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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: gemma6677 on Saturday 02 May 15 12:21 BST (UK)
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I'm having great trouble trying to find my great grandmother. Our family knew her as Elizabeth Mary Griffiths - born in June in 1896 in Pembrokeshire. Her mother is M H Griffiths (Maiden name of George) and her father is unknown. Her adopted father is Thomas William Griffiths. She lived in Milford Haven, Pembrokeshire on the 1911 census (which is attached). I'm completely stumped trying to find Elizabeth Mary Griffiths (born George) at all. The only person i can find is a lady called Mary Elizabeth George with a mother of Margaret Helena George and unknown father born 8/6/1896. This seems like too much of a coincidence for me. Does anyone else agree that this is the same person? Or can anyone else find birth records for an elizabeth mary george?
Image removed , please see reply #7.
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Hi Gemma and welcome to Rootschat
census has Elizabeth Mary George aged 14 Step Daughter
current marriage as 10 years
none of the others are step children to the Head - so obviously Elizabeth Mary is the only one not named Griffiths
for what it's worth - I think you do have the right lady
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2FQZ-Z5K
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hi and welcome to rootschat,
on the 1911 census the marriage is shown as 10 years with one child being born.
the youngest child is therefore the child of TW and MH Griffiths.
Elizabeth George, stepdaughter may be illigitimate from your findings so far.
I have found 2 marriages on freebmd;
1900 june quarter Thomas William Griffiths and Helena George
1903 june quarter Thomas Griffiths and Elizabeth George. (both at Haverfordwest)
the 1900 marriage is the best match to the census. a marriage certificate would confirm the status of Margaret Helena at marriage.
however, I have a feeling, like you that this could be the same person.
cheers
taffie
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was posting this at same time as garstonite, hence some duplication.
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1901 census Mullock Bridge Marloes
Elizabeth Devonold 39 widow West Walton
Martha 12 Roberton
Thomas 6 Hasguard
Mary George 4 foster daughter Walton West
So lodged out while Helena George working perhaps?
The Devonolds were the George's next door neighbours at Hasguard in 1891
John George 44 farmer and butcher Walton West
Margaret 55 Hasguard
Margaret H 22 Walton West
Thomas Wm 18
John J Hasguard
Mary George wid mother 84 Talbenny
Frederick George grandson 9mths Hasguard
Ann Morgan 17 gen servant
Jane Stokes 12 servant
Thomas Devongold 22 gen lab Roberton West
Elizabeth 28
Martha L 2
Ciderdrinker
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Thankyou all so much. This has been a huge task for me - and you have all confirmed what my findings have been. This is my first attempt at tracing any family history and was quite daunted with lots of information. I didn't list my findings on my post and am glad that others have come to the same conclusion as i have. I shall post m h george's marriage certificate later, however here's her birth certificate
Image removed , please see reply #7.
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pleased to help, it's good when thing click into place.
cheers
taffie
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Hi Gemma
New members are encouraged to read our 'guidelines for posting' here
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php
Could I suggest that you remove the images you have posted as both are subject to copyright. Please see the paragraph on copyright.
If you want to publish the details, you must transcribe what you see.
If you are unsure of something in a copyright image, you can post a small portion for deciphering purposes.
Dawn
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1901 census Mullock Bridge Marloes
Elizabeth Devonold 39 widow West Walton
Martha 12 Roberton
Thomas 6 Hasguard
Mary George 4 foster daughter Walton West
So lodged out while Helena George working perhaps?
The Devonolds were the George's next door neighbours at Hasguard in 1891
John George 44 farmer and butcher Walton West
Margaret 55 Hasguard
Margaret H 22 Walton West
Thomas Wm 18
John J Hasguard
Mary George wid mother 84 Talbenny
Frederick George grandson 9mths Hasguard
Ann Morgan 17 gen servant
Jane Stokes 12 servant
Thomas Devongold 22 gen lab Roberton West
Elizabeth 28
Martha L 2
For info.
