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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: jettejjane on Wednesday 20 May 15 16:12 BST (UK)
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I am seeking further information on George Webb.
Here is what I know.
Born 1868 possibly in Arundel maybe Kent. Mother Mary Redman father John Webb they married 1866 London. John died 1870. George was on 1871 census with grandparents William and Caroline Redman in Arundel, although it says born Birmingham that is incorrect and led me up many wrong roads!
On 1881 census with mother at the home of Henry Thorpe Speldhurst, Kent.
Mother Mary re-married is back in Arundel 1891 no George. I have it in my head that he died perhaps something was mentioned somewhere. But he could have married or moved to the Moon. I no longer have ancestry subs :'(
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George was on 1871 census with grandparents William and Caroline Redman in Arundel, although it says born Birmingham that is incorrect and led me up many wrong roads!
I can only see one George Webb in Arundel in 1871. He is living with his grandparents William and Mary Leavy, not with William and Caroline Redman. He is aged 3, birthplace is Birmingham.
Where did you find him living with the Redmans?
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Hi Jane
I agree with Jen, the George Webb in Arundel is living with his grandparents William and Mary Leavy. William is a tailor born Derbyshire and Mary born Slindon Sussex.
RG10; Piece: 1110; Folio: 68; Page: 22
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George was on 1871 census with grandparents William and Caroline Redman in Arundel,
I'm afraid I'm struggling to find a William and Caroline Redman in Arundel in 1871. Can you give us the full census reference for the entry you've got please, so we can look at it?
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Is this the connection from 1881?
RG11; Piece: 1121; Folio: 64; Page: 27
William Leavy 72 widower Derbyshire
William C. Readman 36 stepson Cordwainer Arundel
Caroline Readman 31 wife Cordwainer's wife Petworth
Katherine M. Readman 5 daughter Arundel
Eliza Tickner 58 mother Kirdford
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Lets start with the 1881, then.
Here is the full entry:
Speldhurst Kent
Henry Thorpe 46 widower Whitesmith bn Kent
Frederick 21
Arthur 19
Walter 15
Louisa 5
Mary Ann Webb 40 widow visitor bn Arundel Sussex
George Webb 14 visitor bn Arundel Sussex
PS good find, groom.
William and Caroline Readman aren't old enough to be his grandparents, are they.
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From an earlier thread on the Redman family.
Great Grandfather William Charles Redman lived in Arundel all his life.
1845 born in Arundel son of George and Mary
1851 and 1861 census Arundel
1879 married in Caroline Tickner from Petworth, Sussex
1881, 1891, 1901, 1911 census Arundel. Caroline died 1917. At some time after Caroline's death lived with son Archibald Charles in Arundel.
1930 died at home of daughter in Fontwell, Sussex.
I can not find him on any 1871 census.
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George was on 1871 census with grandparents William and Caroline Redman in Arundel,
I'm afraid I'm struggling to find a William and Caroline Redman in Arundel in 1871. Can you give us the full census reference for the entry you've got please, so we can look at it?
In your posting on your Redman thread you say you haven't found William in 1871 :-\
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Heres Mary Ann Webb in 1871
25 Lansdowne Rd Tonbridge Kent
H/H of Jane Hussey
Mary A Webb 30 widow housemaid bn Arundel
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William and Caroline Readman aren't old enough to be his grandparents, are they.
Could they be his uncle and aunt?
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William Leavy married Mary Redman 1860 Westhampnett 2b 385. So George Webb in 1871 was his step grandson.
This is probably George's birh
Births Mar 1868
Webb George Westhampnett 2b 349
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Sorry, sorry, sorry. Didn't put brain on Gear. Yes living with grandmother Mary and second husband William Leavy. Apologies ::)
William and Caroline are uncle and Aunt. Silly me.
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So to summarize so far (for my own benefit only)
In 1871 George is with his maternal grandmother Mary Leavy nee Redman and step-grandfather William Leavy, who for some reason thinks George was born in Birmingham.
William Redman isn't his grandfather and is yet to be found in 1871?
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So to summarize so far (for my own benefit only)
In 1871 George is with his maternal grandmother Mary Leavy nee Redman and step-grandfather William Leavy, who for some reason thinks George was born in Birmingham.
William Redman isn't his grandfather and is yet to be found in 1871?
Yes Jen correct. Birmingham is what threw me probably a mis transcription.
No still not found William in 1871.
Jane :D
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In 1871 George is with his maternal grandmother Mary Leavy nee Redman
Redman was her married name wasn't it?
So are we looking for the William born 1845 who married Caroline?
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So are we looking for the William born 1845 who married Caroline?
Or are we looking for what happened to George Webb post 1881 census?
