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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: samlouise01 on Wednesday 06 May 15 02:23 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I wonder if anyone could help me, I have managed to find a census record for my Grt Grt Grandfather Charles Allum with the above birthdate, stating that he was a marine store dealer, born in Norwich. (living in Brighton at the time of the 1911 census) His wife's name is Elizabeth. I have read on here various threads that say allum is a traveller name, i am wondering if there is a connection as i am finding it very hard to find a record of his birth!
please if anyone has any ideas let me know thank you :)
Sam
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Have you found his marriage to Elizabeth? Her maiden name can be found from the birth cert of your great grandfather/mother.
That will give his fathers name, hopefully, and anoccupation for his father, hopefully. Or maybe fathers namewill be blank indicating illegitimacy. Either way it will give you more info.
Also have you worked back through the censuses to see oif you can find him in. 1901/1891/1881?
Both of these ideas will help you work back from the 1911 that you have, to his birth, one step at a time. And may reveal why his birth is hard to find, aswell as give you more info about his family and whether they were travellers or not.
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Can't seem to find them in 1901 :-\
There's a marriage 1900 Brighton with a Charles Allum Elizabeth Allen possible bride but that's too late for the children listed.
There's a Charles Allum born Hoxne district - could that be a vague area for Norwich?
Jun 1876
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I can't see them in 1901 either. The younger children seem to be registered as Allum, but I can't see births registered for the older children or father Charles
I keep coming back to this family in 1891 living in Fullers Hole, Norwich. Apart from Charles the other majority of the children were born in Norwich, Norfolk. By 1901 the family - minus Charles - were lodging in Suffolk with one young child listed as born in Hastings, Sussex. I can't see a birth reg for this Charles, but there is a tree online with a birth cert for sibling Frederick born 19 Oct 1881 in Knodishall, Suffolk which lists his father Charles as a Marine Store Dealer
Charles Allum 43 Hawker b Ipswich, Suffolk,
Sophia Allum 33 Hawker b Suffolk
Charles Allum 17 Hawker b Cambridge
William Allum 11
Frederick Allum 9 Suffolk
Alfred Allum 4
Arthur Allum 6 months
G12 Piece 1518 Folio 71 Page 13
Kay
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Sam,
A warm welcome to Rootschat.
Do you have access to Find My Past? Checking newspaper records there are several mentions of "Allum" and the marine store trade. One mentions a "Charles Allum, travelling marine store dealer". He's not the Charles in your 1911 Census, born 1875 but links to the "traveller name" thread.
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Hi everyone!
oh gosh! thanks for all the replies! wasn't expecting that. I am at work at the moment, but will check this all out when i get home, i didn't want to leave you all hanging though. Its funny because my Father was always told that his grt grandfather was Irish born and bred... Cork infact was the story, so i was a bit shocked to see his birth listed as Norwich. Allum from what i can tell, is a romany gypsy name and as far as my traveller knowledge goes, they are not the same people... Confusing!
Lizdb- i haven't got the cert yet. I only found the census record yesterday but will order this asap! thanks for the heads up :-)
Hi Kay99 many thanks for the info. So maybe this ties in with the whole "born in Ireland" thing? or maybe Charles was a second name? I will have to look when i get home (bloody work! grrr)
Hanes teleu- I do have access to find my past. its the only one i do actually! Thank you for that i will check this out too. On a slightly different subject. i am fairly new to this as you may of guessed and so i don't really know which is the best websites? what would you recommend as a site with the most/best records?
exciting stuff!
thanks again everyone Sam :-)
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As you have access to FindMyPast - I think the baptism of the Charles Allum I posted in 1891 is on the site - 1873 at Bury St Edmunds Suffolk parents Charles and Sophia (Charles listed as a Hawker)
Good Luck Kay
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Hi as you can see my name is DAVEY allum and am one of Frederick allum (son of Charles)grandsons the family are Romany gypsies and were "hawkers" by trade would be great to know more about my grandfathers family and precious history
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Hi Davy!, my grandmother was Irene Allum, her father was William or Bill as everyone called him. He actually outlived my grandmother and survived into his 90's. He was in the 8th army under monty as far as the family knows. I have a few photos if you would like go send me an inbox message with your email I can send them over.
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If the 1891 census Norwich Norfolk found by Kay99 is your family, they had 3 children baptized at St James Pockthorpe Norwich.