I think that Elizabeth’s maiden name was Vaughan marriage entry Dec 1888 Haverfordwest (FreeBMD) Thomas DEVONALD and Elizabeth VAUGHAN
MG pob Walton West is in the registration district of Haverford West
If the 1900 marriage Helena GEORGE to Thomas William GRIFFITHS is the correct one for your Margaret Helena GEORGE born 1869
1901 census Pembroke Steynton have following persons
Helena GRIFFITHS 32 (1869 Walwyns Castle)
Thomas GRIFFITHS 39 (1862) Walwyns Castle occ Farmer
Thomas GRIFFITHS 34 (1867) Steynton occ Gen Ordinary Arg. Lab.
John 13, Arthur 9, Mabel GRIFFITHS 5 all born Steynton
the above is only from transcript you would need to verify info. from the original 1901 census
1871 census details for a Thomas Griffiths born 1862 Walwyns Castle grandson William & Martha
living Steynton Pembroke
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5B8-KPH
1881c Thomas Griffiths 19 married grandson of Martha Griffiths
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQWG-CBZ
Marriage/death entry Haverfordwest
Dec 1880 Thomas Griffiths to Emma Griffiths death 1899 Emma Griffiths age 41 (1858)
1871 census details for a Thomas Griffiths born 1867 Steynton - he has siblings named
John, Arthur, Mary Ann & Elizabeth
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5BD-W3X
There is this death entry on FreeBMD
Sep 1925 Pembroke vol 11a page 1110
Margaret H GRIFFITHS age 56 (1869)
Welcome to Rootschat :)
To amend your post use the modify button if it has been longer than 24 hours from your first posting, you need to contact a moderator, using the Report to Moderator button and tell them the topic needs modifying
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Thankyou all for your kind efforts in helping me. I have one other mystery i'm afraid. Margaret Helena George (listed above as mary elizabeths mother) and on birth certificate lived in walton west, pembrokeshire. On all the census' i find, it lists her mother as Margaret Griffiths and her father John George. I have her mothers name listed on her birth certificate as Mary Morgan and correct father, John George! I'm stumped. Nowhere can i find John George living with Mary Morgan in Walton West with Margaret Helena as their child. >:(
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I have one other mystery i'm afraid.
Margaret Helena George (listed above as mary elizabeths mother) and on birth certificate lived in walton west, pembrokeshire.
On all the census' i find, it lists her mother as Margaret Griffiths and her father John George.
I have her mothers name listed on her birth certificate as Mary Morgan and correct father, John George!
I'm stumped. Nowhere can i find John George living with Mary Morgan in Walton West with Margaret Helena as their child. >:(
I can't either :(
according to latest census they have been married 41 years
This appears to be the marriage entry for
John George to Margaret Griffiths Dec 1869 Haverfordwest 11a 1259
1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5BD-S2V
Margaret H age 2 with John & Margaret
1881c https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXK-DSFD
Margaret Helene age 13 with John & Margaret
and there’s a
Margaret Griffiths single born Hasguard on 1861 census
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M787-T84
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I know Ladyhawk! After many months of being contented i have found most of my family history, today i look at Margaret Helenas birth certificate and lo behold, her mother is listed as Mary George (Morgan)! :D
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I have her mothers name listed on her birth certificate as Mary Morgan and correct father, John George! I'm stumped. Nowhere can i find John George living with Mary Morgan in Walton West with Margaret Helena as their child. >:(
Purely speculation as I have no proof to confirm
perhaps Margaret Helena's mother died during/after child birth
Margaret Helena George birth Sep 1868 Haverfordwest
John George married Margaret Griffiths Dec 1869 Haverfordwest
Edited removed death entries for Mary Morgan[/b] as John did marry a Mary Morgan
so she would have died as a Mary George
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Definitely possible. On the birth certificate for Margaret Helena, it does state Mary George formerly Morgan. I'm thankful for all your help
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Definitely possible. On the birth certificate for Margaret Helena, it does state Mary George formerly Morgan. I'm thankful for all your help
I have amended my post above and removed the death entries of Mary Morgan
as you have now found a possible marriage for John George to Mary Morgan
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I have found a marriage between John George & a Mary Morgans in 1868 (the same year as the birth of Margaret Helena) so have ordered an marriage certificate as a long shot.