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So are we looking for the William born 1845 who married Caroline?
Or are we looking for what happened to George Webb post 1881 census?
No deaths in Sussex between 1881 and 1891.
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As he has a middle initial of E on one of the censuses, and as Mum is in Tonbridge area, then I reckon this death might be him :
Apr/May/Jun 1885
Tonbridge
Ref 2a 420
George Edward Webb
age 17
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Given the birthplace of Birmingham stated in the 1871 census, what do you think about this:
Baptism, 19 January 1868, All Saints, Birmingham. George Edward Webb, father John Webb, mother Mary Ann Webb. Father's occupation labourer.
A bit coincidental don't you think?
George was on 1871 census with grandparents William and Caroline Redman in Arundel, although it says born Birmingham that is incorrect and led me up many wrong roads!
What evidence do you have that the birthplace on the 1871 census is incorrect?
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Oh dear. I think I have really confused you all. Sorry. No we not looking for William all avenues exhausted regarding 1871 census. Forget him!!!
It is George Webb I am after. Yes after 1881 census.
Yes Liz that death you found sounds promising. I would go as far as to say correct!! Would cert give me the answer. If it's yes that's another road closed but at least I will be able to move on.
Thanks to you all for being so patient with me
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Jane, please take a look at my reply #18
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Jane, please take a look at my reply #18
Just seen it Jen, sorry. Well of course I don't know. Thats what this is all about. But all other census lead me to believe Birmingham is incorrect.
In my search I have found many John Webb's married to Mary's even with son's called George. Obviously I may be completely wrong dismissing Birmingham . It's just my gut instinct from what I know of the family and census info. I also appreciate I may be barking up the wrong tree!! Happy for anyone to give me right answers and prove me wrong.
Ain't this research wonderful ;D
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Jane, please take a look at my reply #18
Just seen it Jen, sorry. Well of course I don't know. Thats what this is all about. But all other census lead me to believe Birmingham is incorrect.
But you only have him on one other census. How do you know that's right and the 1871 incorrect :-\
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Jane, please take a look at my reply #18
Just seen it Jen, sorry. Well of course I don't know. Thats what this is all about. But all other census lead me to believe Birmingham is incorrect.
But you only have him on one other census. How do you know that's right and the 1871 incorrect :-\
Read my reply did I say I was right? Of course I didn't. It's just what I think, from what I know about family. I also said I don't mind being proved wrong. Isnt this what research is all about? The quest for the truth? I am always grateful for everyone's help.
Perhaps I have it all wrong, there is a lot of supposition in this game and I appreciate it is easy to make wrong information fit.
Sorry everyone.
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Read my reply
I did.
I only asked what I thought was a reasonable question.
Obviously I was wrong to do so.
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I think I'm with Jen on this one, you cant just dismiss Birmingham on a gut instinct. It seems very strange to me that his grandparents would put Birmingham for no reason at all, why chose that if he was born in Sussex? I think I would want to get the birth certificate, probably this one, to rule it out.
Births Mar 1868
Webb George Edward Birmingham 6d 199
The fact that Arundel is on a later census doesn't really mean a lot, people tended to put where they were brought up as a child. I've often found that the first census after a birth tends to be the most correct, the further it gets from birth the more distorted it can get re age and place of birth.
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Sorr Jen and groom. I am not dismissing it at all. I take on board what you are both saying. Think we had better leave it now.
Thanks for your replies and interest. I do not want any unpleasantness and you all know I am grateful.
Am giving up on this one before I upset anyone else ;D
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It's not a matter of upsetting any one, Jane. Both Jen and I have been doing this for years and know that you have to check out things and can't dismiss them out of hand, even if they don't fit with what you think.
For instance I have a great x3 grandfather who said he was born in Great Yarmouth on one census and then Liverpool and London on later ones. As I found him living first in London and then after his marriage in Liverpool, I though that Yarmouth must be a mistake. However, on careful checking I found that it was correct, he was born there, moved to London as a young child and then to Liverpool.
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Jan I agree. And I am not dismissing anything out of hand. I know everyone here is better at research than I am.
But just because I am fairly new to this doesn't necessarily mean I can't have my opinions on my own family. Of course I can be wrong, and very often am. But I do have a wealth of certificates and documents, family stories etc. So think I know my Redmans very well. But do I, perhaps it's all lies!!!
I know that finds have to be checked. I don't blindly believe what I find without proof. That's what this thread is all about.
On my tree if I am not 100% sure in say this is what I think but needs more proof! Never say this is true!
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But just because I am fairly new to this doesn't necessarily mean I can't have my opinions on my own family. Of course I can be wrong, and very often am. But I do have a wealth of certificates and documents, family stories etc. So think I know my Redmans very well. But do I, perhaps it's all lies!!!
