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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: gemma6677 on Saturday 02 May 15 12:21 BST (UK)

Title: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Saturday 02 May 15 12:21 BST (UK)
I'm having great trouble trying to find my great grandmother.  Our family knew her as Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896 in Pembrokeshire.  Her mother is M H Griffiths (Maiden name of George) and her father is unknown.  Her adopted father is Thomas William Griffiths.  She lived in Milford Haven, Pembrokeshire on the 1911 census (which is attached).  I'm completely stumped trying to find Elizabeth Mary Griffiths (born George) at all.  The only person i can find is a lady called Mary Elizabeth George with a mother of Margaret Helena George and unknown father born 8/6/1896.  This seems like too much of a coincidence for me.  Does anyone else agree that this is the same person?  Or can anyone else find birth records for an elizabeth mary george?


Image removed , please see reply #7.
Title: Re: Help finding person please......
Post by: garstonite on Saturday 02 May 15 12:47 BST (UK)
Hi Gemma and welcome to Rootschat
census has Elizabeth Mary George aged 14 Step Daughter
current marriage as 10 years
none of the others are step children to the Head - so obviously Elizabeth Mary is the only one not named Griffiths
for what it's worth - I think you do have the right lady
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2FQZ-Z5K
Title: Re: Help finding person please......
Post by: taffie01 on Saturday 02 May 15 12:49 BST (UK)
hi and welcome to rootschat,

on the 1911 census the marriage is shown as 10 years with one child being born.
the youngest child is therefore the child of TW and MH Griffiths.
Elizabeth George, stepdaughter may be illigitimate from your findings so far.

I have found 2 marriages on freebmd;
1900 june quarter   Thomas William Griffiths and Helena George
1903 june quarter   Thomas Griffiths and Elizabeth George. (both at Haverfordwest)

the 1900 marriage is the best match to the census. a marriage certificate would confirm the status of Margaret Helena at marriage.

however, I have a feeling, like you that this could be the same person.

cheers
taffie
Title: Re: Help finding person please......
Post by: taffie01 on Saturday 02 May 15 12:50 BST (UK)
was posting this at same time as garstonite, hence some duplication.
Title: Re: Help finding person please......
Post by: ciderdrinker on Saturday 02 May 15 13:07 BST (UK)
1901 census Mullock Bridge Marloes
Elizabeth Devonold 39 widow West Walton
Martha 12 Roberton
Thomas 6 Hasguard
Mary George 4 foster daughter Walton West

So lodged out while Helena George working perhaps?
The Devonolds were the George's next door neighbours at Hasguard in 1891
John George 44 farmer and butcher Walton West
Margaret 55 Hasguard
Margaret H 22 Walton West
Thomas Wm 18
John J Hasguard
Mary George wid mother 84 Talbenny
Frederick George  grandson 9mths Hasguard
Ann Morgan 17 gen servant
Jane Stokes 12 servant

Thomas Devongold 22 gen lab Roberton West
Elizabeth 28
Martha L 2

Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Help finding person please......
Post by: gemma6677 on Saturday 02 May 15 13:47 BST (UK)
Thankyou all so much.  This has been a huge task for me - and you have all confirmed what my findings have been.  This is my first attempt at tracing any family history and was quite daunted with lots of information.  I didn't list my findings on my post and am glad that others have come to the same conclusion as i have.  I shall post m h george's marriage certificate later, however here's her birth certificate


Image removed , please see reply #7.
Title: Re: Help finding person please......
Post by: taffie01 on Saturday 02 May 15 14:24 BST (UK)
pleased to help, it's good when thing click into place.

cheers
taffie
Title: Re: Help finding person please......
Post by: dawnsh on Saturday 02 May 15 14:33 BST (UK)
Hi Gemma

New members are encouraged to read our 'guidelines for posting' here

http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php

Could I suggest that you remove the images you have posted as both are subject to copyright. Please see the paragraph on copyright.

If you want to publish the details, you must transcribe what you see.

If you are unsure of something in a copyright image, you can post a small portion for deciphering purposes.

Dawn

Title: Re: Help finding person please......
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 02 May 15 16:12 BST (UK)
1901 census Mullock Bridge Marloes
Elizabeth Devonold 39 widow West Walton
Martha 12 Roberton
Thomas 6 Hasguard
Mary George 4 foster daughter Walton West

So lodged out while Helena George working perhaps?

