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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: iluleah on Thursday 16 April 15 21:51 BST (UK)
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Thomas Paterson b 1861 Dalserf Lanark Coal miner
Wife Catherine b 1862
Mary b 1884 Old Monkland Lanarkshire
John b 1888 Blantyre Glasgow
Richard b 1890 Old Monkland Lanarkshire
In 1891 they were in Old Monkland Lanarkshire
Can anyone help please
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Larger family by 1901:
Thomas Paterson 39 coal miner b. Dalserf, Lanarkshire
Catherine Paterson 38 b. Holytown, Lanarkshire
Mary W Paterson 17
John Paterson 14
Richard Paterson 10
Janet Paterson 8
George Paterson 6
Thomas Paterson 4
James Paterson 2
Robert Paterson 3 Months
Address: Castle Buildings, New Cumnock, Ayrshire
Monica :)
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Thank you Monica... yes it seems they had been busy ;D
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iluleah, what was mother/wife Catherine's maiden name? Was it McFarlane?
Some basic details on a tree on a/try here http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/67987134/person/38173659835 Not sure if you have access to this.
Monica
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Yes it was McFarlane, but I do not have access to ancestry.
I am particular interested in John and who he married
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That tree that I mentioned seems to belong to the family of daughter Janet born in 1892 who married a William McGeachy in 1916. No mention there on brother John...
Monica
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Thank you for looking for me.
This is a 30 yr brick wall I was able to smash yesterday after a member on rootchat mentioned the 20 credits offer by scotlandpeople. I have no ancestors from Scotland so have never used the site so thought it a good opportunity to look and see but then remembered I was looking for a marriage of my great aunt which I could never find.
I know John died in 1959, know where the service was , know where he is buried, know where they lived, knew they were not married in 1911 and then remembered a family story saying he was either Irish or Scottish as I have already looked in Ireland thought I would check in Scotland and to my surprise found their marriage in 1933 but it opened another query as they were both widow/widowers. She was married to a Mr Barker but can't find that marriage, but no idea who he was married to prior.
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What was the name and maiden name of second wife? Not that it necessarily helps with John's first marriage details... Who reported his death in 1959? Who were the witnesses to his second 1933 marriage?
Monica
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Nellie Clements who was born in Rutland.
The witnesses to the marriage ( as best as I can transcribe the script on the marriage cert) were withnesses Hugh Penman & Anna Marie Hortense Lersy or Stevenson ( she lived at the same address as Nellie) which is now Direct line Financial services in Glasgow
John was a structural engineer and Nellie a Photographer
Nellie reported his death. She died in 1972 buried with John in a tiny village in Nottinghamshire so I knew her very well and I spent lots of time with her when I was a child, although never knew anything about her life really, she always carried a camera with her ( which means something to me now knowing her profession) she could draw anything and everything and was somewhat eccentric which I loved and told some fascinating stories which at that time I was told meant nothing, but have since found many to be true.
I never knew she lived in Scotland, I do know during WW2 she took German POWs to the local farms to work
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What a great story for Nellie :) I work in a Photography business...what can I say?!
Let's see if we can find anything further between us all...
John Paterson died in England in 1959?
Monica
PS: Marriage here for reference:
1933 John PATERSON and Nellie CLEMENTS in BLYTHSWOOD, GLASGOW CITY/LANARK - ref 644/10 074
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She was a wonderful lady
John died at home aged 72yrs at 1 Summers Terrace, Morton, Swinderby Lincolnshire, is buried in our family village in Nottinghamshire on the 26 September 1959, black marble head stone and then in 1972 Aunt Ellen ( as I knew her) was also buried there.
Prior to yesterday I didn't know where John was from apart from approx year of birth in 1933 he lived Shore Cottage Portencross Ayreshire
So 1888 born Blantyre Glasgow Lanarkshire
1891 aged 4yrs Old Monkland NW Lanarkshire
1901 aged 14yrs Castle Buildings, New Cumnock, Ayrshire
Maybe /maybe not 1914 25yrs 3rd Dragoon Guards GS/7346
Widow/widower 1933 he was 42yr she was 41yrs
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... in 1933 he lived Shore Cottage Portencross Ayreshire
So 1888 born Blantyre Glasgow Lanarkshire
I wonder if this is the Shore Cottage still? www.flickr.com/photos/98346459@N00/3413796423/in/photostream/
The 1925 Valuation Roll for the property shows three people registered there:
William Adams - Owner
William Fraser - Tenant
Miss Elizabeth Richmond - Tenant
Unfortunately, the 1925 Valuation Rolls is currently the earliest one you can look at online via SP. They can be searched annually at an appropriate local reference facility however, understand this is not practical for you given your location.
Monica
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I wonder if this is the Shore Cottage still? www.flickr.com/photos/98346459@N00/3413796423/in/photostream/
The 1925 Valuation Roll for the property shows three people registered there:
William Adams - Owner
William Fraser - Tenant
Miss Elizabeth Richmond - Tenant
Unfortunately, the 1925 Valuation Rolls is currently the earliest one you can look at online via SP. They can be searched annually at an appropriate local reference facility however, understand this is not practical for you given your location.