Don't get so touchy, Jane, no one is saying that you don't know your own family. However just because majority are born in and around Arundel doesn't mean that the odd one can't be born in a completely different place. There could be a variety of reasons why his parents were there - work being one of them. As I said the only way to be really sure would be to sent for the certificate and say that you only want it if the mother's maiden name is Redman.
You did ask for help and advice, and that is what we gave you. I'm now bowing out of this thread.
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This could well be the birth reg of the one christened in Birmingham-
Jan/Feb/Mar 1868
Birmingham
Ref 6d 199
George Edward Webb
The birth cert would have mums maiden name, and so rule this one in or out for definite. But that does mean another £9-25 to outlay. No coffees for the week! Beans on toast for dinner!
Otherwise you will never know whether he was bn Birmingham or Arundel. It may not be that important to you, or you may want to spend out to be sure one way or the other. But without spending out, then any guesses will be no more than that, just guesses.
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This could well be the birth reg of the one christened in Birmingham-
Jan/Feb/Mar 1868
Birmingham
Ref 6d 199
George Edward Webb
The birth cert would have mums maiden name, and so rule this one in or out for definite. But that does mean another £9-25 to outlay. No coffees for the week! Beans on toast for dinner!
Otherwise you will never know whether he was bn Birmingham or Arundel. It may not be that important to you, or you may want to spend out to be sure one way or the other. But without spending out, then any guesses will be no more than that, just guesses.
Thanks Liz, yes will take a punt on this one. What is £10 nothing today.
I too am bowing out of this one. Just because others have been doing this for years does not make them any better than me. Touchy?? Yes and why not? I know a damm sight more about my family than anyone in here. Yes I did ask for help and appreciate all the input as as always.
Obviously I have to agree with everything I am told. Ok I am wrong everyone else is right.
End of. I give up. No more Rootschat.
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Dont go, Jane! We will miss you.
And we'd love an update on here when you get the certs.
We dont know better than you about your family. We are just looking at what sources we can to find what we can, and putting them to you as possibilities. When lots of things indicate something is a strong possibility then it is up to you to either confirm it, or rule it out, by getting the relevant certs. Either way doesnt make anyone "right" or "wrong", it is just how reasearch goes, following up possibilites until they are proven as fact or can be dismissed as proven to be incorrect.
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Liz, thanks :D. What you said is so nice.
I think many here would miss me like they'd miss a hole in the head!
No more for me, I know when to give up. Nice talking to you.
Jane
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And just one tip -
Sometimes it is a false economy to apply for a cert with the proviso that the mums maiden name is xxxx
In this instance, if you were to say that you only wanted it if the mums maiden name is Redman, and it had been enterred as Readman, or looked like Bedman, or something, then you run the risk that it wont be sent, and you rule out the very birth that is the correct one. Sometimes using that option can save a few pounds, but sometimes it can actually send you on a wild goose chase. Personally I have never used it - if I think that a particular entry in the index is the person I am looking for because other research has led me to it, then I want to see exactly what is on the cert, whether it is what I think it might be or not!
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William Leavy married Mary Redman 1860 Westhampnett 2b 385. So George Webb in 1871 was his step grandson.
This is probably George's birh
Births Mar 1868
Webb George Westhampnett 2b 349
This is likely to be the birth of George Webb who was baptised 19 Jan 1868 in Yapton, parents William & Catherine.
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William Leavy married Mary Redman 1860 Westhampnett 2b 385. So George Webb in 1871 was his step grandson.
This is probably George's birh
Births Mar 1868
Webb George Westhampnett 2b 349
This is likely to be the birth of George Webb who was baptised 19 Jan 1868 in Yapton, parents William & Catherine.
Definitely not my George wrong parents.
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William Leavy married Mary Redman 1860 Westhampnett 2b 385. So George Webb in 1871 was his step grandson.
This is probably George's birh
Births Mar 1868
Webb George Westhampnett 2b 349
This is likely to be the birth of George Webb who was baptised 19 Jan 1868 in Yapton, parents William & Catherine.
Definitely not my George wrong parents.
Which makes the George Edward Webb born Birmingham look even more likely as he is the only one on Freebmd with an E as a second name. Unfortunately his baptism record doesn't give his mother's maiden name, only the certificate would do this.
If you look at the actual census image it isn't a case of it being transcribed incorrectly, Birmingham is very clear.
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I cant leave this although I said I would.
Where is the E coming from? On the 1871 in Arundel with Mary and William we have George W. There is a George W b. 1868 on 1881 census with a mother Mary Ann b 1845 a widow born Northampton registration district Birmingham, not correct.