Parents Charles Allum and Sophia
Alfred bap 21 July 1887, born 8 June 1887, address Black Boys Yard, father Hawker
Frederick bap 21 July 1887 born28 October 1882, same address, same occupation
Arthur Bap 8 October 1889 born 9 September 1889, address 2 Phoenix Yard, father umbrella mender
If Charles was born Cambridge per census although he grew up in Norwich and thought he was born there, Ref: a registration for a Charles Allum 1873 in New Market on Freebmd.
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BAPTISM;
St Nicholas, East Dereham, Norfolk
MARY ANNE Allum, 1 April 1877, Parents Charles/Sophia, Father a Hawker
(Source FreeREG)
MARRIAGE;
12 February 1872, St Nicholas, East Dereham, Norfolk
Charles ALLUM, Bachelor, Labourer, Father JOHN Allum, Labourer
Sophia LINES, Spinster, no Father noted
Witnesses, William Lines/Bridget Lines
The groom signed and the bride made a mark. The witnesses made their marks
(FreeREG)
1901 Charles/Sophia are visiting in Woolpit, Suffolk;
John Howell, 30, Inn Keeper
Millicent Howell, 28
Thomas Hill, 35
Polly Hill, 27
Anna Hill, 3
Lizzie Hill, 1
Clement Goodrich, 45
Edgar Stearne, 50
Charles AlLLUM,50, Visitor, Mar, Hawker, born Ipswich, Suffolk****
Sophia Allum, 25, Visitor, Mar, Hawker, born Woodbridge, Suffolk****
Annie Allum, 6, Visitor, born Hastings, Sussex***
William Law, 45
Rebecca Law, 30
RG13/1760/137/14
Sophias age is hard to make out as there is a line through it but has been transcribed as 25
1851 Census
Ipswich, Suffolk
HO107/1799/25/17
John Allum, 24, Head, Mar, Marine Store Dealer, born Greenwich, Kent
Elizabeth Allum, 21, Wife, Mar, born Stow, Staffordshire
Samuel Allum, 5, Son, born Colchester, Essex
CHARLES Allum, 2, Son, born Ipswich***
William Allum, 4 Mths, Son, born Ipswich
1861 Elizabeth is in Colchester, Essex with the Children;
James Sibborn, 72
Elizabeth Allen, 33, Mar, Hawker, born Stone, Staffordshire
Samuel Allen, 15
CJARLES Allen, 12
William Allen, 10
Francis Allen, 8
John Allen, 5
Mary A Allen, 2
1871 back with John in Ore, Sussex;
John Allum, 44, Head, Mar, Labourer*
Elizabeth Allum, 42, Wife, Mar, Hawker of Flowers, born Stone, Staffordshire
John Allum, 17
Mary A Allum, 14
Albert Allum, 10
Anne Allum, 7
Elizabeth Allum, 5
1881 she is Widowed and still in Ore;
Elizabeth Allum, 51
Sarah Ann Allum, 19
Elizabeth Allum, 17
Betsy Allum, 12
Mary Ann Allum, 4
Trish :)
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1861 Census
Pound Lane,
Woodbridge, Suffolk
RG9/1170/44/12
Mary Ann LINES, 31, Head, Unm. Mat Maker
William Lines, 9
Lydia Lines, 7
SOPHIA Lines, 5****
All born Woodbridge
Cant find them in 1861 but there is a Death Reg for a Mary Ann Lines Reg Woodbridge 1862
So from Marriage 1872 Sophia doesnt name a Father.
Charles Allums Father is John, occp. Labourer, which fits with 1871 Census
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Possible Marriage Reg;
Dec 1844 Colchester, 12 135
John ALLUM, possible Spouses Elizabeth YOUNG or Elizabeth WRIGHT
F/S has a Elizabeth YOUNG Christened 27 January 1828, Stone, Stafford, England
Parents PETER/ANN
Looks good as in 1841 In St James, Colchesyer Borough, Essex we have;
Ann YOUNG, 45, Lodging Housekeeper
ELIZABETH Young, 14
+ several Lodgers
Both Ann/Elizabeth are NOT born in the County
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Charles and Sophie's daughter Mary Ann Allum was buried at Redenhall Church on 14th February 1878 aged 11 months. her abode was given as Harleston Common - almost certainly the 'lodging house for tramps' formed in the barns and stables of an old mill and operating there between the 1860s and mid 1890s.