Monica
The photo is lovely thank you...just my type of place. I have been there years ago, went to visit the Castle, walked my dogs on the beach so likely I walked passed those cottages all I know is from the marriage cert in 1933 is shore cottage was his address. As a structural engineer the Firth of Clyde is not too far away so that is a likely place he could have worked.
I wonder how the met? Nellie was in Glasgow, although on marriage certs that might mean she had a suitcase there stayed for a few weeks prior and from the address of the marriage ( Howard St Glasgow) it seems it was a type of registry office.
As for her 1st marriage to a Mr Barker having done some online research the only one I can find is
Name: Nellie Cleminson
Event Type: Marriage
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year: 1919
Registration District: Tynemouth
County: Northumberland
Event Place: Tynemouth, Northumberland, England
Spouse Name (available after 1911): Barker Harry
Volume: 10B
Page: 650
Line Number: 56
But her surname is wrong and
Name: Harry Barker
Event Type: Death
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year: 1930
Registration District: Hemsworth
County: Yorkshire
Event Place: Hemsworth, Yorkshire, England
Volume: 9C
Page: 187
Line Number: 115
A couple of years ago I thought I found him born Mancester in 1889, 1901 Belfast Northern Ireland, 1911 Larne Apprentice Northern Ireland, 1912 Signed the Ulster Covenant in Larne and merrily researched his family back, father from Belfast, mother from Buckinghamshire, even going further back to Cornwall then I found him married to someone else and dying in Belfast in 1920, so after some more research I found him buried in Lisburn NI (WW1 Northumberland Fusiliers) so it was not them, or not him anyway, maybe I need to go and research Nellie Clements I found living in Larne who signed the Declaration in 1912, I know she was in Nottinghamshire in 1911 so it should be easy to see if there are two Nellie's as Larne/Belfast to Firth of Clyde could be a possiblity with his type of work.
.......and last night I realised I also need to write down all Auntie Ellen's stories and first hand knowledge of the times I spent with her or they will be lost for any future generations, now that alone could turn into a book ;D
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By the way, for your own records, John Paterson was born on 18 May 1886 not 1888.
Monica :)
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No certainty that John Paterson was in the Glasgow area in 1927, but this is a link to that telephone directory http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~glasgow/1927names537.jpg
There are too, too many John Patersons showing as having married between 1906 (when he would have been 20 years old, just picked an age for him) up to 1933 when he married Nellie to even begin to guess at this point :-\ In fact, 932 entries :'(
We need some hard fact to connect for him post 1901-33, to help further now...
Monica
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Have you checked to see whether John or Nellie left a will? You may get some clues on possible children for them from the settlement of their estates.
Monica
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3232 entries...wow it was a common name ::)
I am soooooo chuffed I have found their marriage in 1933 it has bugged me for years and so chuffed that I am positive it IS them, correct parents, her mum died in 1922, it says deceased on their cert.
I am supposing he was married in 1911, so think I need to go to the local library and get on ancestry and look at the 1911, find a structural engineer( apprentice) somewhere in the UK aged 25ish, then look for a death of 1st wife before 1933.
Our local library has been demolished and they are building a new one so need to find another one I can use.
Thank you for the birth date. I was working on birth year based on age at death
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Please send me a personal email I can use via Pm www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=17200 and I can send you John's birth details.
I corrected the number of marriages I initially posted (forgot to add years to search parameters :P). Revised down to just 932!
Curious, what did it say regarding John's dad Thomas on his 1933 marriage, alive/deceased? His mother Catherine McFarlane is showing on the fam tree I mentioned as having died on 29 Aug 1939 in 1301 Govan Road (Southern Gen Hosp), Glasgow. No details on the tree re father Thomas' death, although his parents and siblings are included there.
The John Paterson that we are looking for here, looks to have been called after Thomas' father John. Fits well with Scottish Naming Pattern, named after paternal grandfather, when used (see here for example www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm).
Monica
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I am supposing he was married in 1911, so think I need to go to the local library and get on ancestry and look at the 1911, find a structural engineer( apprentice) somewhere in the UK aged 25ish, then look for a death of 1st wife before 1933.
The only source for the 1911 for Scotland is the pay to view site Scotlands People. Ancestry do not have this info, only the English/Welsh 1911 details.
Similarly, marriage and death of John's first wife are only likely to come from SP. There is nothing so far to think that John was living in England prior to marrying Nellie in Glasgow in 1933. However, without more info....do not know!
Monica
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I know John nor Nellie left a Will and I know they had no children, as they would have been my mothers cousins, although many of her cousins where the same ages as my grandparents as my Grandfather was one of the younger ones...strange family I have EVERYTHING goes to the male side and that means my mothers brother, it is all tied up years before they die, so handed over.