I think there are too many George Webbs with mother's called Mary Ann. We are in danger of making anything fit.
This is what I know, apart from Georges birth place, I strongly believe it would be London or Kent as there is a family connection with Kent, it is also possible she went home to parents to have baby but I don't think so.
On 1861 she was a servant in London. Married 1866 in London. Son George born 1868. Husband John died 1870 Kensington. On 1871 census Mary Ann Webb widow born Arundel working as a housemaid in Tonbridge. At some stage before 1871 she left baby George with her parents.
Jane :-\
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Where is the E coming from? On the 1871 in Arundel with Mary and William we have George W.
The E comes from the actual image of the 1871 census, it is the W that is a transcription error.
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I think there are too many George Webbs with mother's called Mary Ann. We are in danger of making anything fit.
I think that you are probably correct!
Best thing to do is to start with the one piece of information that you know is correct. What information would that be?
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.......But only one George E Webb bn 1868, Birmingham with parents John and Mary Ann!
(Yes, the E comes from the 1871 image)
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.......But only one George E Webb bn Birmingham with parents John and Mary Ann!
(Yes, the E comes from the 1871 image)
Sorry which 1871 census please? Obviously not the Arundel one.
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Yes, the Arundel one.
The one quoted by groom at reply #2
Where George is with grandparents and birthplace is given as Birmingham
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The E comes from the actual image of the 1871 census, it is the W that is a transcription error.
I agree groom, Jane , if you look at the actual image at the name Edwin ( 7 names below George ) the E is written the same as the E in Georges middle name,
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Sorry which 1871 census please? Obviously not the Arundel one.
Yes, the 1871 Arundel one
RG10; Piece: 1110; Folio: 68; Page: 22;
Bond Street, Arundel, East Preston, Sussex
In fact it is only Ancestry that has the transcription as George W Webb, both FindMyPast and the Genealogist have it correctly as George E Webb.
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1871 Arundel census :)
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Hi guys,
Yes I see what you mean, sorry didn't spot that on the real census it does look like an E. My mistake.
Jan, you asked what do I know? Mary born 1842 Arundel, daughter of George and Mary Redman.
She is on 1851 - 1911 census. Died 1935. Married John Webb, one son George. Remarried in 1889 back in Sussex. There is more but it may confuse even more if I mention it at the moment.
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Not sure there is much else that we can do on this at the moment.
As far as his death is concerned (and original request was forwhat happened to George after 1881) a very possible one was found in Tonbridge. So until that is either confirmed as correct (in which case question answered!) or alternatively ruled out, there is no point in looking further.
As to his birth, all roads are currently leading to tbe Birmingham one. I know you have your doubts over it, but again until it iseither ruled out, or confirmed as the correct one, then there is little that can be done as all research is just leading to that.
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Hi Jane
We are going round in circles with George. The only way to sort it out if you really want to follow him, is to get that Birmingham certificate. If that isn't him, we can apologise to you and it it is him you can agree we were right. ;D ;D
Sorry Lizdb, didn't see your post, but I've said much the same thing.
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Great minds think alike!
And, whilst we all love a good chance to say "I told you so" ;D, as I said before it isnt about one person being right and another being wrong. It is about following the leads that are found by careful researching until they either prove to be the correct event, or can be ruled out. At the moment the Birmingham birth is the strongest lead from the research that has been done. So next move is to follow that up. Either it is the correct one and you are all sorted, or it isnt and then you can start thinking of other scenarios. It is just the fundamentals of good research, not a matter of someone being right or wrong!
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Thank you all.
Birmingham Certificate is being obtained. Might get Tonbridge one as well.
I agree we are going round in circles. I do not want any apologies from anyone if I am right. My research is not about scoring points or saying "told you so"! I am seeking the truth. I am well aware that I cannot say who is wrong or right without concrete proof. I have only ever said I think or I don't think.... never I am 100% sure.
Thank you again, I really do appreciate all the input, although some may think I don't, but maybe it is time to call it a day. I have lots to think about which is what this thread was all about, bouncing ideas of people.
Jane :D
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Let us know what the outcome of the certificates is. It will be interesting to see why he died so young if the Tonbridge one is him.
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Jane,
Just trying to follow this one through logically to see if I can help.
Do you know how old John Webb was when he married Mary Ann Redman? Obviously he died somewhere between their marriage in 1866 and the 1871 census, be interesting to find out where. His age at the time of marriage might help in narrowing down a death.
Regards
Sean
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Jane,
Just trying to follow this one through logically to see if I can help.
Do you know how old John Webb was when he married Mary Ann Redman? Obviously he died somewhere between their marriage in 1866 and the 1871 census, be interesting to find out where. His age at the time of marriage might help in narrowing down a death.
