RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Montgomeryshire => Topic started by: StevieSteve on Thursday 14 May 15 13:31 BST (UK)
-
I have potentially 2 William & Elizabeth Breeze's having children at the same time and being baptised at Llanbrynmair Congregational Chapel.
Two of the baptisms have what I assume is their residence as Myrdynnllwyd while the others have Escairgarry, which I wonder might be Esgairgeiliog. The order goes M, E, M, E,E,E...The E's only start after the second William & Elizabeth marry. There's a 6 year gap between the 2 Ms and 6 years between the first 2 Es
I haven't found Myrdynnllwyd on Google. Would anyone be able to place it, and also assess whether it could be used as an alternative for Esgairgarry, or would it definitely be 2 separate places?
Thanks for any help!
-
familysearch have it as Mynyddyslwyn, otherwise known as the baptist church -Abercarn, I guess you have seen the marriage on family search
Mike
-
Hi
Actually, I've got the image on Find my Past and I'd back my transcription a bit more than Family Search's version
I'll see if I can paste it...
-
Well, that was easier said than done, but hopefully, here it is
-
Actually, re-reading your message, we're probably talking about different records
-
Well I see that as Mynyddyslwyn, It seems that there is a place of that name but in S Wales, now in Gwent.
So the marriage of William Breese to Elizabeth in Gwent is looking to be another family, not yours.
Note the spelling of Breese with an s.
Mike
-
Ok, different pair of eyes and all that :)
But this is taken from the register of the Llanbrynmair Congregational Chapel in Montgomeryshire. It would seem a long way to go to get a child baptized
-
And I should say that I have seen two William Brees / Elizabeth marriages in Llanbrynmair. (The name adapts to Breeze later)
-
Ok, different pair of eyes and all that :)
But this is taken from the register of the Llanbrynmair Congregational Chapel in Montgomeryshire. It would seem a long way to go to get a child baptized
Yes it is a long way, I could understand the firstborn, if they had gone to S Wales to seek work then going home to mum to have your first child was not unusual, but later ones, no.
I have searched old maps on the nat. Library. Scotland site and could find nothing faintly possible in Montgomeryshire.
Mike
-
Thanks very much for looking, Mike, I appreciate it.
I'll have to look into whether I can find some connection with South Wales (although my relation is one of the Escairgarry lot so will be happy to eliminate the other two)
-
What time period are we looking at, the Elizabeth Llywarch who married William Breese was born
1763 so any births after 1810 or so are not going to be to this couple.
-
The timeline goes
1786 William Breese m Elizabeth Llywarch
1788 bp Elizabeth, My..etc
1792 William Brees of Carno m Elizabeth Edward
1793 bp William, Es...etc
1797 bp John, M
1799 bp Evan, E
1801 bp Samuel, E
1803 bp Abraham, E
1805 bp Richard & Ann, twins, E
1807 bp Hanna, E
Then there are other William / Elizabeth baptisms at
1809 Mary, Comeddon (sp)
1810 Elinor, Carno
1811 Margaret, Meiffod
Abraham is the one I'm interested in and in the 1851 census is down as born in Carno
-
I read that as Myrddynllwyd - the baptism entry for John b1797 has it as Myrthynllwd (grey merlin).
-
Thanks Galium
Unfortunately searching for Myrthynllwd on Google gets me
Your search - Myrthynllwd - did not match any documents.
Did you mean: Martin Lewis
;D
-
Google is not very good on the Welsh language :), another eye is great, especially as the South Wales connection is later than the period we are looking at.
The William from carno has a Samuel and Richard in his family, but it is too easy to make assumptions. I don't have access to all the census but what is Elizabeth the mothers age in 1851.
Mike
-
I haven't really got started on the censuses yet but in 1841 in Montgomeryshire there's
Carneddau Elizabeth, 70 poss mother of William, 35 also with Elizabeth 45
Fynon Arthur: William Elizabeth, both 65 poss parents of William 30, Ann 20
Llanellygan Elizabeth 60 with John 20
Trefolwen: John & Elizabeth both 55
1851 to follow
-
In 1851, I think there's only
William 80 farmer Llanenfyl
Elizabeth 75 b Llanchoidr, "Demby"
with
Evan Williams Son in Law
Elizabeth Williams 31 Llanfhangel
-
On this 1760 mapo there's a place called Martha??? between Aberangell & Llanvoring
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fb0/
Can't find an equivalent on Google tho'
-
Probably Mathavern / Mathafarn
I'm no expert on Welsh pronunciation but I'm guessing that's not what we want
-
Hi StevieSteve
there is a really interesting project online at the moment which is transcribing tithe maps of Wales. I have had lots of success finding houses for my family in the Brecon area.
