RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => Topic started by: louise182 on Sunday 26 April 15 07:39 BST (UK)
-
Eileen Mary Sellars, dau of James Sellars, electrical engineer married an Australian pilot Philip Hugh Boulton at Hastings, Sussex on 30 January 1940. He told his father in a letter that she was 19 years old and a Roman Catholic, while he was C of E. Her husband was killed in action in 1941 and is buried in the Hero's Corner of Alperton Cemetery in London. We believe that Eileen Mary Boulton nee Sellars may have remarried after the war and it's also possible that she died quite young. (Family legend says so.)
The family in Australia has a photo of Eileen tending Philip's grave post WW2, accompanied by her unnamed son. He looks so much like Philip Boulton that we wonder if this boy was Philip's son. If so, he'd be the last in his line of the Boulton family and we'd like to find him or his children, to pass on many family stories, letters etc. I have many pictures of Philip Hugh Boulton as a baby and young child and have written a book using the Great War letters of Philip Hugh Boulton's father, Dr Nigel Philip Boulton. The child with Eileen in the post WW2 photo may not be aware of his Boulton heritage if his mother remarried when he was young, but he presumably knows his mother's maiden name, hence the heading for this topic.
My specific question at this point is this - from Free BMD, the birth of an Eileen M Sellars is registered in Driffield in the Dec Qtr of 1920. Does anyone have a parish record of the (Catholic) baptism of this child, showing her name as Eileen Mary, father James, with an occupation related in some way to electrical engineering? If I had specific details of her birth, I'd have a better chance of tracking her in later life. Instead of just purchasing the birth certificate, I'm posting this as a question, hoping that the full message might eventually be found by Eileen's descendants.
-
FreeBMD will also give you the name and birth of the son, in Hastings, 1940.
I won't name him, as he may still be living, and that's against RootsChat rules. ;D
-
Checking FreeBMD for marriages for an Eileen M Boulton, 1944-1960, throws up a few possibilities?
The best bet is one from Sheffield (did she return to her parents?):
March qtr 1946
Sheffield district vol 9c, page 912
Boulton, Eileen M
Long, Gilbert J
But also:
March qtr 1945 Brentford to Saben, Ernest
March qtr 1948 Upton-on-Severn to Henton, Victor G
March qtr 1959 Sodbury to Evans, William G
-
Thanks for such a prompt response, KGarrad, but the FreeBMD records I'm looking at online in Australia do not provide that info! Believe me, I've looked and looked under every possible variable of the surnames Sellars and Boulton, and have also looked at the BMD index volumes a few years ago, when they were housed at the Family Records Centre in London. Can you help a little more, please?
-
FreeBMD.org.uk online is the same in Oz as in the UK!
Enter surname as Boulton, and Mother's Maiden Name as Sellars, years 1940 to 1940.
The birth will then be easily found.
And remember that FreeBMD is only looking at the GRO Indexes - so there is no further information to be found.
Unless you use the information to buy certificates! ;D
For potential marriages, I looked at:
Surname: Boulton
First name(s): Eileen
Date range: March 1940 to December 1960
And then I only looked at those with a middle initial of "M".
-
Thanks again. While you are busily typing at your end, our messages are crossing in cyberspace! I've also looked at the possible marriages and the marriage to Gilbert Long seems the most likely, as I couldn't find any relevant deaths for Eileen under the other surnames. If she married anyone, and if it was Gilbert Long, then she may be the Eileen M Long aged 41 who died in Dec Qtr 1960 in Exeter, but if she was born on 23 Feb 1920, then she could have been the Eileen Long ( no middle initial) who died in Birmingham in 1971.
My primary interest is in finding out the name of Eileen's son. If you know, feel free to contact me via my website or Facebook (Google my name, as an author of family histories, in South Melbourne, Australia). Thanks so much.
-
More yet. Yes, you'd think freebmd.org.uk would yield the same results in the UK and Australia, but I can assure you that the search yields no results here. Who can explain that? I'm an experienced researcher and computer user, over many years!
-
OK then, a clue!
The son is named after his father!! ;)
How very strange?!
I can't find it now :-\
-
Sorry - forgot my user name here was louise182 without my surname. It's Wilson. Louise Wilson.
Oh, your latest message has just arrived. Thanks so much. Is there a second initial?
-
I wonder what is going on? Curiouser and curiouser. The family legend is that Philip was on a 'secret mission' in 1941, but that would hardly be impacting anything today!
I'll see if I can find out something through the Hastings end, but do you happen to remember the second initial that was on the screen before the entry disappeared?
-
I've just tried the same search on FreeBMD and a subscription site - no birth found.
KG - did you note the GRO ref? If it's M/1940 Hastings 2b 71, that's the marriage :-\
Carol
-
I'm sure it came up in pink!! ???
