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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Carole Gomez on Sunday 26 April 15 18:42 BST (UK)
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Hello
I'd love some help with my 5th great grandmother Sarah Boswell (b circa 1765 d1867) She married my 5th great grandfather Woodfine Smith in 1811 in Warwickshire. In the records her name seems to be written as Bozwell, but I suspect that's just an error by whoever was writing the record. I have traced Woodfine's family, but I can't find anything about Sarah, her siblings or parents. If anyone has any information I'd be very grateful.
Thanks!
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Ah, I just realised I should have posted this in the Travelling People forum. Is there a way I can move it there? Sorry ::)
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are those dates correct ?...born c 1765 - died 1867 - that makes her 102 ....not many people lived that long in those days ?? and she would have been 46 when she married in 1811 ?
do you know if she was born in Hillmorton - where she married ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVWP-X6P
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the only possible for 1765 in Warwickshire I can find - Buzwell ??
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VHXS-ZHL
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Woodbine was 102 when he died Garstonite!
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My dates could well be slightly iffy for her, but it is true that Woodfine was 102 when he died. Sturdy stock the gypsies! She could have been born anywhere, unlikely to be the same place she married as they were travelling people. I have a book by Josephine Tombs that covers the Family tree of Woodfine from 1750 to 1900, but it doesn't have any information on Sarah as it concentrates on their children. I'll make a start on investigating the link to the Buzwells you posted, it could just be another spelling misunderstanding as seemed quite common. Thanks heaps!
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Woodbine was 102 when he died Garstonite!
quote Hello
I'd love some help with my 5th great grandmother Sarah Boswell (b circa 1765 d1867) ????....says grandmother - so she was 102 as well ??
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The GRO Indexes (as seen on FreeBMD) show ages at dea5th from the mid-1860's on.
I can't see a Sarah Smith, aged 102?
Where did she die?
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I'm not entirely sure where she died. The youngest of her children Trezi Ann was born in 1824 in Grimscote, Northamptonshire, England. The child before that was born in Weedon Lois, Northamptonshire in 1818 and the one before that (also 1818) was in Badden, Northamptonshire so she may have stuck to travelling around the Northamptonshire area. I'm more certain that her year of birth is correct as I've taken than from the Josephine Tombs book. The death may well be wrong
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Good Morning Carole - if you are certain that her birth year is correct - the only one that shows on IGI is this one
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VHXS-ZHL
I know it says Buswell - but you have to consider Travelling Peoples accent ?...
Boswell
Bozwell
Buswell - would all sound the same to a curate - and also not all Curates were completely literate in reading and writing like they are now ??
maybe make a note of the Sarah Buswell christened 27th October in Nuneaton,Warwickshire - parents
John Buswell
Eliza /Elizabeth Buswell
I will see if I can find their marriage to see how that is spelt
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A marriage also in Nuneaton and it is back to Boswell
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVBQ-93B
so - I wouldn't rule out the Sarah Buswell christening in 1775
:)
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Thanks Garstonite - I'd noted your post about that name and am going to head down that road with my research today. As I replied yesterday, the names of the travellers were often recorded with strange spellings, and at the census when the recorders came to the tents and caravans all sorts of different names/spellings etc were written down. Makes it challenging for sure! But as I said yesterday, I think you might have hit on the right lot with John and Eliza there
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on my last post I have just added a possible marriage also in Nuneaton in 1757 - John Boswell / Elizabeth Orte ...now I have to say Orte sounds like a travellers name ??...I will try and find out where the name Orte comes from ?
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on Wiki - it states Boswell (see also Buswell ) so that confirms the 2 spellings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boswell_%28surname%29
Orte - looks to be German
https://www.houseofnames.com/orte-history/German
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Thanks! ;D I've just been looking at that marriage - it seems to fit, with Eliza given as the Mother's name for Sarah. My spidey sense says that feels right. Orte isn't a traveller name I've come across before (but Boswell is certainly a famous traveller name) I've checked it on the web resources I use for tracing the Romani part of my ancestors but can't find any mention of the name as being a common one. Mind you, it could be that her name was written (or given) incorrectly again! Or John may have broken with tradition and married outside the travelling community. Or, perhaps she'd come from a German based travelling family. Fascinating - thanks so much for all your help!