Regards
Sean
Sean as yet not looked for John Webb. I found a death in Kensington 1870 which could or not be him, he was born 1805. In 1861 Mary was in London, married in London 1866, George born 1868. On 1871 census Tonbridge Mary was a widow.
Mary's brother and sister lived in tonbridge.
I know what you all thinking if it is him he was 63 when fathered George, but it's not impossible for men to father children in 80's!!!!
My thoughts on John are pure speculation but found no other deaths that fit timescale.
Appreciate any input.
From your name I guess you have Webb connections.
Jane
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What is the age/occupation/address/fathers name and occupation etc for John on his marriage cert?
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A quick glance at freebmd reveals several pages of John Webbs dying between 1868 and 1871. Any one of them could have been Mary's husband.
Where did you get his birth year of 1805 from? Or is that just the birth year of the Joihn Webb who died in Kensington in 1870?
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Jane,
Yes I have Webb connections but sadly not the ones we have mentioned in this thread.
There looked a likely death in the Tonbridge District for a John Webb in 1870 age 43 which I would think is around the right ball park figure.
I was just trying to narrow down the time frame that they went to Birmingham in, if indeed they did. It is an odd one to go from living in London till around 1866 then to go up to Birmingham, have a child in 1868 and then return to Kent in time for 1870/1871. Certainly not impossible, but I wonder what the reason was.
John was a labourer so perhaps an employment opportunity arose in Birmingham, enough to make them move. Then either, he died up there and Mary returned with George, or they returned and he died in Kent.
I guess the birth cert will reveal all, but it is a good mystery!
Regards
Sean
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He is in Arundel in 1871 with granny. Mary has found herself a job in Kent.
Do we know where John came from ? Maybe he was already in Birmingham, went to London and met and married Mary (I think you said Mary was in London in 1861) and took her back to Birmigham, had a son, then died. Mary manages to secure a position in Kent, and young George goes to granny's. Im not sure it is beyond the realms of possibility.
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Will the Birmingham birth cert Definitely give mothers name and place of birth?how long before I get it?
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Will the Birmingham birth cert Definitely give mothers name and place of birth?how long before I get it?
Birth cert will give mothers name and maiden name too, and place of birth , Don't know how long before receiving it, maybe a week or so , it's a while since I ordered any certs ,!
The address given on that George Edward Webb baptism in Birmingham is Aberdeen St, ( which still exists today , )in the Winson area of Birmingham , googling it , shows it's not that far from the Canal, maybe John was a labourer on the Canal ?
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Will the Birmingham birth cert Definitely give mothers name and place of birth?
It will give her maiden name, but not her place of birth, only the birthplace of the child.
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When you order the certificate through the GRO they will tell you the estimated date of dispatch, it depends how busy they are and of course this weekend is a Bank Holiday so will slow things up. I've found it is usually between a week to 10 days.
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Will the Birmingham birth cert Definitely give mothers name and place of birth?
It will give her maiden name, but not her place of birth, only the birthplace of the child.
Sorry Jane , I misread your question , and so my answer looks as if it would give the mothers place of birth, which wouldn't show , ( only Scottish birth certs show that info!)
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This is a good site which explains what you can find on certificates
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/births.htm
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Thanks to you all. How about I get Mary's marriage cert. Do you think that is worth a punt?
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Depends if you want to try and trace John Webb's family as that would only tell you what you already know about Mary ie her age, where she was living at the time of her marriage, occupation, father's name and his occupation. It would tell you the same about John. Unfortunately, although the marriage is on Ancestry it is only an index one and there is no image.
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Depends if you want to try and trace John Webb's family as that would only tell you what you already know about Mary ie her age, where she was living at the time of her marriage, occupation, father's name and his occupation. It would tell you the same about John. Unfortunately, although the marriage is on Ancestry it is only an index one and there is no image.
That's a good point Jan. At the moment no I don't really want to pursue that line. Think I best concentrate on one person at a time.
On an unrelated note. Remember the American branch? Guess what? Have had a post on an Indiana research site for over a year, was contacted today by a guy who is a descendant of my gtx3 grandfather s son!!!! Wow. He has mailed twice sounds promising.
So much going on. Have my first Meet Saturday with 3 sisters and hubbies, granddaughters of my granddad brother. Very excited. Have a table for 8 booked at local pub (hubby coming with me for moral support).
Thanks again to you and everyone else on this thread. I know I can be a pain ;D
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Have order death Tunbridge and birth Birmingham certs for possible George Webb's. On looking at 1881 census in Kent with mother says his birth place same as hers, Sussex. Anyway apart from the Westhampnett birth which has wrong parents. Thinking it must be Birmingham. Did think at one point could be born in London because that's where mother married, but would mean buying far too many certs :-\ I would if they were cheaper!