The Devonolds were the George's next door neighbours at Hasguard in 1891
John George 44 farmer and butcher Walton West
Margaret 55 Hasguard
Margaret H 22 Walton West
Thomas Wm 18
John J Hasguard
Mary George wid mother 84 Talbenny
Frederick George  grandson 9mths Hasguard
Ann Morgan 17 gen servant
Jane Stokes 12 servant

Thomas Devongold 22 gen lab Roberton West
Elizabeth 28
Martha L 2


For info.

I think that Elizabeth’s maiden name was Vaughan marriage entry Dec  1888 Haverfordwest (FreeBMD) Thomas DEVONALD and Elizabeth VAUGHAN

MG pob Walton West is in the registration district of Haverford West

If the 1900 marriage Helena GEORGE to Thomas William GRIFFITHS is the correct one for your Margaret Helena GEORGE born 1869

1901 census Pembroke Steynton have following persons

Helena GRIFFITHS 32 (1869 Walwyns Castle)

Thomas GRIFFITHS 39 (1862) Walwyns Castle occ Farmer

Thomas GRIFFITHS 34 (1867) Steynton occ Gen Ordinary Arg. Lab.

John 13, Arthur 9, Mabel GRIFFITHS 5 all born Steynton

the above is only from transcript you would need to verify info. from the original 1901 census

1871 census details for a Thomas Griffiths born 1862 Walwyns Castle grandson William & Martha
living Steynton Pembroke
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5B8-KPH

1881c Thomas Griffiths 19 married grandson of Martha Griffiths
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQWG-CBZ

Marriage/death entry Haverfordwest 
Dec 1880 Thomas Griffiths to Emma Griffiths  death 1899 Emma Griffiths age 41 (1858)

1871  census details for a Thomas Griffiths born 1867 Steynton - he has siblings named
John, Arthur, Mary Ann & Elizabeth
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5BD-W3X

There is this death entry on FreeBMD
Sep 1925 Pembroke vol 11a page 1110
Margaret H GRIFFITHS age 56 (1869)

Welcome to Rootschat  :)

To amend your post use the modify button if it has been longer than 24 hours from your first posting, you need to contact a moderator, using the Report to Moderator button and tell them the topic needs modifying

Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Thursday 03 December 15 18:35 GMT (UK)
Thankyou all for your kind efforts in helping me.  I have one other mystery i'm afraid.  Margaret Helena George (listed above as mary elizabeths mother) and on birth certificate lived in walton west, pembrokeshire.  On all the census' i find, it lists her mother as Margaret Griffiths and her father John George.  I have her mothers name listed on her birth certificate as Mary Morgan and correct father, John George!  I'm stumped.  Nowhere can i find John George living with Mary Morgan in Walton West with Margaret Helena as their child. >:(
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 03 December 15 19:40 GMT (UK)
  I have one other mystery i'm afraid. 

Margaret Helena George (listed above as mary elizabeths mother) and on birth certificate lived in walton west, pembrokeshire.

 On all the census' i find, it lists her mother as Margaret Griffiths and her father John George.

 I have her mothers name listed on her birth certificate as Mary Morgan and correct father, John George!

 I'm stumped.  Nowhere can i find John George living with Mary Morgan in Walton West with Margaret Helena as their child. >:(

I can't either  :(


according to latest census they have been married 41 years

This appears to be the marriage entry for

John George to Margaret Griffiths Dec 1869 Haverfordwest 11a 1259

1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5BD-S2V
Margaret H age 2 with John & Margaret

1881c https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXK-DSFD
Margaret Helene age 13 with John & Margaret

and there’s a

Margaret Griffiths single born Hasguard on 1861 census
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M787-T84



Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Thursday 03 December 15 19:55 GMT (UK)
I know Ladyhawk!  After many months of being contented i have found most of my family history, today i look at Margaret Helenas birth certificate and lo behold, her mother is listed as Mary George (Morgan)! :D
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 03 December 15 19:55 GMT (UK)
I have her mothers name listed on her birth certificate as Mary Morgan and correct father, John George!  I'm stumped.  Nowhere can i find John George living with Mary Morgan in Walton West with Margaret Helena as their child. >:(

Purely speculation as I have no proof to confirm

perhaps Margaret Helena's mother died during/after child birth

Margaret Helena George birth Sep 1868 Haverfordwest

John George married Margaret Griffiths Dec 1869 Haverfordwest

Edited removed death entries for Mary Morgan[/b] as John did marry a Mary Morgan
so she would have died as a Mary George
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Thursday 03 December 15 20:15 GMT (UK)
Definitely possible.  On the birth certificate for Margaret Helena, it does state Mary George formerly Morgan.  I'm thankful for all your help
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 03 December 15 20:20 GMT (UK)
Definitely possible.  On the birth certificate for Margaret Helena, it does state Mary George formerly Morgan.  I'm thankful for all your help