I can see a property called Escirgelynen - field numbers 246 to 262.
look for the words SheepWalks on the map (the longest and thinnest of the few there - if that makes sense) and scroll West
http://cynefin.archiveswales.org.uk/en/tithe-maps/transcribe/#Llanbryn-Mair&/transcribe/169121591382/&/georeference/144077871753/&/visualize/144077871753&&/map/850918147492/
I know the time frame is later, but for info I could see a Stephen Breese living at Clegyrddwr, Richard Breese at Coedperfyde, Elinor Breese at Ystradfach - there may be more, but there are over 70 pages of info to look through. When the project is finished, the pages will be searchable.
hope this helps you
Mar
-
I can see on a modern map the name Esgair Guelan about 4 miles south of llanbrynmair, I think this is possible for your Escairgarry, it's a lot closer to llanbrynmair than Escairgeiliog
Mike
-
Thanks very very much to you both
I'm not at my fighting-fit best at the moment and haven't yet worked out how to use that tithe map link.I'll have a better go at the weekend
Nor have I spotted Esgair Guelen, but I'n sure that's down to me. Again, another job for Sunday, when I'm sure I'll be in tip-top shape. It would certainly seem to be in a better location as I've been growing more & more concerned that Escairgeiliog is the opposite side of Llanbrynmair to Carno
Thanks once again
Steve
-
Hi StevieSteve, if I am reading this correctly, there is a reference to Myrddyn Llwyd as a home from which you can walk to Llanbrynmair on one of the Genuki pages (see link below)
Also, a reference to another Breese !
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MGY/Hanes6.html
Scroll down to page 315 and the article reads:
Sixty years ago and earller, many were members in Llanbrynmair and travelled the wet and muddy paths to worship, as well as Mr John Roberts coming to preach to them occasionally. Preaching began at Cwmderwen and Thomas Edwards, Cwmderwen, and his wife, Hugh Sychnant, and his wife and Susan from Myrddyn Llwyd, were the first to become members at Llanbrynmair. They went all the way to the socials weekly, and before going their separate ways at Dolgarregwen they would kneel and pray together. It was at Dolgarregwen that Mr John Breese, later of Liverpool, gave his first sermon. At the time he was a servant in Cwmcarneddand working in Prisgwyngyll. There are still some who remember him preaching that night in his smock and clogs.
Mar
-
Ooh that was well found, Mar.
Mike
-
Yes, good one Mar :) .
I think the other place name is Esgairgarreg - which doesn't help much with finding it at the moment, but makes more sense as Welsh (Esgair - ridge. Garreg - rock).
-
I think we may be getting closer.. :)
http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewpage/llgc-id:1085539/llgc-id:1085597/llgc-id:1085632/getText
clicked on the pdf and it reads within it "William Brees, Esgairgarreg"
Mar
-
What fascinating links from everyone, thank you
So to summarise there appears to be a place contemporaneously called Escairgarreg inhabited by William & Elizabeth Brees / Breese / Breeze. Do you know what that list was about?
Mar, I wonder whether you are extrapolating too far that Myrddyn Llwyd is in walking distance. On today's Google Map there is a place called Cwm Derwen in Caerphilly. and only 5 miles from Abercarn. Mind you, making that journey every week really would be impressive.
I wonder where Dolgarregwen is? It's in this file
http://europeana-journals.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewpage/llgc-id:2653385/llgc-id:2654591/llgc-id:2654617/getText
but I didn't get a nice pdf link :(
I'm thinking that if it's possible to get Myrddyn Llwyd located down South, then we're looking at two separate families
And those maps were indeed fabulous!
Thanks again to everyone.
-
Apologies if I have misunderstood, but I wonder whether you might be assuming that the place names refer to villages?
It is most likely that they are the names of farms and houses scattered around the area - which going by the extract on Genuki is the parish of Llanerfyl.
Eg Zoopla has details for a property named Cwm Derwen in Llanerfyl.