I am ready to eat humble pie, I have had so much I have acquired quite a taste for it ;D I will let you know results.
Jane :D
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To all who have helped on this one. I am in need of some new eyes to sort out this one.
Are you willing to 're-open this thread and help me. I now have birth and death certs for George Webb.
They have put several cats amongst the pigeons. I don't know where to start!
Jane
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Hi Jane, fire away.
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Jan
This is doing my head in so please be patient. I am trying to sort out what to put here as succinctly as possible. I am also searching my papers for something I can't find but is very relevant. Can't proceed without it.
What I will say is that George Webb was born in Birmingham mother Redman. It is the death cert that is problem but it is him.
Once I can work out what to say will be back.
This one has really come back to bite me on the bum :o
Keep watching please ;D
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Pleased you have confirmed his birth
Look forward to hearing what challenges the death cert has brought!
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Jan here goes.
Birth cert. George Edward Webb 16 Dec 1867. Mother Mary Ann Webb formerly Redman, father John Webb Aberdeen St. Birmingham-jobbing l labourer.
Apologies if I am repeating but this is what I have found.
Mary Ann Redman b 1842 Arundel.daughter of George and Mary Redman.
1851 census Arundel.
1861 census Marylebone London working as Servant.
1866 free bdm marriage Mary Ann Redman and John Webb St Martin's in Fields London. NOT PROVED.
1868 Birth registered Birmingham George Edward Webb b 17 Dec 1867 mother Mary Ann Webb formerly Redman and John Webb
1870 free bdm death John Webb Kensington.
1871 census Mary Ann Webb widow housemaid Tonbridgs
1871 George E Webb grandson living with Grandmother and 2nd husband William Leavy in Arundel
1881 Mary Webb and George visitors living with Henry Thorpe Speldhurst Kent.
Henry was married to Mary's sister Elizabeth 1868 she died 1875. On census Louisa Thorpe aged 5 born 1875 so not daughter of Elizabeth. I THINK LOUISA DAUGHTER OF MARY ALL WILL BE REVEALED LATER.
1885 Death cert. George Webb dies father John Webb deceased Moulded. Mother M A Thorpe present at death Spring Cottage, Denny Bottom. DID SHE MARRY HENRY THORPE? There is also a connection with Denny Bottom through Mary's nephew Arthur John Redman his Aunt and uncle on mother's side lived there.
1889 Mary back in Sussex marries Charles withall
1891 census Sussex Mary and Charkese
1901 census Bognor Mary and Charles joined by Louisa Webb.BELIEVE THIS IS LOUISA THORPE
1901 Louisa marries Arthur John Redman son of Mary's brother John. HER COUSIN.
1911 Mary and Charles livinG Shoreham with Arthur and Louise.
1917 free Bmd death Charles Withall MAYBE
1935 free bmd Mary Ann Withall COULD BE
So there we have it. I couldn't be any briefer sorry and I hope you haven't lost the will to live. Bits are not proved. There is a strange connection with Kent. Mary, John and Elizabeth, then Mary living with dead sisters husband ossibly having a daughter by him and maybe marrying him, then nephew marrying her daughter? George dying at home of mum's nephews maternal aunt.
My head is ready to explode. Don't know where to start sorting this out.
Jane
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1885 Death cert. George Webb dies father John Webb deceased Moulded. Mother M A Thorpe present at death Spring Cottage, Denny Bottom. DID SHE MARRY HENRY THORPE? There is also a connection with Denny Bottom through Mary's nephew Arthur John Redman his Aunt and uncle on mother's side lived there.
I can't immediately see a marriage.
However, since Mary was living at Denny Bottom in the same household as Henry in 1881 I'd be inclined to think that, if they didn't marry, they were possibly living together as man and wife and she was using his surname, hence the name on the death certificate.
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What a muddle!
I agree Louisa can't be Elizabeth's daughter as Elizabeth died Sept quarter 1875 and Louisa was born June quarter 1876 both Tunbridge. So Mary must have moved in to "comfort" her brother in law with in weeks of her sister's death! Louisa's birth certificate would give you her mother's name. Interesting that she was registered as Thorpe when it probably should have been Webb.
There is no marriage of Henry Thorpe and a Mary Webb between 1881 and 1885, so it looks as if she was just calling herself Thorpe, also she married Charles Withall under the name of Webb. If she did marry Henry, then the chances are her marriage to Charles was a bigamous one.