I have amended my post above and removed the death entries of Mary Morgan
as you have now found a possible marriage for John George  to Mary Morgan
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Thursday 03 December 15 20:22 GMT (UK)
I have found a marriage between John George & a Mary Morgans in 1868 (the same year as the birth of Margaret Helena) so have ordered an marriage certificate as a long shot.
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 03 December 15 20:29 GMT (UK)
That looks promising fingers crossed

There's this death entry

Sep 1869 Narberth   11a   387
GEORGE   Mary    age 29 (1840)   
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: osprey on Thursday 03 December 15 20:30 GMT (UK)
the marriage of John George & Margaret Griffiths 21 Oct 1869 in Hasguard shows John to be a widower. His father was James George, also a farmer.

By the way, you need to remove that screen shot, it is copyright. You have to transcribe the records yourself from sites where you pay for info.

As you are using FindMyPast, many of the records from parishes in Wales are available there.
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Thursday 03 December 15 20:35 GMT (UK)
Thankyou for all your help, i think it does make sense that Mary Morgans/George died during or after childbirth and then married Margaret Griffiths.
(sorry about the screenshot, i didn't know)
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Thursday 03 December 15 20:37 GMT (UK)
does anyone know where i'm able to find obituaries?
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: osprey on Thursday 03 December 15 20:48 GMT (UK)
Margaret Helena was baptised 28 Feb 1869 in Walton West, daughter of John George & Mary.

The death entry for the Mary George registered at Narberth was for a Mary who lived at Cotland Mill in Llawhaden. The death for the mother of Margaret Helena is more likely to have registered at Haverfordwest.

Welsh newspapers are available online

http://newspapers.library.wales/
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Ladyhawk on Friday 04 December 15 08:38 GMT (UK)

Margaret Helena was baptised 28 Feb 1869 in Walton West, daughter of John George & Mary.

The death entry for the Mary George registered at Narberth was for a Mary who lived at Cotland Mill in Llawhaden.

The death for the mother of Margaret Helena is more likely to have registered at Haverfordwest.


It's possible that this might be Mary's death entry it's registered in the
same year/quarter as Margaret Helena George's birth Sep 1868 Haverfordwest

Sep 1868 Haverfordwest 11a 436
Mary GEORGE died age 24 (1844)

there's also another one in the same place/quarter/year this Mary George is aged 40 (1828)

When you receive John George & Mary Morgan's m/c that should hopefully give you her
father's name and possibly her age then you should be able to find her on the census.   


Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Friday 04 December 15 10:28 GMT (UK)
thanks for your help lady hawk.  it is looking likely she dies in childbirth.  i shall play the old waiting game for the certificated to come through, fingers crossed.x x
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Ladyhawk on Friday 04 December 15 12:32 GMT (UK)
it is looking likely she dies in childbirth. 

i shall play the old waiting game for the certificated to come through, fingers crossed.x x


Yes, fingers crossed and good luck - please let us know how you get on  :)

ADDED

Just in case either of the deaths relate to your Mary George

Mary George age 24 Burial 1 Oct 1868 Camrose Pembroke
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCBJ-JH3

and

Mary George age 40 Llanrhian Pembroke
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCBV-7JK



Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Ladyhawk on Friday 04 December 15 13:03 GMT (UK)
Have posted this just in case it relates to the Mary George burial in Camrose that I have posted
 
May just be a coincidence with them is a servant named Elizabeth George & this Mary's mother
is named Margaret
1851c https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVV-2NDP
Mary Morgans born 1844 Camrose

Mary's m/c should hopefully confirm her father's name


Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Sunday 06 December 15 13:58 GMT (UK)
I have just received both marriage certificates - John george m margaret griffiths - 1869 & john george m mary morgans - 1868.  Both john georges match, they're both from walton west, a bachelor in one and widower in later one, both farmers.  The marriage cert. on the later one only states age as of full age?  I'm making the strong assumption that this is the same man and that mary morgan died during or shortly after childbirth with margaret helena.  My next move i suppose is to get mary morgans birth cert & death cert.        ;D
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Sunday 06 December 15 14:11 GMT (UK)
Also Ladyhawk,
Mary Morgans father was william morgans and lived in pelcomb, which is a small stones throw away from camrose, so it would suggest that this is her family.
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 06 December 15 15:32 GMT (UK)

I have just received both marriage certificates -

John george m margaret griffiths - 1869 &
john george m mary morgans - 1868
 
Both john georges match, they're both from walton west,
a bachelor in one and
widower in later one,
both farmers. 