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You're very welcome - it is a very interesting thread :)
for the record - I can't find a birth for Elizabeth Orte in England at all ...
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This non-conformist baptism at Kettering Northamptonshire might also be worth considering
Sarah Buswell 14 Jan 1773 parents John and Ann Buswell, she was 10 mnths old.
A lot of the baptisms on this page including Sarah's say "do Kettering public baptism"
I'm not sure why they would make a point about public baptisms, perhaps someone else will be able to clarify?
If the youngest child was born c1824 and Sarah had been born 1765 she would have been around 59 when that child was born.... not impossible but a later baptism for Sarah would make a bit more sense. :)
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Thanks Rolnora. There's also the added complication of the "interchangability" of the parental roles in some of the groups. I think that having Sarah as "mother" in the census might not mean they're her biological children. It's a head scratcher :-\
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It's a head scratcher :-\
But it's as garstonite said "a very interesting thread "
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Moved to 'Travelling People' for you.
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Brilliant, thanks for moving it dawnsh!
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I've just come accross 17th Jan 1757 marriage banns in Nuneaton for John (back to the Buswell spelling) and Eliz - and this time she has given her name as Orti. They've both signed their names on the banns themselves, which surprised me. Perhaps I've gone down the wrong path after all, but at least the Orti alternative spelling gives me another thing to investigate.
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Hello Carole
I am currently writing a two part book on the early Romany Boswell family 1650-1810. I've collected around 350 different sources on the family for those dates, and made a rough attempt to make some sense of them and put them into some sort of framework.
First thing I would add to what has been said is ages on burial were typically inflated in the Romany community, especially amongst the older more high status families such as the Boswells, Hearn, Lovells, Smiths etc. This is partly because a strong cultural difference existed, age was viewed with prestige in the community, whereas some non Gypsies in comparison might be more inclined to knock years off themselves on census records etc, the tendency is almost always the opposite amongst Romanies. Then of course most only had a vague idea of their exact age anyway, so accuracy is rare to begin with.
Woodfine/Woodbine Smith (or his family) did claim an age of 102 for him at death, but he was actually more likely around 87, he had been baptised the son of Nehemiah Smith and Elizabeth, at Weedon Lois, Northamptonshire on 6th March 1780. This matches well with his eleven known children born to Sarah 1801-1824. His own looseness with his age is shown by the fact he gave his age as 84 in October 1857, three years younger than his true age, but probably his best guess, but just four years later claimed to the 1861 census takers he was 96, so in his own mind he'd aged himself twelve years in just four!
Sarah is likely to have been a similar sort of age to Woodfine, born circa 1780. I don't have a baptism for a Sarah around that time, and certainly there are many children still missing from the record who were either baptised, but the record has yet to be found or were not baptised at all (though church baptism in the community was a lot more common then is sometimes made out).
This record is interesting though
Vagrants pass for Cornation Boswell and child, Sarah, from North Wraxall, Gloucestershire to Bottlesford otherwise Bulford, Wiltshire, 8th July 1780.
I would say this is very likely the wife of Lawrence Boswell, as I don't have any other Cornation Carnation in records at that time, and she had links to Wiltshire. Her marriage, license of October 1774 describes her as Carnation Boswell ‘of Devizes, Wiltshire’.
These are the first three children I have baptised to Lawrence and Carnation:
Robert Boswell, son of Lawrence Boswell and Carnesia 'Travellers' baptised at St Mary the Virgin, Hatfield Broad Oak, Essex on 19th May 1776.
Azgad Boswell, son of Laurence Boswell and Carnatia (or Constantia), 'Travellers', baptised at Cottered, Hertfordshire on 23rd November 1777.
