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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: roly on Friday 01 May 15 11:24 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help pin down the dates of this man?
Known to have been a writer of sorts (Patrick and Kathleen, 1822; The Maid of Snowdon, 1733; Shaun Long and the Fairies, 1835). He died, apparently, at some time during the 1850s. I'm guessing that he'd have been born c. 1785-1790.
I'm chasing, in particular, anything to do with The Second Miss Bailey, performed at the Theatre Royal, Dublin (when?).
roly
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theres this marriage in 1812
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/2e83630552727
and a burial in 1846 age 70 no way of knowing if right man
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/fe998a0407544
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you may already have this
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2006684648/
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According to this he was not born in Ireland however the marriage i gave you seems right
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/The_Poets_of_Ireland_1000341957/243
as in 1850 he's at Preston St, Chymist and perfumer
http://www.failteromhat.com/dublin/people/dir33.pdf
by 1854 Ellen Kertland is the tenant of Preston St suggesting that she is a widow
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&Submit.x=43&Submit.y=11&Submit=Submit&familyname=kertland&firstname=First+Name&baronyname=&countyname=DUBLIN%2C+CITY+OF&unionname=&parishname=
his son William Joseph Kertland was born in 1813
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-277-1-4-097
he died in 1885 age 71 and is buried in Mt Jerome Cemetery,Dublin
see here plot 13361
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/dublin/photos/tombstones/1headstones/mt-jerome90.txt
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Good work dathai !!!
Here's a link to the "The second appearance of Miss Bailey's ghost" image missing form the Congress site. http://www.americanantiquarian.org/Inventories/Peirce/36.jpg
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Have you looked at John Greene's Calendar of Performances - only up to 1820 however.
http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000614044
annclare
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Dublin Weekly Register, 25 July 1846
On the 18th instant, at his house Preston Streeet, William Kertland, Esq, formerly of Ormond Quay. A spritely talent qualified him in early life to contribute to the drama many lively occasional pieces, and his songs were popular and spirited. His known integrity, philanthropy and self sacrificing patriotism, preserved, through every vicissitude, the kindest regards of his fellow citizens to "honest William Kertland".
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Thanks to all correspondents. A life seems to be emerging. I already had the 'Forgotten Books' reference to Kertland's possible birth in England.
Kertland's marriage to Elinor Grehan in 1812 and the widowhood of Ellen Kertland (1854) would appear to tie up together - given the known variation of names in records (such as censuses). The 1846 Dublin Weekly Register note is very useful evidence...Various online references to residence at Preston Street add details..I have one indicating that Kertland lived in Preston Street in 1841.
Was Kertland the chemist who is referred to in some online sources? The Forgotten Books note refers to him as a Dublin tradesman. Or was he a full-time writer (of sorts) - in which case a certain degree of revision is still necessary? There is no doubt that he provided regular material for stage performances...By the way, I haven't seen the Dublin Theatre book and am not likely to be able to (I live in France).
I did find an online note recording a petition 'in the House' (Parliament) from a WK 'complaining that he had been refused admission because of his pro-Catholic sentiments'. Again, the FG note suggests that he was a Protestant.
I have the Laurie and Whittle version of the Miss Bailey ballad - and several other L and W pieces can be found on the Bodleian's Online Ballads archive, one of which is another version of the Miss Bailey story.
roly
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A "... William Kertland, Chemist, 1, Ormond Quay, Essex Bridge, Dublin..." was advertising in the Hibernian Chronicle, 14 May 1808
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See last reply here bottom of page
http://comeheretome.com/2013/02/07/42-oconnell-street/
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grandchildren John Greham
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F51D-HS9
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Dungannon/Thomas_Street/1740264/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Dungannon/Howard_Terrace/868701/
Esther Price
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5FX-R9D
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Upper_Iveagh__Lower_Half_/Castlewellan_Street/1226121/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Castlewellan/Castlewellan_Town/235696/
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Daithi,
I had checked the O'Connell Street details - but can't quite see how the Wm. Kertland mentioned in the notes squares with the Wm. Kertland who lived in Preston Street. I suppose that I'm asking: are there two Wm. Kertlands in the equation? On the other hand, according to another reference that you supplied, Joseph Kertland was the son of Wm. and Elinor. Perhaps there was simply a change of address...
Overall, I'm still not sure that the chemist was the theatre man too...In fact, I'm getting slightly confused (not unknown) in that the whole chemist line of enquiry may be a distraction, partly of my own making.