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That looks promising fingers crossed
There's this death entry
Sep 1869 Narberth 11a 387
GEORGE Mary age 29 (1840)
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the marriage of John George & Margaret Griffiths 21 Oct 1869 in Hasguard shows John to be a widower. His father was James George, also a farmer.
By the way, you need to remove that screen shot, it is copyright. You have to transcribe the records yourself from sites where you pay for info.
As you are using FindMyPast, many of the records from parishes in Wales are available there.
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Thankyou for all your help, i think it does make sense that Mary Morgans/George died during or after childbirth and then married Margaret Griffiths.
(sorry about the screenshot, i didn't know)
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does anyone know where i'm able to find obituaries?
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Margaret Helena was baptised 28 Feb 1869 in Walton West, daughter of John George & Mary.
The death entry for the Mary George registered at Narberth was for a Mary who lived at Cotland Mill in Llawhaden. The death for the mother of Margaret Helena is more likely to have registered at Haverfordwest.
Welsh newspapers are available online
http://newspapers.library.wales/
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Margaret Helena was baptised 28 Feb 1869 in Walton West, daughter of John George & Mary.
The death entry for the Mary George registered at Narberth was for a Mary who lived at Cotland Mill in Llawhaden.
The death for the mother of Margaret Helena is more likely to have registered at Haverfordwest.
It's possible that this might be Mary's death entry it's registered in the
same year/quarter as Margaret Helena George's birth Sep 1868 Haverfordwest
Sep 1868 Haverfordwest 11a 436
Mary GEORGE died age 24 (1844)
there's also another one in the same place/quarter/year this Mary George is aged 40 (1828)
When you receive John George & Mary Morgan's m/c that should hopefully give you her
father's name and possibly her age then you should be able to find her on the census.
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thanks for your help lady hawk. it is looking likely she dies in childbirth. i shall play the old waiting game for the certificated to come through, fingers crossed.x x
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it is looking likely she dies in childbirth.
i shall play the old waiting game for the certificated to come through, fingers crossed.x x
Yes, fingers crossed and good luck - please let us know how you get on :)
ADDED
Just in case either of the deaths relate to your Mary George
Mary George age 24 Burial 1 Oct 1868 Camrose Pembroke
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCBJ-JH3
and
Mary George age 40 Llanrhian Pembroke
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCBV-7JK
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Have posted this just in case it relates to the Mary George burial in Camrose that I have posted
May just be a coincidence with them is a servant named Elizabeth George & this Mary's mother
is named Margaret
1851c https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVV-2NDP
Mary Morgans born 1844 Camrose
Mary's m/c should hopefully confirm her father's name
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I have just received both marriage certificates - John george m margaret griffiths - 1869 & john george m mary morgans - 1868. Both john georges match, they're both from walton west, a bachelor in one and widower in later one, both farmers. The marriage cert. on the later one only states age as of full age? I'm making the strong assumption that this is the same man and that mary morgan died during or shortly after childbirth with margaret helena. My next move i suppose is to get mary morgans birth cert & death cert. ;D
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Also Ladyhawk,
Mary Morgans father was william morgans and lived in pelcomb, which is a small stones throw away from camrose, so it would suggest that this is her family.
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I have just received both marriage certificates -
John george m margaret griffiths - 1869 &
john george m mary morgans - 1868
Both john georges match, they're both from walton west,
a bachelor in one and
widower in later one,
both farmers.
