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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: Suzy W on Tuesday 28 April 15 23:52 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am having trouble with Scotlandspeople and a marriage. I know William Lyall married Mary Milne on the 28 March 1850 Jamesfield By Abernethy, Scotland. (This was found out by a previous family member who went to Scotland and found the records, he now has gone to the pearly gates)
Scotlandspeople has nothing coming up. I really would like to know if the records (if any) would have parents name of the groom and witnesses? I have the brides family but not the grooms.
Cheers
Suzy W
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Have you seen the info on SP about pre-1855 marriage info?
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&406
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Not our usual haunts .... however ....
Their daughter Elizabeth was born 13 Sep 1855 at Longforgan. How lucky can you get?
The 1855 birth certificate should provide the date and place of marriage plus a list of other children saying whether they are still alive or dead - plus the usual information.
Throth (www.borenich.co.uk)
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Yes that is correct, one child Elisabeth born there 13 Sep 1855, the first two children in Woodwell, Parish of Kinnaird, then the others were born Mid Craigie, Dundee, Ardownie, 1 Mile North Of Monifieth In Forfar, and the rest in New Zealand.
Now I was able to find three other Lyall families in Lonforgan at the time of Elisabeths birth, David and Susan, Arthur and Jean and George an Euphemia. I wondered if they were related to William at all?
I think my William moved about a bit. It is said he was orphaned at a young age and was born in Dundee area 1830, nothing is coming up on Scotlands people for his birth nor marriage. However I did find a death for a William Lyall 1838 in Dundee age 60, this could be his father.
1851 we find William and Mary a very young married couple living in Woodwell and in 1861 Angus, Purleton with their five children, states he was born in Dundee. The 1841 census is a little tricky as he would of been with another family maybe the Whitton family?
It has remained a mystery for many years on who his parents were. With the Scots naming pattern we presume his father was a William as his first son was named after his wife's father and second son was named William.
I have managed to print off a few pages with the Lyall name in Dundee, sadly I just can not join the dots to possible parents for William.
Cheers
Suzy W
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Does the 1855 birth certificate not give any information about the parents' marriage?
Throth
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The birth cert has gone, not too certain who may have it now. I presume that is where a family member got the dates from and he has since died. He and his brother spent many years tracing the family, even going to Scotland and the record office. I am going off his family report and the dead end is with William Lyall born 1830.
I really thought with modern day searching we could find something new.
It was noted he thought the mother of William was a Barbara Patellow, still nothing with that name is showing, only one daughter having that name born here in NZ. I did note myself a Patillo marrying a Lyall way back to 1673 otherwise no other names like it.
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1855 is the first year of civil registration in Scotland so you should be able to download a copy from ScotlandsPeople.
Throth
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Barbara Patellow, Patillo
Other variants too...........include Pattullo
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Patillo
Annie
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Thanks Troth I do have William and Mary's marriage date, the main problem was finding it on Scotlands People so I could order it :-\
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We can send you a copy of the 1855 birth certificate as a jpeg. which seems to be the source of your relative's information.
Just contact us through the Borenich.co.uk web-site
As for the marriage entry (if it exists), you may need to get someone to search though the film rolls for that parish. Or is it parishes? Jamesfield is pretty close to the Fife / Perthshire boundary.
Both Lyall and Patullo are not unusual names in the Dundee area.
Throth (www.borenich.co.uk)
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Hi Suzy,
Did you use the "Soundex" choice for surname Lyall as there are many variations ???
Annie
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All born to William Lyall & Mary Milne
Elisabeth Lyall
13 September 1855
LONGFORGAN, PERTH, SCOTLAND
Mary Ann Lyall
1 December 1857
KILSPINDIE, PERTH, SCOTLAND
John Lyall
5 December 1859
DUNDEE, ANGUS, SCOTLAND
Charles Smith Lyall
11 December 1861
MONIFIETH, ANGUS, SCOTLAND
Annie
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These with surname "Liol" ??? ;D ::) :P
Name: James Liol
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 10 Aug 1851
Christening Place: KINNAIRD BY ERROL,PERTH,SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 25 Jul 1851
Father's Name: William Liol
Mother's Name: Mary Milne
Name: William Liol
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 09 Oct 1853
Christening Place: KINNAIRD BY ERROL,PERTH,SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 09 Sep 1853
Father's Name: William Liol
Mother's Name: Mary Milne
Annie
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Yes all sorts of names including Syall, Lyle etc.
Thanks Throth I will have a little look at that web site. Certainly many of the records were found by a relation while visiting Scotland many years ago.
A little sad as this man never had children and died two years ago, I have no idea on who or whom got all his papers and photo's. I must try and find out, a great loss if thrown in a skip, so much history was in his house.
Yes ammack that is the children of William and Mary. not too certain where the Smith comes into the naming, Milne is via Mary's side, John her brother, Charles is after Mary's grandfather, Elisabeth Mary's mother, so they certainly used the Scottish naming system. Yes I did come across Liol last week, boy how that name gets muddled
Suzy W
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Sorry, you misunderstood. There is nothing on the Borenich web-site which would be of use, except our contact e-mail if you want the birth certificate sent as an attachment.
Mary Milne was born at St Madoes, so Kinnaird is getting close.
Throth
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Hi
The OPRs on Scotlandspeople are the registers for the Church of Scotland, and the CPRs are the registers for the Catholic Church but there are other denominations such as the Episcopal Church (Anglican Church in Scotland), the United Presbyterian Church, and after 1843, the Free Church of Scotland. These registers, apart from a handful on Familysearch.org, are not online. You also have to keep in mind Scotland recognised Irregular Marriages.
It might be worth downloading the various post 1855 chldrens birth registrations to see if date and place of marriage is consistent. It is not unknown for the information to be false particularly for couples who move around.
Andy
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Unfortunately only the 1855 births recorded where the parents were married.
As the children were all baptised in the parish churches one would expect the marriage to be likewise.
Throth
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Unfortunately only the 1855 births recorded where the parents were married.
As the children were all baptised in the parish churches one would expect the marriage to be likewise.
Throth
Whilst 1856 to 1860 births don't have parents marriage details births from 1861 onwards do.
Andy
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You're absolutely right - apologies
Throth
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Not surprising that you have a problem. Asked a researcher to check the original Abernethy marriages for 1850 using the film spools. Apparently the marriage entries stop at 1794 (as do the burials). It looks as if the parish registers for this period are missing.
Throth
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Hi
Scotlandspeople do have a note that the Kirk Sessions may have marriage information 1845 to 1917. See ch2/743 on link below
http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//research/list-of-oprs/list-of-oprs-appendix1.pdf (http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//research/list-of-oprs/list-of-oprs-appendix1.pdf)
Unfortunately Kirk Sessions are not online but I think they can be viewed at several locations in Scotland
Andy