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Excerpt from a book I am writing about Halreston Common ps - have not looked into it but I think safe to assume thereis some link between this branch of Allums and the strdabroke allums who wind up down in Hastings too!
No pub existed on the actual Common but there was a lodging house between at least 1861 and 1891,which was used by the ‘lower class’ of passing trade. It is possible that a few of the ‘random’ registrations of ‘Harleston Common’ were from families passing through the lodging house. For instance the death of 11 month old Mary Ann Allum on Valentine’s Day 1878 does not tie in with any local families I am aware of, instead I would suggest she is the Mary Ann baptised at St Nicholas in East Dereham on 1st April 1877, to parents Charles and Sophia Allum, father a hawker. These itinerate people tend to be difficult to track down; one likely candidate is Charles Allum, from Rutland, who first appears in 1861 with his wife Caroline at an Inn in Bethel St Norwich. By 1871, the still childless Caroline gives her trade as a milliner from Suffolk. A Charles Allum marries Sophia Lines in 1872 - if they are one and the same I wonder what happened to Caroline?
Alternatively, Charles and Sophie Allum, may be the pair who appear amongst a total of 12 lodgers, as tinkers at a lodging house in Watton in 1881. This record seems a little arbitrary - husband and wife have both been given the age of 30, their place of birth is not known, four other residents don’t even have their names known - I suspect when the census taker appeared the lodging housekeeper had to rely on her memory and guesswork! With them they have a 2 year old and a 12 year old son - presumably the children in between met the same fate as Mary Ann three years previously - life on the road would be tough for the children.
By 1891, things are more settled. Charles Allum I, 10 years older than his 33 year old wife Sophie, is living with his family at Fullers Hole Norwich. While the parents claim Ipswich birth, Charles II is 17 (not 22 as you might expect) but William’s age of 11 ties in with that given in ’81. Both the Charles I & II and Sophia are hawkers, the children being born in Cambridgeshire, Norwich, Suffolk and two more in Norwich. Amazingly the family of seven, including a 6 month old baby are squeezed into two rooms, even more extraordinary, a couple of doors away the 10 strong Brown family are also in a 2 room dwelling!
In 1901, the couple are back on the road, appearing at The Crown in Woolpit, this time with just their 6 year old daughter Annie, born in Hastings, in tow. By 1911, Annie is back in Hastings, with her aunt, Annie Gannon, hawking flowers. Annie Gannon claims birth in Woodford Essex - may have been a confusion with ‘Woodbridge’ claimed by Sophia? Just to add to the joy, William, the toddler who appeared in the ’81 census at Watton but now a rag and bone man, was the only prisoner languishing in the police cells in the Hastings Town Hall in 1911! Meanwhile his father, Charles Allum I, now widowed, was one of 15 lodgers at a Common lodging house in the town - whilst the proprietors were British born, their names ‘Orsi’ and ‘Bassi’would indicate Italian origins.
Charles II, a marine store dealer (glorified junk/scrap merchant) is also living in Hastings. He has been busy, with his wife Elizabeth, they have produced 7 children, all alive for this census, their four room house might seem cramped to us but compared with the conditions that 17 year old Charles and his family were enduring in ’81, luxury! His son Alfred, aged 4 in this 1911 census turns out to be a bit of a pickle in his youth. Alfred and a partner in crime (lads) were charged with stealing eight men’s Oxford shirts. The boys had been to prison and it was decided that Allum was ‘fit for Borstal treatment’ whilst the other lad might do better if ‘put on probation under the Police Court Missionary’. The difference in proposed treatment was due to Allum having several previous convictions against him (he was only 12) whilst the other lad had no record. ‘Allum was committed to the Quarter Sessions, with a view to being put under the Borstal system’ whilst the other lad was given two years probation - oops!
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Going back two generations -
Charles Allum, father of your Charles Allum b 1875, aged 2, son of John and Elizabeth Allum appearing in Stoke St, Ipswich in 1851. John is a marine store dealer - the sort of back ground a tinker/hawker might well come from. Brothers William and Samuel also appear. By 1861, the family are in Magdalen St Colchester, father John is away, mother Elizabeth is a hawker, oldest son Samuel is a hawker, other siblings Charles, William, Frances, John and Mary are all scholars.
Hope that helps
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Hi sam
I have a few questions I think we’re looking for the same person if you could give me a call that would be lovely my name is Amy my number is (*) if you could call me that would be amazing many thanks
(*) Moderator Comment: phone number removed in accordance with RootsChat policy.