I'm making the strong assumption that this is the same man and that mary morgan died during or shortly after childbirth with margaret helena.
My next move i suppose is to get mary morgans birth cert & death cert.
Both marriages certainly seem to be a good match for your John George father of Margaret Helena
born c1868
Who are named as witnesses to both marriages?
Perhaps they may be family members
If this is the correct death entry for her mother
Sep 1868 Haverfordwest 11a 436
Mary GEORGE died age 24 (1844)
and
burial 1 Oct 1868 Camrose Pembroke,
Hopefully on the d/c of Mary George the informant would be her husband John George
Osprey gave Margaret Helena's baptism date as 28 Feb 1869 in Walton West, daughter of John George & Mary
Margaret Helena's birth reg Sep 1868 Haverfordwest
What date of birth is given for Margaret on her b/c?
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thankyou for your reply Ladyhawk.
the witnesses are different on both marriage certs.
Margaret Helenas birth date is 25/9/1969 - so would fit in with what osprey found.
will order the d/c this evening - hopefully have it back tues.
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the witnesses are different on both marriage certs.
Have you checked to see if they may be a relation to either John George or Mary Morgans ?
Margaret Helenas birth date is 25/9/1969 - so would fit in with what osprey found.
Did you mean to type Sep. 1868 as the birth year for Margaret as her baptism Feb 1869
The Haverfordwest birth reg. I posted for Margaret Helena George was Sep qtr. 1868
will order the d/c this evening - hopefully have it back tues.
Fingers crossed that it will be the correct one :)
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there's a possibility of siblings marrying siblings/relatives
Haverfordwest and Milford Haven Telegraph and General Weekly Reporter 13th June 1900
On the 7th inst., at Sandy Hill Baptist Chapel, by the pastor, Rev. T. Thomas, Thomas Griffiths Studda, Steynton, to Helena, only daughter of Mr John George, Lower Hasguard, Little Haven R.S.O.
The Pembroke County Guardian and Cardigan Reporter 19th April 1907
April 16th at Sandy Hill Chapel, by the Rev. T. B. Roberts, John James, youngest son of Mr. John George, Hasguard, to Martha Jane, eldest daughter of Mr. Thomas Griffiths, Studda.
Another of John George's children marries a Griffiths, but I think a different family
The Pembrokeshire Herald and General Advertiser 3rd July 1903
Thomas William, eldest son of Mr John George, Hasguard, to Martha Ann, second daughter of Mr D. Griffiths, Roman's Castle.
There's also a death announcement for Margaret George in 1919, but sadly can't see one for Mary in 1868, which would have been helpful!
John George himself seems to have been quite a high profile chap locally - many years the Liberal Party agent and a member of the Board of Guardians
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Helena took on quite a challenge
Haverfordwest and Milford Haven Telegraph and General Weekly Reporter 2nd August 1899
OBITUARY. The death took place on Friday evening under very sad circumstances of Mrs Griffiths, of Studda Farm, Steynton. It appears that on the day referred to deceased was delivered of a son which was still-born, and shortly after giving birth to the child, despite everything that medical skill could do, she herself expired. Greatt sympathy is felt for Mr Griffiths and his large family of twelve children, most of whom are quite young, in their painfully sudden bereavement.
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So, looks like Margaret Helena's brother married her stepdaughter!
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Thankyou all very much :D
Ladyhawk - i haven't looked into mary morgans' family, so not sure about her witnesses, but they did share her surname and yes - i did get her birth date wrong - was supposed to put 1868.
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Everyone has helped me so much. I am looking into your post Mabel - very interesting. I did know about both marriages, but was unaware that martha jane was the daughter of thomas griffiths - will check my records now.
The obituary was so sad :'(
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I have also just checked and martha does match. I'm not sure if i'm allowed, but have taken a screenshot showing the relation
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The liberal link with john george is interesting. My nan has said that a member of her family worked closely with david lloyd george, maybe this was him