Or maybe it's me having a senior moment?! :-\
Apologies - looks as if I have misled you?
-
OK, thanks so much for your efforts, KGarrard and Carol - I'm glad it wasn't me having a senior's moment, if that's what happened. Maybe someone with connections to the family will eventually get in touch, or someone will send me some baptism details for Eileen. Here's hoping. Thanks again.
-
If the child was a legitimate son of Philip, you would think that the family would know.
So was he born before the marriage - seems unlikely unless Philip in England for some time, if you believe they look related.
Can you guess the age of the child from the photo - or is the photo undated so that does not help?
He would now be in his 70's, and so it would be best to try and find him sooner rather than later, just in case.
If you find out who she married we can start looking for wills and death notices and other related information.
Similarly, if we are sure of her birth we can look for siblings and information about them.
Have you looked for any of the family in trees on ancestry etc?
-
... The family in Australia has a photo of Eileen tending Philip's grave post WW2, accompanied by her unnamed son. He looks so much like Philip Boulton that we wonder if this boy was Philip's son. ...
The photo of Philip's widow tending his grave might have been taken with the purpose of sending to his family which makes it more likely that the boy could be Philip's son rather than a child she had by another man.
FreeBMD only covers England and Wales- perhaps a child was born in Scotland or overseas (after all, there was a lot of moving about during the war).
Here's Philip's gravestone on Find A Grave- perhaps leave a message there in cause a descendant sees it. "husband of Eileen Mary Boulton, of Alperton, Wembley." (perhaps Eileen was evacuated to Scotland?- see above note)
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=62496885
-
With an address in Wembley, the 1945 marriage to Ernest Saben starts to look like a good bet?! ;)
-
Just to add that I went looking for Eileen M Boulton on the London ER's, and there is another one married to William T Boulton in 1936. Still both around in 1962 Deptford.
Just in case it got confusing.
-
Ernest and Eileen M Saben living at 54 Fortess Road in 1946 on London ER's
Added : Still there on 1955
I can see one Saben/Sellars birth, but no Saben/Boulton from free bmd.
Saben is a fairly unusual surname.
-
Not a young death, and birth year out, but for consideration:
Deaths
MS Eileen Mary Saben born 4th January 1922, died 11th December 2007, Lowestoft
Probate Grant and Will
Added
?
Births March quarter 1922 Eileen M Sellars / Larkin Hammersmith
But her father looks like Sidney.
-
Have spent 1 credit looking for a male Boulton birth 1940/41 in Scotland- 4 results, none named Philip (or with initial P) but any/all could still be alive so will send to OP by PM in case there later turns out to be a connection.
-
Does the marriage certificate give an occupation or address for Eileen.
One problem with your original post requesting a baptism for Eileen is that Driffield reg district covers lots of places
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/driffield.html
-
aghadowey
I looked for Phillip, Hugh, James and Nigel births in Scotland, but found nothing.
-
aghadowey
I looked for Phillip, Hugh, James and Nigel births in Scotland, but found nothing.
I searched for male Boulton born 1940/1941 and got 4 results. Details have been sent to OP by PM.
-
I had no idea my 'simple' question would arouse such a flood of responses. Thank you, everyone.
Unfortunately, no-one in the family in Australia knows the facts other than what I'm stating here. Philip had an only sibling, a brother in the RAAF who was injured in WW2 and had no children, and his unmarried uncle in the Australian artillery was killed on the Western Front in WW1. His aunt (my grandmother) was the only sister of Dr Nigel Boulton, who was a doctor in the RAMC in WW1. My mother, in her 90s, remembers only that her cousin Philip supposedly had a son and my mother also 'thinks' that Eileen died young, which is Mum's reason for why the family lost contact. It may not be true.
There was no child before Philip's marriage, as he did not arrive in England until June 1939 and he met Eileen soon afterwards. Philip wrote a letter to his father at the time of his marriage in January 1940, saying there were no plans for children until the war was over, but further letters from him have not survived. 'Accidents happen', so Eileen could well have had a child before or just after he was killed (29 May 1941). She was working in the Auxiliary Territorial Service when they married.
The family in Australia would have been strangers to her and she probably felt her duty was done in sending the few photos that we have here. There is a photo of a child aged about two, while the child in the photo taken at Alperton Cemetery looks to be about six years of age. The photos are undated and unidentified, except for a later annotation 'Philip's son'.
Just to reassure anyone reading this topic, in past years I've looked everywhere I can think of without actually spending any money on BDM certificates of possibe relevance to Eileen. I've now concluded that the most important piece of data at this stage would be to find her exact date of birth, so that I can narrow down the options for her death under various possible surnames.
When I started this topic earlier today, a number of messages ago, I was pretty sure she must have been the Eileen M Sellars whose birth was registered at Driffield in the Dec Qtr of 1920. From everyone's feedback, I realise that I should forget about finding the baptism and instead I should purchase the 1920 Driffield cert and also the 1922 Hammersmith cert.