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And to add to the confusion, Arthur John Redman called himself John Webb when he joined the army in 1890. He joined up for service again in WW1, his papers say Arthur John Redman (alias Webb). According to army record, he married Louisa Elizabeth Webb on 24 Sep 1902 in Parish church Bognor. Witnesses K Withall and C Withall.
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So why was he using the name Webb I wonder - what was he hiding?
Out of interest, Jane, what was the cause of George Webb's death, as he was quite young wasn't he?
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Has anyone found Arthur John Redman alias John Webb's army records for when he joined up in 1890? I've found the ones for WW1 which make interesting reading as they contain a full description of him.
If his date of birth in those is correct (1874) , he could only have been 16 when he enlisted in 1890 - I wonder if he ran away from home and that is why he used the false name?
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Guys thanks. Rather than quotes will answer question.
Jen, I can agree with your thinking. She just took the name Thorpe coz living with him.
Jan , yes but maybe called Thorpe to keep up appearances but birth cert could show Webb, worth another £10 will order tomorrow.
Lizzie and Jan, the Arthur John Redman alias John Webb is a puzzle. Maybe he was ashamed of being in workhouse when parents died so changed name, or aunt Mary took him in and he liked to be known as Webb, when he got involved with Louisa had to change back. It's a nice story!
George died of T. B.
Thanks for all replies. What would a marriage cert show? Perhaps I should think of that for Mary and John Webb 1866. John father of George came from Birmingham or did he. Wonder why George born there.
I think a lot of my research is ok what do you all think. Be honest I can take it ;)
Jane
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Jan, I have all his army records. Both names are him. He didn't run away from home he was in the workhouse with his 2 brothers. Mum and dad died when he was about 7. Sad that no other family members took him in.
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Jan , yes but maybe called Thorpe to keep up appearances but birth cert could show Webb, worth another £10 will order tomorrow.
She was registered as Thorpe, so that is what will be on the certificate. However, it should show her mother as Mary Webb formerly Redman.
Births Jun 1876
THORPE Louisa Elizabeth
Tunbridge 2a 591
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Sad that no other family members took him in.
Have you got his workhouse records, when did he leave there? Perhaps, as you said, Mary did take him in as a young child and that is why he used the name Ward.
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Didn't read everything Jan. Arthur John born 1871, George Edward b 1874 and William b 1879.
Is it worth getting birth cert, what would you do?
Got workhouse records. He is still a work in progress not covered workhouse years fully.
Jane
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Sad that no other family members took him in.
Have you got his workhouse records, when did he leave there? Perhaps, as you said, Mary did take him in as a young child and that is why he used the name Ward.
Jan, just before go to bed went outside for ciggie, was thinking. He joined army 1890 next of kin George Turley and wife Ann sister of his mother if Mary took him in wouldn't she be next of kin? Just a thought.
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It really depends how much you want to follow her up - is she a close relation?
I would expect the certificate to show that she was the daughter of Henry and Mary. Depending on what they said when they registered her, Mary's name could be down as Thorpe or Webb. I bet there was gossip amongst the neighbours! :D
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So were Ann and Mary both his aunts? I think you can name who you like as NOK, it doesn't have to be your nearest relative. It just seems odd that if he enlisted legally he didn't use the name Redman, which makes me think he'd been living with Mary and using the Ward name for some years. What a pity it falls between censuses.
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Has anyone found Arthur John Redman alias John Webb's army records for when he joined up in 1890? I've found the ones for WW1 which make interesting reading as they contain a full description of him.
If his date of birth in those is correct (1874) , he could only have been 16 when he enlisted in 1890 - I wonder if he ran away from home and that is why he used the false name?
They're on FindMyPast, three sets indexed as Redman alias Webb. In 1890 he pretends he's two years older (i.e. 18) Description on record including distinctive birthmark tallies.
He gets a mention in these threads, but not main subject
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=709826.9
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=709677.18
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Morning All.
Arthur's father John was Mary's brother. He married Mary Edwards. Her sister is Ann who married George Turnley. So yes both aunts, paternal and maternal
Mary and John are brother and sister of my Great grandfather William so pretty close yes. I am interested in them and spouses.
At the moment am concentrating on Mary and John Webb. Is the marriage and death for John Webb I have correct? I only thought the London marriage because she was working there and his death because she was a widow on 1871 census.
Although Louisa Thorpe/Webb and Arthur John are connected.
Thanks for all replies and help much appreciated.
Jane
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At the moment am concentrating on Mary and John Webb. Is the marriage and death for John Webb I have correct?
Only the certificates will tell you that conclusively.
I think you an be fairly confident about the marriage, since it's between John Webb and Mary Ann Redman, and it's the only Redman-Webb marriage to be found on freeBMD.