-
If I have interpreted it correctly,the article related to Beulah Chapel,Llanerfyl with named people possibly travelling to Llanbrynmair(?).Certainly a number of the places referred to are relatively close together towards the bottom right corner of this map-Cwm derwen,Sychnant(as in Hugh Sychnant),Dol y gareg wen,with Beulah Chapel,I think,just off the current map(but can be found just using Llanerfyl as the search term).Still looking for the specific named properties but the area is full of "Esgair" containing names.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102186980
Regards
Roger
-
You mention that Abraham Brees names his birthplace as Carno.
If you search the 1841 census for David Watkin at Carno, you will see that his address is Esgairgarreg. This is in the township of Derlwyn, parish of Carno.
-
Hi again
Good point, Galium, about settlements. I think I have somtimes mixed up M & C as villages, at least in my last post. I'll have a look at that census. My boy had got married in Guilsfield in 1829 and then farmed at Llanerchydol round Welshpool way
-
Thanks, Roger
Another great map!
-
Sparse Enumerator's route on that census, unfortunately
Parish of Carno
District of Derlwyn
Township
-
I think I have found a place that may be Myrddyn Llwyd on a map to the east of a place called Sychnant.
The place is named Merddyn Llwyd - I think - but the map is a bit grey, so will need others eyes to see if it is correct. If so this would fit with (from the chapel article) Hugh from Suchnant and Susan from Merddyn Llwyd travelling from Llanbrynmair, as it certainly seems a possible journey?
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/maps/series?xCenter=3123351.48335&yCenter=2950470.01145&scale=63360&viewScale=181417.4208&mapLayer=nineteenth&subLayer=first_edition&title=Ordnance%20Survey%20and%20Ordnance%20Survey%20of%20Scotland%20First%20Series&download=true
To find it:
Centre on Llanbrynmair; scroll northeast past Escair Garnedd and you will see the name of the river Nant yr Eira running in words up the page side on; at the 'n' in nant -scroll slightly right to Sychnant and then slightly right again to what I think is Merddyn Llwyd/Myrddyn Llwyd
Mar
-
It certainly looks a good find to me
It also fits that there's a place call Cwm-derwen the other side of the river north of Dol-wagareen (sp) on the river.
I have so many map windows open I'm going mad!
-
From the census found by Galium there's an entry 4 away from Escairgarreg which looks like Aberdinant and may be due west of Carno
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fbk/
There's also Bryneithin 5 entries away which could be Bryneithinog
-
Going back to the tithe maps but at Carno rather than Llanbrynmair, I've found some entries for those mentioned in the 1841 census.
Rhosfach 1299
Bryneithin 58 - 62
More to follow hopefully, but that site is rather resource-hungry I think
-
Hi StevieSteve
It looks like you have them pinned down now - aren't the tithe maps a gem !
Mar
-
Hi Mar, yes they are indeed :)
Unfotunately, I've had to stop for the day and am away for a few days from tomorrow so they'll stay unpinned just a little longer.
Thanks for all your help with this
Steve
-
Myrddyn Llwyd is in the parish of Llanerfyl township of Cefn Llys Ucha. It was normal for early nonconformists to walk to services at Hen Gapel Llanbrynmair
-
Thanks muchly, cennydd.
If you'd been around on Thursday, I'd have missed out on a lot of interesting map-trawling :)
Is the source for that online?
-
Myrddyn Llwyd doesn't seem to be named on any of the historic maps except for that found by MarMnkly. However there is a building in that location on the maps, including the current Ordnance Survey on Bing Maps - zoom in to the largest scale.
Small extract attached, to help identify it.
See also -
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/index.cfm#zoom=12&lat=52.6480&lon=-3.5225&layers=6&point=-3.4954,52.6199 (Top left-hand corner on each of the four results)
http://maps.nls.uk/view/91576781 (Between Sychnant and Bryn y Lloi)
David
-
Thanks David. I only have access by phone right now but I'll have a look when I get home tomorrow.
Everyone's efforts have convinced me that the Brees's at Myrdyr Llywd are separate from the ones at Escairgareg who are my ancestors. I hope I have as much success pinpointing that place as you've had with the other
Thanks again
Steve
-
I can find the property in the censuses up to 1881,generally listed(sometimes just as Merddyn) next to Castell and Rhyd Du(sometime occupied by Evan and Eleanor Brees).It also seems close to Pen Ffridd Newydd and Bryn Mawr.The maps available tend to be 1886 onward.I can find all the proerties mentioned except for Myrddyn Llwyd.
Regards
Roger
-
Roger, thank you
I'm sorry, but I'm running out of ways to stress that I'm now interested in Esgairgareg which I believe to be a little west of Carno