Thank you, everyone, for your help.
PS Thanks for the search in Scotland but there has never been any mention of a Scottish connection.
PPS Before i close, I'm wondering how to get a copy of the will for the 2007 death of Eileen Mary Saben, should I discover that I need that. The will would presumably state at least one family member.
-
You can get a copy of the will here:
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
You need to register, pay your money, and the will can be downloaded a few days later.
-
The mothers maiden name on the birth reg for Driffield is Scott. Also registered in Driffield RD in 1914 is a Gladys V M Sellars (mmn Scott)
Gladys appears as a child of James Sellars who according to his army record married Jane (aka Jeanie) Scott in Driffield reg district in 1914.
His army records are on FindMyPast
James Sellars
British Army Service Records 1914-1920
Driffield, Yorkshire
He was a gunner in the machine gun corps regt no 80579 and came from East Lutton, Malton, East Yorks.
Marriage Mar qtr 1914
Jane Scott (spouse Sellars)
James Sellars (spouse Scott)
Driffield RD 9d 540
-
On the records showing on ancestry he is in farm service - so not an electrical engineer, though his profession could change.
-
I think that James may have died in 1965 - probate James Sellars of East Lutton died 7 nov 1965 -admin to M... Sellars lorry driver - that name ties in with 1923 Sellars birth in Driffield mmn Scott.
I was hoping probate register would give his occupation
-
Thank you, chempat and rosie99. I've woken up to your new messages. Extremely helpful. The farm service occupation was a clue to look elsewhere and I wasn't aware of that online service for recent UK wills. Based on your latest info, I've gone straight to the purchase of the will for the death of Eileen Mary Saben in 2007. I won't be able to publicise its contents, but if the will mentions any Boultons I'll 'report' the connection on this site, to satisfy the curiosity of all the kind people who've offered their assistance in the last 24 hours. More anon.
-
An update for my 'helpers' - the single page probate document for Eileen Mary Saben was duly delivered to my computer, unfortunately with no will attached. Probate was granted to her son born in 1946, with an address for him relevant to 2008. I've found no online clues for his current whereabouts, but I did find mention of Eileen Saben on the website for her local church in Lowestoft, Suffolk. The kind people there have mentioned my quest in the parish newsletter, and I hope someone who was friendly with Eileen will come forward with some information. More anon.
-
I thought it said grant AND WILL on the website.
What a disappointment.
Please do keep us informed.
-
I thought it said grant AND WILL on the website.
It does say Grant & Will
EILEEN MARY SABEN
Date of probate 20 February 2008
2664907
Date of death 11 December 2007
Grant and will
Winchester
I would be taking this up with them as you have paid for this expecting there to be a will ::)
-
I'm afraid 'Grant and will' is a pretty standard clause - but the granting of probate does not automatically imply that the deceased person actually left a will. I've seen this before, in Australia anyhow. To keep everyone happy, I'll send the 'powers that be' a quick email, just in case they made a mistake. Thanks for your concern.
-
I'm afraid 'Grant and will' is a pretty standard clause -
Looking at some examples on a family I have been researching after 1996 (I haven't applied for any of them) some say 'grant only' others say 'grant & will'
-
I've sent an email and have received a holding reply. I'll update you all when a substantive reply comes through.
-
The single page Will for Eileen Mary Saben has now come through but it provides no information additional to the single page probate document. There's no mention of a second son. From electoral data I've found a young woman who lived in the same house as Eileen from around 2002-2007 (her carer?), and I've sent her a message via Facebook. So far, no response. If the matter is ever resolved I'll add another message here. Many thanks for all the interest shown to date.
-
The other woman in the house appears at other addresses prior to 2008. It is more likely that she bought the house when Eileen died. The property was sold March 2008.
If your Eileen did marry Mr Saben the marriage certificate would show her fathers name.
-
Just to close off this set of messages, for the benefit of any future researchers, I have decided that the child in my photograph of Eileen Mary Sellars is most likely her son Robert Daryl Saben, born in mid 1946 to her second husband, and is not a son of her first husband Philip Hugh Boulton, who died in May 1941. It eventually dawned on me that the official and well-established war grave being tended by Eileen and her approx. 5-yr-old son at Alperton Cemetery was likely not installed as WW2 ended but later. Attempts to date the style of her dress also suggested early 1950s rather than mid 1940s. Eileen's Will mentions only one child, her Saben son, and makes no reference to Boulton.
Many thanks to those who offered assistance with my enquiry. If anyone is interested, I've now finished the book which prompted my original question. 'Brothers in Arms, the Great War Letters of Captain Nigel Boulton, R.A.M.C., & Lieut Stephen Boulton, A.I.F.' will be available next week.
Best wishes,
Louise Wilson
Melbourne, Australia