He appears to be non-conformist in his religious beliefs, likely being a Baptist (his grandson, my grandfather, was married in Salem Chapel, the Baptist chapel for Hay). I've been to Gloucestershire records office and been unable to find any records relating to his birth or baptising. I'm guessing the church minister kept the records secure. Can anybody help? Thanks. :)
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Failure to register a birth only became a fineable offence in 1874/5 so many births went unregistered prior to then.
The only English 1851 entry is a 2mth old b Bristol - parents Richard & Elizabeth and between 1861-1881 there is no entry matching the profile you have given.
The Welsh 1851 for Monmouthshire has a 5yr old (1845/6) Sidney Williams b Gloucs nephew of William & Mary Ann Williams
Who were your Sidney's parents?
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Hi if he is the Sidney Williams 25 occ Hairdresser b Newent married to a Mary in 1871 Hay, Breconshire, then in 1861 he is Sydney Williams 16 occ Hairdresser Apprentice b Gloucester at St Owens Street, St Peters, Hereford
1871 RG10/5593/99/9 1861 RG09/1821/6/7
Keyboard86
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Do you have a copy of his marriage cert showing his fathers name?
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Thank you both for the information given. I've not seen a marriage certificate yet, it's something I'll be dealing with when I find the time. The St Owen Street, Hereford connection is a pretty strong contender and was unknown to me, so thanks for that snippet. I have a contact on Genes Reunited who has Sidney's father down as a John Williams, born c1820, but no further information. At my mother's funeral in Hay-on-Wye last Friday I came across the headstones of both Sidney and his wife, Mary (nee Davies), my great,great-grandmother, and their son, my great-grandfather, William Sidney Williams and his wife, Laura Jane (nee Stace), my great-grandmother. That's four generations in Hay cemetery now.
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Hi again, I would be very interested to see your findings of the father on the marriage certificate of Sidney/Sydney Williams to Mary Davies in 1870 Hay, Breconshire, as I believe you can take the 1851 census supplied by Carole as your Sidney shown as nephew to a William & Mary Ann ( nee Brown) Williams in Monmouthshire, they married on the same day as her daughter Eliza Brown married a Lot Newman, the 28th May 1839 Llandogo, Monmouthshire, in 1861 the St Owen Street, Herefordshire crops up again with William and Mary Ann Williams staying with Eliza Newman & family Census Ref RG09/1820/58/1
These are the families in 1841:-
Lot Newman 30 occ Millwright Not born in County
William Williams 30
Mary Ann 30 Not born in County
Henry Charles Williams 3 weeks
William Nelson Williams 20 occ Millwright
Temperance Williams 25 Female
Residing at White Brook, Llandogo, Monmouthshire
Census Ref HO107/747/ 10/19 / 6
An interesting possible marriage at the parish Church Trelleck( Trellech) Grange 2nd? February 1846
Nicholas Morgan Reece Full Age occ Farmer Father Edmund Reece occ Farmer
Temperance Williams Full Age Father James Williams occ Timber Merchant
Nicholas Morgan REES was baptised 3rd May 1812 Place Mitchell Troy, Monmouthshire Father Edmund Mother Jane
Trelleck Grange is approx 25 miles from Newent, and I note on the 1881 the first daughter born c 1872 for Sidney & Mary was a Temperance Jane ( Jane being the mother of Mary)
EDIT looking at the 1851 Wales census this was NOT the Temperance shown on the 1841 this one is born 1824/5?
A Temperance Williams marries a William Williams June qtr 1844 Newport 26 151
Keyboard86
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The one piece of information that has caught my eye is the name Temperance. I've no idea how common that name was in the 19th century, but my great-grandfather (William Sidney Williams b1874) had a sister named Temperance who was born in 1871. I know from a name on my mother's side of the family that certain names tended to come down the generations. It's for that reason, plus the St.Owen Street connection, that I'm tending to lean towards this as being the right family. Many Thanks.
EDIT: Just read through your info again, kb86, and noticed I'd missed you had mentioned my G-grandfather's sister, Temperance.
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Looking at the information on the 1861 census, Sidney Williams' age is stated as 16. That would put his year of birth as around 1844/1845, yet I have it down as 1848. ???
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:) Hi again, can now see why another tree has the father of Sidney/Sydney as a John:-
Marriage 24th July 1901 Parish Church Hay, Breconshire
Sidney Williams 53 Widower occ Hairdresser Father John Williams occ Labourer
Janet Whitney 49 Widow Father Thomas Price occ Labourer
Witnesses William Everest and Leah Lauson?
But it is only from the 1881 census that Sidney depicts a birth year of c 1848 Newent, to have two Sidney's whose occupation is a Hairdresser b Newent in Hay would be a massive coincidence!
This is the 1871 Census I showed ref for earlier:-
Sidney Williams 25 occ Hairdresser b Newent
Mary 22 b Radnorshire
William Williams 63 occ General Agent b Trelleck
Mary Ann Williams 68 b Wiveliscombe, Somerset
Residing at Bull Ring, Hay, Breconshire
I would be very sceptical of his father being indeed a John?
Mary looks to have died Sept qtr 1894 Hay 11b 85 aged 44
Keyboard86
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Very true.
Mary died on the 10th July 1894. Sidney and Mary are buried together, but there's no mention of Janet on the gravestone. Janet died in 1913. Maybe she's buried with her first husband. I'll have to change the birth year of Sidney to 1844 or 1845. Perhaps I should make a visit to Gloucestershire records office and look for his birth in those years.
Thanks again
Jon
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Hi again, if you do go ahead and visit Gloucester Records I would suggest a possible birth for Sidney/Sydney of 1845/6, still attempting to establish how Sidney is so closely attached to his uncle William Williams?
This is the Temperance Williams who married Nicholas Morgan Reece in Trelleck Grange in 1846, he uses Morgan on census returns as his first name, Temperance b Pontypool:-
James Williams 55 occ Wood Dealer
Mary 40
Peter 8
Edward 5
Abel 15
Temperance 15
Sarah 12
Elizabeth 10
Martha 1
Residing at Trelleck Grange, Monmouthshire
Census ref HO107/747/ 26/4 / 2
Rest of family 1851 HO107/2443/212/4
Keyboard86
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if the age on the 1861 census is correct, there is this possible birth reg
Male Williams june qtr 1844 Newent vol 11 pg 371
If he was born into a Baptist family, you are unlikely to find a useful baptism. Baptists practise Believer's baptism around the age of 15 or upwards. Not usual for names of parents to be included.
http://www.baptist.org.uk/Groups/220594/Believers_Baptism.aspx
The child may appear on the birth register of the Baptist Church the family attended but the records may not be at the record office.
::)
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Thank you, Osprey. Very interesting to learn about the Baptist practise of believer's baptism. I've come to suspect that the record office doesn't hold the records I seek. Same with the Quakers.
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Thank you, Osprey. Very interesting to learn about the Baptist practise of believer's baptism. I've come to suspect that the record office doesn't hold the records I seek. Same with the Quakers.
The "Male" Williams b 1844 Newent shown by Osprey is surely worth investing in?
In my opinion his mother was the Temperance who married Nicholas Morgan Reece, but the Father?
What records therefore do you seek?
But then again?
Keyboard86
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Thank you, Osprey. Very interesting to learn about the Baptist practise of believer's baptism. I've come to suspect that the record office doesn't hold the records I seek. Same with the Quakers.
The "Male" Williams b 1844 Newent shown by Osprey is surely worth investing in or investigating?
In my opinion his mother was the Temperance who married Nicholas Morgan Reece, but the Father?
What records therefore do you seek?
But then again?
Keyboard86