RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: emmsthheight on Saturday 02 May 15 23:21 BST (UK)

Title: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 02 May 15 23:21 BST (UK)
Hi :)

My gg grandfather Gurney Patmore married Sarah Cantrill from Derby, daughter of hotel / pub owner Henry Cantrill in a double wedding with Sarah's sister Caroline who married Thomas? Cox.

The Cantrill family had the Saracen's Head in St James Lane and the Royal Hotel.

After the marriage in 1859, Gurney and Sarah emigrated to Melbourne Australia where he was editor on the Argus having been editor of the Derby Mercury.

They had five children then returned and had one more.  Gurney was in ill health and they spent time in Salford and Essex, aided by Gurney's brother Coventry a poet.

We know loads about the Patmores but my real question is does anyone know or are they related to the Cantrill side of the family? 

I know it was a large family and I have a few entries from the Mercury online.

Also, are there any old photo's of the hotels or pubs and do they still exist?

I'd love to swap stories with anyone.

Best wishes

Emms :)
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: chempat on Sunday 03 May 15 07:56 BST (UK)
You asked if they still existed - this one is in Victoria Street, so is it the same one?

http://directory.thesun.co.uk/13784193

Take a google map walk down the street?

Added:
St James's Lane does not exist in Derby.
Possibly renamed St James's Street
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: spendlove on Sunday 03 May 15 20:47 BST (UK)
Hi,

From the Census:-

1841  Nags Head Inn, St. Peters Street Derby
1851  Kings Head, Corn Market, Derby
1861 Henry deceased, Wife Elizabeth at Royal Hotel, Corn Market, Derby

Spendlove
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Monday 04 May 15 00:09 BST (UK)
Thank you Spendlove

I have actually seen some of the census but I'm between flats and don't have all my stuff so that's great to see.  I'll have a look at the originals from what you've given me.

I actually have both marriage certificates - with about six witnesses each!  Slight dramatic touch among our Patmores!  Also Caroline's birth certificate - Sarah was too old.  Some of the family moved to Salford and Gurney and Sarah spent time there when they returned from Australia.

Thank you again.

Best wishes

Emms :)
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: GaryBrianKent on Saturday 30 May 15 07:01 BST (UK)
Hi Emms

I am researching information on Gurney Patmore for a book on Australian bookcollectors, he sold his fine collection in Melbourne in 1864. Grateful fort your asistance and I can pass on anything I have found.

Thanks and regards

Gary Kent
Canberra, Australia
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: SmallTownGirl on Sunday 31 May 15 14:14 BST (UK)
If this link works (?), it should lead to a photo of the Royal Hotel

http://www.picturethepast.org.uk/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;DRBY006670&pos=1&action=zoom&id=35935

If not, go to www.picturethepast.org.uk and in the search box put Royal Hotel, and then select Derby for the place. Then repeat for Kings Head, where Mrs Cantrill is mentioned.  Can't see anything for the Nags Head.
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Thursday 04 June 15 18:28 BST (UK)
Hi Both

Sorry I'm just getting back to your two fascinating replies.  There've been a few diversions here!

Getting back to you individually.

Best wihes

Emms  :)
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Thursday 04 June 15 18:33 BST (UK)
Gary

This sounds a fascinating venture!

Yes, Gurney had his library auctioned when he returned home to raise funds.  Not sure where you're up to with your research or what you need but I'll send you a pm

best wishes

Emms  :)
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Thursday 04 June 15 18:38 BST (UK)
Small Town Girl,

Thank you.

I really enjoyed looking at those photo's and had a good look around the  site including another photo of the Royal.  I'll be looking at the site again too.

Thank you again.

Best wishes

Emms   :)

Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: SmallTownGirl on Thursday 04 June 15 18:38 BST (UK)
Gary

.... but I'll send you a pm


I don't think he'll be able to reply - well, not until he's made three posts anyway.

Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Friday 05 June 15 16:56 BST (UK)
Hi

Don't worry.

Just the usual rules.

Gary if you reply to anything I've put on here, pm's will soon work.  We'll sort it out.Best wishes

Emms  :)
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: GaryBrianKent on Saturday 06 June 15 04:49 BST (UK)
Hi Emms

I have found out quite a lot about Gurney. I have tagged many newspaper articles referring him in Trove's Australian newspapers on line under Gurney Eugene Patmore.  I found several letters written by him about his circumstances in the archives of the Royal Literary Fund, which you have probably already seen.  I have also found brief references to him in books about and containing correspondence by the pre-Raphaelites.  I would love dates and places of his birth and that of his children and wife, although I have newspaper references for most of these, just want to make sure it is complete. Have also looked at the standard books on his brother Coventry. I have a copy of the catalogue of his book sale. Anything with particular reference to his book collecting would be of interest and his time at the Melbourne Age, as well as his meetings with writers eg Edward Lear. Let me know if I can help you any way.

It is freezing here in Canberra, minus seven celsius earlier this week, but not so bad today.

Regards

Gary
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Saturday 06 June 15 17:57 BST (UK)
Hi Gary

Great to hear back from you.

You sound to have done a lot.

Yes, we were told he was Eugene Gurney at birth though he seemed to keep to Gurney later. I've quite a lot on family dates which I'll let you have .  I need to get it together though.  Not much on the library except the list you have.  Basically the only way the boys had tpo make money was writing and books so he had a good collection and also some good contacts to obtain them helped by his brother Coventry.  Of course books were valuable then and whenther fami8ly went home he was ill, so they would need the money.  They did return home with five healthy children thoough and had another daughter on return.

I'll look out my styuff and get back later.

I'm not at my own computer at the moment.

Best wishes

Emms :)
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: asterix57 on Friday 12 February 16 09:50 GMT (UK)
Hi, I've just picked up this thread after typing in Henry Cantrill.