I don't think that the later references that you've posted help in establishing 'my' Wm. Kertland's own domicile; tho' the links (Greham - sic) are interesting.
roly
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1844 2 Preston Street
http://www.dippam.ac.uk/eppi/documents/11904/page/279948
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Perhaps they are brothers or father and sons
Wilson's Directory 1801
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/dublin/directories/dublin-dir1801k.txt
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OK - reading back and trying to get the brain into gear: the Kertland who moved from Abbey Street to Preston Street seems to have been both chemist and writer for the theatre...It's the O'Connell Street house that may be the more distracting element. Whatever the case, I didn't make the right connections; so thanks, Daithi, for your patience (I seem to remember having to apologise to you for my lack of cop-on during a previous mission. Do excuse me).
I wonder now if the family business was sufficiently profitable to enable our Wm. to concentrate on his theatre pieces.
It remains to find a date of birth and there are one or two possible candidates in UK censuses that I'll chase.
Thanks again.
As for Miss Bailey, the 'cause' of this disturbance, I've a fair amount of detail pertaining to the emergence and prolongation of life of the particular piece - actually of two different versions that appear to have sprung from the Laurie and Whittle camp as broadside ballads...and where there several references to 'performance' in theatres in Dublin and London.
roly
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Perhaps he did die in 1846 as posted reply 6 by hanes teulu with a reference to Ormond Quay
http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000021632
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The Sackville St Kertland's where Joseph Kertland may be the father 1835 to 1837
http://trulock.info/docs/174_1835_1837.pdf
He ? died circa Dec 14th 1837
http://www.irelandoldnews.com/Clare/1837/DEC.html
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He may have been a Catholic
https://books.google.ie/books?id=9rtgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PR240&lpg=PR240&dq=joseph+kertland,sackville+street&source=bl&ots=aarUTy5yj1&sig=wCiLguv4fqLrwjSasx4QlkZ9mOk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g2BHVa7WILKP7AaJzIHAAw&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=joseph%20kertland%2Csackville%20street&f=false
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and possibly not related to the Sackville Kertlands
https://books.google.ie/books?id=OSwsAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA96&lpg=RA2-PA96&dq=william+kertland+prussia+st&source=bl&ots=5NBbr8o08t&sig=g6YBVUYswBFBw8OVIemYmp8M1Qg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=n2lHVb6BO6X47Ab17YDIBA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=william%20kertland%20prussia%20st&f=false
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baptism of Elizabeth Louiza Kertland
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/22aa910137420
viewing the register here looks like Miss Kertland
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/45eb740406700
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The Irish Times in 1895 has a very long detailed letter from a William J. Baily of 26 Brighton Avenue, Rathgar, detailing the genealogy of a Lord Roberts, Commander in Chief of the Army in Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Roberts,_1st_Earl_Roberts
In it he mentions Ellen Greham and William Kertland. The above Lord Roberts being a great grand son of a John Roberts, architect from Co Waterford and Ellen Greham, the grand daughter of John Roberts sister Mary.
It goes on to say that William Kertland was the grand son of Moses Kertland Esq, a landed proprietor of Cheshire and Warwickshire - so that should maybe help looking for a birth for him.
If you can manage to take out a short subscription to the Irish newspaper archive and/or Irish times it would probably be a great help as the Kertlands get a lot of mentions.
Briefly what I have glemed is that he was very active politically in Liberal pro catholic politics and a founding menber of the Mendicity Institution (which is Dublin's oldest charity and still operating) and his politics were not popular with the establishment. His business suffered and by 1843 his friends and acquaintances have set up a fund appealing for donations to help the family financially.
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After following his extensive political/philanthropical activity from about 1816 onwards it was saddening to see his falling on hard times in the 1840s which produced several appeals.
He was referred to in a "slighting manner" in the Irish Times, Dec 1841 which drew a stout defence from Freeman's Journal which included -
" .... made himself many enemies, and while Ireland gained, he lost his customers, his being a business peculiarly dependent for success upon the wealthy and luxurious"
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Once again: thanks to all correspondents.
Although William Kertland was not the ultimate focus for my enquiry, the information supplied has rendered him a fascinating character and one wonders how many others like him - with several career irons and interests - existed and can, through their lives, throw a light on societythat was previously hidden (or almost).
Hasta: some great leads...Following you, I think that I may have located a WK birth in England. I never knew that there was an Irish newspaper archive (was familiar with the Gale project for UK newspapers).
Hanes: exactly the light on society that I referred to above. I'm well aware of the outline history of Ireland in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, having lived there and still having personal connections; but the Protestant/Catholic friction takes on yet another level of local importance through the kind of detail that you've supplied.
I should add that my focus is on the issue of broadside ballads in both the UK and in Ireland. In the case of WK we can see how theatre and printing provided cross-currents.
roly
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To all who are researching William Kertland. I have done extensive research on this family as my wife is descended from his brother. I can give you extensive information on the whole family.
The Kertlands start appearing in 1678 in Walsall Staffordshire and in 1708 one Robert Kertland was born in Walsall but moved to Birmingham where he married Ann Smith in 1744. They had a daughter Ann born in 1752 and a son Joseph born in 1750.