Three boys owned the farm passed on years before from my Great Grandfather, my Grandfather, Great uncle Sid and Great Uncle Hugh, the daughters got nothing. Grandfather and Uncle Sid bought out Uncle Hugh, Uncle Sid has no children, my Uncle moved into Great Uncle Sid's farm house and built a bungalow for him ( which my uncle owned) again years before he died, my grandparents moved out of their farm house a bungalow was built for them and my uncle moved a farmer worker in to the farm house for years until my cousin moved in and lives in it now
Nellie moved into one of the farm cottages ( owned previously by my Grandfather) who passed everything onto his son ( my uncle) 15 yrs before my grandfather died. All her property and she had a string of properties were rented out for years proceeds to my uncle, which means no Wills and no tax...Oh they have everything well and truly tied up
Yes I noticed John was named after Thomas's father, one the marriage cert it says Thomas a "carting contractor" ( I think) retired
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The reason I thought they might be in England in 1911 is I searched separately for a John Paterson, Thomas Paterson, Catherine Paterson and Richard Paterson the only census that shows is 1911 England/Wales
Also looked on SP with my last few credits for them to see if any were in 1911 in Scotland, wrong, age, wrong parents, wrong jobs, nothing at all I could find
I think you a correct with regards to John Paterson's first wife Scotland is the likely place for her birth/marriage ( although I couldn't find one on SP)/death
There are 3 Scottish addressed signatures living/working in Ireland of a John Paterson on the Ulster Covenant 1912 one Byver Road Kilwinning, Ayrshire ( living/lodging in Carrowdor NI) and one Scotland: Lanarkshire: North West ( coatsbridge) living in Saintfield NI the other is Edinburgh division living on Drumbow NI. I will need to look on the Irish census to see if any of these match up
Of course there are a few immigration/passenger ship list especially to Canada/US and return so who knows.
So from family stories and first hand information: Where Nellie and John lived was Swinderby Lincs, the large house and grounds they originally lived in was taken over in WW2( so they were in Lincolnshire late 1930s onwards) and at some point it made into a POW camp ( it is now an immigration detention centre), as far as I am aware they moved into one of the cottages on Summer Terrace then, which they owned the whole row of about 6 of them or so, which is where John died and where she moved from in the late 1960s. She would take the POWs to the surrounding farms in the morning, collect them in the evening. She was such a tiny lady it is hard to imagine her doing that, I was told " no one messed with Aunt Ellen" and I have heard that from her brother ( my grandfather), my mother and uncle on separate occasions.
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I wonder how the met? Nellie was in Glasgow, although on marriage certs that might mean she had a suitcase there stayed for a few weeks prior and from the address of the marriage ( Howard St Glasgow) it seems it was a type of registry office.
The Clements family home was at 202 Howard Street. It was a huge house. Lots of generations living their.
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I wonder how the met? Nellie was in Glasgow, although on marriage certs that might mean she had a suitcase there stayed for a few weeks prior and from the address of the marriage ( Howard St Glasgow) it seems it was a type of registry office.
The Clements family home was at 202 Howard Street. It was a huge house. Lots of generations living their.
Me too I wonder.
She was in Bulwell Nottingham 1911 working for a family as a domestic Nurse, her parents also in Nottinghamshire running their farm and there is no family connection to Scotland at all. I had no clue she ever was in Scotland.
Her first husband ( who I can't find a marriage to) was in 1911 'widowed insurance agent Partick, Lanark' he was in 1925 on the Valuation Rolls for Glasgow, a tenant at 123 North John St. He died in 1931 and lived at 18 Cadogan St Glasgow a photographer, and in the probate index 1931 'sealed London "confirmation" of Nellie Barker widow Will'
She married for a second time in 1933 at Howard St which as you say looks like it was registry office.
Her life, being married twice, living in Scotland and being a photographer before I knew her certainly surprised me although I shouln't be surprised she was a remarkable and memorable lady
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We have cross wires. I copied the 'i wonder' quote to explain that 202 Howard Street is NOT a registry office but the clements family home.
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They married at 19 Howard St http://www.theglasgowstory.com/imageview.php?inum=TGSV10097 which was the registry office
Interesting that there was a Clements family abet no relation living further down the street
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On the Glasgow Story webpage, from the valuation roll, entry number 19 on that page is a registry office keeper, however the address 19 Howard Street is a collection of offices and warehouses.
Marriage in a registration office in Scotland did not exist before the Marriage (Scotland) Act 1939.
See also: http://www.talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9806
I take it that this marriage was shown on the certificate as "by declaration in the presence of..." (an irregular marriage, being declared, and gaining a marriage certificate via the Sheriff Substitute of that area).
ADP
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Just looked on the copy of the marriage cert I have.
Under the column of "when, where and how married" it says " By declaration in the presence of...." the marriage took place at 19 Howard Street and by warrant of sheriff substitute of Lanarkshire 30 May 1933