I'm making the strong assumption that this is the same man and that mary morgan died during or shortly after childbirth with margaret helena.

My next move i suppose is to get mary morgans birth cert & death cert.       

Both marriages certainly seem to be a good match for your John George father of Margaret Helena
born c1868

Who are named as witnesses to both marriages?
Perhaps they may be family members

If this is the correct death entry for her mother

Sep 1868 Haverfordwest 11a 436
Mary GEORGE died age 24 (1844)

and

burial 1 Oct 1868 Camrose Pembroke,

Hopefully on the d/c of Mary George the informant would be her husband John George

Osprey gave  Margaret Helena's baptism date as 28 Feb 1869 in Walton West, daughter of John George & Mary

Margaret Helena's birth reg Sep 1868 Haverfordwest

What date of birth is given for Margaret on her b/c?
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Sunday 06 December 15 16:48 GMT (UK)
thankyou for your reply Ladyhawk.
the witnesses are different on both marriage certs.
Margaret Helenas birth date is 25/9/1969 - so would fit in with what osprey found.
will order the d/c this evening - hopefully have it back tues.
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 06 December 15 17:32 GMT (UK)

the witnesses are different on both marriage certs.


Have you checked to see if they may be a relation to either John George or Mary Morgans ?


Margaret Helenas birth date is 25/9/1969 - so would fit in with what osprey found.


Did you mean to type Sep. 1868 as the birth year for Margaret as her baptism Feb 1869

The Haverfordwest birth reg. I posted  for Margaret Helena George was Sep qtr. 1868

will order the d/c this evening - hopefully have it back tues.

Fingers crossed that it will be the correct one  :)
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Sunday 06 December 15 17:40 GMT (UK)
there's a possibility of siblings marrying siblings/relatives

Haverfordwest and Milford Haven Telegraph and General Weekly Reporter 13th June 1900

On the 7th inst., at Sandy Hill Baptist Chapel, by the pastor, Rev. T. Thomas, Thomas Griffiths Studda, Steynton, to Helena, only daughter of Mr John George, Lower Hasguard, Little Haven R.S.O.


The Pembroke County Guardian and Cardigan Reporter 19th April 1907

April 16th at Sandy Hill Chapel, by the Rev. T. B. Roberts, John James, youngest son of Mr. John George, Hasguard, to Martha Jane, eldest daughter of Mr. Thomas Griffiths, Studda.


Another of John George's children marries a Griffiths, but I think a different family

The Pembrokeshire Herald and General Advertiser  3rd July 1903
Thomas William, eldest son of Mr John George, Hasguard, to Martha Ann, second daughter of Mr D. Griffiths, Roman's Castle.


There's also a death announcement for Margaret George in 1919, but sadly can't see one for Mary in 1868, which would have been helpful!

John George himself seems to have been quite a high profile chap locally - many years the Liberal Party agent and a member of the Board of Guardians

 
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Sunday 06 December 15 17:41 GMT (UK)
Helena took on quite a challenge


Haverfordwest and Milford Haven Telegraph and General Weekly Reporter  2nd August 1899

OBITUARY.  The death took place on Friday evening under very sad circumstances of Mrs Griffiths, of Studda Farm, Steynton. It appears that on the day referred to deceased was delivered of a son which was still-born, and shortly after giving birth to the child, despite everything that medical skill could do, she herself expired. Greatt sympathy is felt for Mr Griffiths and his large family of twelve children, most of whom are quite young, in their painfully sudden bereavement.
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Sunday 06 December 15 17:45 GMT (UK)
So, looks like Margaret Helena's brother married her stepdaughter!
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Sunday 06 December 15 19:08 GMT (UK)
Thankyou all very much :D
Ladyhawk - i haven't looked into mary morgans' family, so not sure about her witnesses, but they did share her surname and yes - i did get her birth date wrong - was supposed to put 1868.
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Sunday 06 December 15 19:28 GMT (UK)
Everyone has helped me so much.  I am looking into your post Mabel - very interesting.  I did know about both marriages, but was unaware that martha jane was the daughter of thomas griffiths - will check my records now.
The obituary was so sad :'(
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Sunday 06 December 15 19:57 GMT (UK)
I have also just checked and martha does match.  I'm not sure if i'm allowed, but have taken a screenshot showing the relation
Title: Re: Help finding person please...... Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896
Post by: gemma6677 on Sunday 06 December 15 20:44 GMT (UK)
The liberal link with john george is interesting.  My nan has said that a member of her family worked closely with david lloyd george, maybe this was him