First, I am delighted to see Gary's post which confirms a hunch I have long had that Coventry Patmore might be Gurney's brother (they both just seemed unusual first names which sort of went together).

Emms, you mention in your earlier post the double wedding of Sarah and her sister Caroline. I didn't know they were married on the same day in, I think, 1859. Caroline's husband was indeed Thomas Cox, a wine merchant of Derby. They lived at 93 Friar Gate, which is still there, and looks large enough for their family of 11 (surviving) children. Their daughter Mary Louisa was my greatgrandmother, and I am also in touch with several descendants of her sister Frances ("Fanny") in places as diverse as Cape Town, Montreal and Detroit. I can fill you in a bit with the Cantrills - but not very far, as I can't get back beyond Henry's baptism in Derby in 1807. If you are interested in the ancestors of Sarah and Caroline, however, that is a whole different story...

best wishes

Charles
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Friday 12 February 16 10:44 GMT (UK)
Hi Charles
Great to hear from you and to have a Cantrill reply after all this time!

Yes, Coventry was my gg grandfather Gurney's brother.  I've known this from a very small child staying with my grandma and aunts.  My Mum and aunt and grandma knew their father / grandfather  Gurney's son born in Australia until he was quite elderly.  There was so much info about Coventry but little about Gurney.  He was "Coventry's brother " so I wanted to turn it the other way round!

I think I may have!

I'd love to hear any more about the Cantrill side if you have time.  I don't know if I can help ypou out any, but you're more than welcome if I can.  I do have both the marriage certificates for that wedding and quite a few newspaper entries from the Derby Mercury of which Gurney was editor before going to Australia.

I'll look back later when I have more time.
Thank you for getting in touch.

Best wishes

Emms :)
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: asterix57 on Friday 12 February 16 11:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Emms,

Thanks for your prompt reply.

The problem with the Cantrillls is that although I know Henry's parents were called Henry and Mary, the only marriage I can find which might fit took place in Manchester - and the family in question seems to have stayed in Manchester, i.e. rather than moved to Derby. So no progress there.

However, as for Henry's wife Elizabeth Sale (1805-1893): I don't know if you know much about the Sales, but if you don't, how much time do you have, and how far back would you like to go?!

I'm not quite sure where to begin: it might almost be easier to Skype, if you're on Skype?

Where are you in Australia?

Charles

As
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Sunday 14 February 16 00:24 GMT (UK)
Hi Charles

Thank you for the reply.  I'd love to hear about the Sales or any of them!  Unfortunately I'm not on Skype and I'm not in  Australia either.  I'm in the UK.  I cam send you a direct email address via personal message for attachments.

I found the marriage certificate for Caroline Cantrill but not Gurney and Sarah's yet. though I have it.  I think I had a marriage for Henry her father in a local town, possibly Matlock, possibly referred to also in a census.  I'll see what I come across.

I found a lot of marriage entries from newspapers too.

Where are you? Aare you in Australia?  Gurney and Sarah came back after nine years.  My ggrandfather and all except one of his siblings having been born over there.  He died in Salford, Lancashire, and we think there were probably earlier links to the Manchester area, though I'm pretty sure the marriage I found was Derbyshire but not Derby.

Thank you for telling me about the house.  I've never been to Derby and I'm tring to pit together pictures and information.

I'll have another look.

Best wishes

Emms


Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: asterix57 on Sunday 14 February 16 12:34 GMT (UK)
Hi Emms,

I see, I got the wrong end of the stick. I live in England, but am currently working abroad. However, if (in order to preserve privacy) you text me your e-mail address on 07710 376555 I can send you a summary of the Sale family tree, going back to Rev Richard Sale (1545-1625). The line goes back a lot further than that, but it gets a bit vague in the Middle Ages, i.e. isn't exactly unbroken. However, some of the families the Sales married into go back a lot further.

best regards

Charles
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: asterix57 on Sunday 14 February 16 13:15 GMT (UK)
Just an afterthought on the Cantrills. You mention the Manchester connection, and perhaps the following is relevant?

The only likely marriage I came across for Henry Cantrill's parents took place between Henry Cantrill and Mary Rainey in Manchester Dec 16 1805, which was not long before his birth in 1807 - albeit in Derby. However, I then found that that couple had several children born in Manchester (I don't have the names or dates here), which rather put me off the scent. However, I suppose it is conceivable that they were living in Derby at the time of Henry's birth, but then moved back to Manchester?
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Sunday 14 February 16 20:54 GMT (UK)
Hi Charles

Thank you. 

I got confused too.  I checked off the marriage on familysearch and I was in the wrong generation and town.  It was Henry Cantrill and Elizabeth Sale's marriage in Ticnell I was thinking if,  (6 Nov 1830).  I did think I had a possible though for the Henry before,  I'll have a look.

I'd love any information on the Sales.  I actually sent you an email address on a personal message.  I think the mods will probably remove your number for security reasons.  If you send things like that in a pm it doesn't appear publicly.

Just going to read your bit about Manchester again and see what I can find.

Best wishes

Margaret  :)
Title: Re: Derby Cantrills
Post by: emmsthheight on Monday 16 October 17 07:18 BST (UK)
Hi
Just trying to have another go at these.

There's a death in Derby in the Monthly magazine for a Mrs Cantrill of the Nags Head in Derby. This is just the reporting date. She was aged 40

Do we know if this was Mary, Henrys wife. Henry jnr would only be tiny with possibly older brohers or sisters or could he have come with a second wife with a different surname?

Alternatively if his mother died, should there be a marriage well before he was born?

Also, is there a second marriage for Henry snr after Henry jnr's birth?

Sorry don't have all my notes with me even less than before so hope I'm not repeating myself

Best wishes

Emms