Scamper Boswell, son of Lawrence Boswell and Carnation, baptised at Great Wymondley, Hertfordshire, on 27th January 1782.
So certainly Sarah the child on the vagrants pass could have been a young infant born around 1779/1780, which would explain why she could not be parted with the mother, whereas the elder children, if still alive, were left elsewhere.
There is also the fact that Sarah and Woodfine married at Hillmorton, Warwickshire in 1811. Lawrence and his family were travelling the same region in that era. Lawrence's 25 year old son was buried at Knowle, Warwickshire, about 25 miles away in January 1815, and Lawrence himself was later laid to rest there with him in June 1833, his age then given as 75.
It is not a certain identification but my best bet would be that Sarah the wife of Woodfine, was the same as Sarah the daughter of Lawrence.
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richarde1979 you are a complete genius! Thanks so much for all that information (my favourite part was that Scamper was baptised 2 miles from where I have always lived) - I'd love to buy a copy of your book when you've finished it. I had the Smith one and the The Family Trees of Hercules and Peter Stanley one from the Romany and Traveller Family History Society and they've been super helpful with all my Smith relatives. If it's not too much trouble could you let me know when it's been published, or if there's a pre-publication wait list I can add my name to?
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Hi Carole,
Sorry to gatecrash your thread but I have been following it with great interest! :)
My 5x GGMother was Betty Bossell / Boswell, who was baptised in Lodsworth, Sussex in 1748. She was the daughter of Nicholas Boswell / Bossall / Bossell and Mary Kemp.
The name Boswell seems to be spelt differently every time one of them appears on a document.
I am wondering if the Boswell family were in Sussex too as well as in the counties mentioned already in this thread? One of my DNA matches is a Romany Boswell with Lincolnshire roots, although we don't know whether our link is through my 5x GGM's line or another as yet undiscovered - the match is fairly insignificant and that may be a red herring.
It would be interesting to hear if my mother's paternal - maternal line could indeed have been Romany as we have long thought possible. I too would be really interested in Richarde1979's book when it is published - that post (up there^^) was amazingly detailed but so well explained!
Thank you,
Liz
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Thanks for the interest in the book Carole and Liz. I hope when it is finished the Romany and Traveller Family History Society will want to publish it, will keep you updated.
There are baptisms and various other bits of evidence that the 18th century Boswells did travel in the surrounding counties to Sussex i.e Hampshire, Surrey, Kent, though they are generally found a bit further north.
This is the only source I have which does link them directly to Sussex:
Northampton Mercury 29th September 1760 ‘Tuesday, William Fowler, the father and Mary his wife, Edward Fowler, son of William Fowler and Jane his wife, and Henry Boswell, all travelling gypsies, were brought under a guard of the county militia, from Farnham in Surrey, to the New Gaol in Southwark, for assaulting Henry Lovell on the highway at a place called Rook Down, near Basingstoke in Hants, and taking from him £5 5s 6d in silver. These Gypsies and their accomplices have for a long time infested the counties of Hants, Sussex and Surrey, to the great terror of all persons whose business obliged them to be on the road after evening’ -
I don't have any record of Nicholas Boswell and Mary Kemp as yet, but Kemp was certainly a surname in use in the 18th century Romany community, used by the family that also appears in records as Skemp and Scamp. They are linked in records with the Boswells on at least five occasions 1737-1810, in Gloucestershire, Dorset, Surrey, Hampshire and Suffolk.
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His own looseness with his age is shown by the fact he gave his age as 84 in October 1857, three years younger than his true age, but probably his best guess, but just four years later claimed to the 1861 census takers he was 96, so in his own mind he'd aged himself twelve years in just four!
Just realised I made an error there. Woodfine would have been roughly 77 in 1857, so he overestimated his age as 84, not underestimated.
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Fascinating! Thank you so much for that extra information - if Henry Boswell was one of our Boswell's then at least his descendants gave up terrorising Sussex! I will look out for the Kemp variations too!
Liz 8)