Ann married John Conway and moved to Ireland. Joseph Kertland married Elizabeth Neal in 1774 in Birmingham and had two children we are interested in, William born in 1775 and Joseph jr born in 1792 both in Birmingham.
Shortly after 1792 Joseph sr and Elizabeth move their family to 177 abbey Street Dublin before moving to No 1 Ormonde Quay. Joseph Senior continued to live here with his wife operating as a manufacturing chemist up in until his death in 1822 aged 71. William Kertland was working with his father Joseph in the same business and took on the business after his death. the younger son Joseph Kertland jr was residing in Sackville Street operating as a chemist and perfumer with his wife Mary Bill who he married in 1824 back Birmingham. Elizabeth the widow of Joseph sr died in 1831 and was living with her younger son Joseph when she died.
Joseph jr died in 1837 aged 45 and was succeeded in the business by his son George Bill Kertland until he returned to Birmingham with his wife Anne Hall around 1854. Their son George Minte Kertland became a well known Jewellery designer in London.
William Kertland continued in Dublin until his death in 1846 and was a quite remarkable man. A protestant who fought for Catholic Emancipation and who was actually elected the chair of the Dublin Catholic Society! A founder of the Dublin mendicity, a poet and playwright, an opera composer, a political activist and a manufacturing chemist. Apparently he was beloved by those who knew him and he was a rare man indeed. He married Ellen Graham in 1812 the daughter of Peter Graham and Lucy Murray an influential society family of the time.
their children included the following:
• William Joseph Kertland became a minister in the Church of Ireland.
• Richard Jones Kertland was a commercial traveller in fine arts who died young after falling from his carriage in Birmingham
• Mark A Montserrat Kertland – became a civil engineer in England
• Edwin Henry Kertland became a civil engineer in Canada
• Sarah Georgina Kertland married into the Molesworth and Nassau families who are both commemorated to this day in street names in Dublin.
• James Carlisle Kertland ended up in Toondle West Bengal in India
Edwin Henry Kertland
Edwin Henry Kertland was the son of William Kertland; born in Dublin in January 1826 he emigrated to Canada in 1848 at the relatively young age of 22. First of all qualifiying as a surveyor, he then went on in 1864 to pass his medical exams and spent 2 years with the Northern Army in the USA as a physician. He later became the manager of an investment company.
Douglas Edwin Kertland
Douglas Edwin Kertland was the grandson of Edwin and the great grandson of William and was born in 1887 in Toronto in Canada.
In 1908 he rowed in the Canadian Rowing Team at the London Olympics. He was a coxswain in the eights which won a bronze medal in the rowing competition of those games.
However in his professional life he was a highly successful civil engineer. Douglas Kertland received his architectural training in England. He returned to Canada to work with the architect John Lyle, but by 1926 he had established his own practice in Toronto. Kertland's architectural work included office buildings, hospitals, banks and residential buildings. One of his most famous projects was the Automotive Building at the Canadian National Exhibition, for which he won a design competition.
It is obvious that the Kertland family that resided in Dublin for the first half of the 19th Century were an enterprising team who made a significant contribution to that city on so many fronts; economically, socially, politically and culturally. They were at the forefront of Society and played a leading role in the cause of Catholic Emancipation even though they were themselves Protestants.
However, the more I read about William Kertland the more I admire him as a man of high principles and of true values. The diversity of his contribution to Society was breathtaking and the way he stood firm to his beliefs even to his own detriment was beyond admirable. I like William and I think in his life we see the sort of character and virtues that we should all seek to emulate.
If I can be of any more help please let me know.
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To Henry Gaz - many, many thanks. Your letter has clarified several issues and has confirmed what was emerging as a portrait of an engaging figure.
The life of William Kertland is intriguingly illuminating of the pursuit of writing and the theatre and its social, political and commercial impact; and particularly so apropos my own pursuit of the emergence and dissemination of broadside balladry - what has become known as 'street literature'.
As such, HG, your contribution is most valuable. Thank you again.
roly
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Henrygaz,
A very warm welcome to Rootschat and thanks for the update.
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Thanks for all that information Henry.
Also a detail from William Joseph Kertland registration at TCD here on page 465:
http://digitalcollections.tcd.ie/home/index.php?DRIS_ID=LCN10378529_0003
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I'm delighted it was helpful. I do have other information so if you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
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Do you have any information on Ann (or Ellen) Kertland (b abt 1811 in Dublin) who married Daniel MacNamara (probably in Dublin) and later moved to England
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Sorry. No.
roly
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I'm delighted it was helpful. I do have other information so if you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me.
I'm hoping you are still around Henry, as I have a William KERTLAND bn about 1855 in Ireland (possibly Co. Armagh) who came out to New Zealand and died in Wellington, NZ in 1928. Would he be in your lot?
Here's hoping, :)
Cheers, Glen