I'm much less convinced by the death. You know that John Webb was alive in 1868 when George was born, and that he was living in Birmingham.
You know that Mary was a widow in 1871.
There are a lot of potential deaths in between those two dates other than the one in Kensington R.D. :-\
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I think the marriage could well be the correct one. The death is harder as John Webb is a common name and we don't know where they were when he died. The only thing we know is that they were in Birmingham when George was born.
Snap Jen, we think alike!
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Incidentally, I've just realised that Henry and Mary couldn't have married as it was illegal for a man to marry his dead wife's sister until the Deceased Wife's Sister's Marriage Act of 1907. There was nothing to stop cousins marrying.
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Incidentally, I've just realised that Henry and Mary couldn't have married as it was illegal for a man to marry his dead wife's sister until the Deceased Wife's Sister's Marriage Act of 1907. There was nothing to stop cousins marrying.
Didn't stop some of OH's rellies in the 1870's. They went to London to marry away from the family!
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I may have missed something - why is it thought that the death of a John Webb in Kensington is the one we want?
How do we know he was still alive when George was born?
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How do we know he was still alive when George was born?
I think we are assuming so -
a) because his name is on the birth certificate
b) because he is named as parent on the baptism
both without the word 'deceased' after them :-\
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You know that Mary was a widow in 1871.
We're all, of course, assuming that Mary Ann really was a 'widow' in 1871 :-\ We are taking what was said on the census as fact. However, I've seen several census returns which listed people as widow/widower when I know for certain that they weren't.
It's more than likely, I know, that she was a widow - but keep an open mind......... :-\
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That is very true, Jen. It is possible that they did split up and she just put widow to look respectable. The marriage certificate might help as if that shows John Webb's father, it will give a clue where he was born. It may also give John's age, which would help finding a death.
I'm not convinced that the 1870 Kensington death was him unless he was a lot older than Mary, as that person was 65 when he died.
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A quick glance at freebmd reveals several pages of John Webbs dying between 1868 and 1871. Any one of them could have been Mary's husband.
I'm with Liz on this (assuming he died pre-1871).
They were in London 1866, in Birmingham 1868, Mary is back in Tonbridge in 1871. Who knows where they might have been between 1868 and 1871? People were much more mobile than we give them credit for.
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As it is between censuses, I think the only way we may have a chance of finding his death is if there is an age on the marriage certificate and that it doesn't just say "Full Age" I think that is the next step Jane, to get that certificate. There may be more clues on it to help us to identify him.
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I'm not convinced that the 1870 Kensington death was him unless he was a lot older than Mary, as that person was 65 when he died.
Perhaps she meant the 1869 Kensington death, that John was 33.
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Possible, but as Jen said they could have been anywhere!
Ancestry and FindMyPast both have the marriage in their England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973. It gives the date as 4th March 1866 in Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster. Unfortunately it is index only and no image or mention of parents or age.
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I think Henry Thorpe married Sarah Swan in 1887. It looks like the same Henry in 1901 census with wife Sarah and a child. Also 1891 transcribed as Thoss on Ancestry.
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Thanks all. Sorry have had to do some work this morning! This is taking off too fast for me. Will try and answer everyone as best I can.
Yes I realize there are more deaths in the time frame just cottoned on to that one ::)
On the birth certificate father was still alive, so all I know he died between 1868 and 1871 when Mary Webb was on census as widow. Yes possibly Mary could have lied about being a widow, never thought of that. Oh dear. Another cat amongst the pigeons!!!
Henry Thorpe married 1858 Helen Highland with 3 children Frederick, Arthur and Horace. She died in 1867 and in 1868 he married Elizabeth Redman sister of Mary. Elizabeth died in 1875. That is as far as I have gone. He may well have married Sarah Swan but I am not following him. But thanks for looking Lizzie.
The marriage and the death of John were guesswork and are marked in my files as to be proven! The rest I am happy with. The sad fact is that in the 10 years between census people could go almost anywhere, and return to the same area and we would never know they had gone! The same goes for the Birmingham connection, will probably never work that one out. There is a lot of speculation in all of our findings and it is extremely hard to fill in the gaps. A lot of my research is based on what I find and my gut instinct. I know many will say that is wrong, I agree, for some yes. However, in the case of Georges Birth in Birmingham you know I thought it was wrong, but I wasn't blinkered enough not to purchase the birth certificate. I am happy to be proved wrong and now have 100% proof of birth. We all approach our research in different ways, at the end of the day it is a hobby there is no wrong or right way. I blunder on in my own particular way sometimes annoying people with my comments and talk of gut instincts blah blah.
But I couldn't do it without all of you! I cant say enough how I appreciate what you find.
Jane ;D
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On the birth certificate father was still alive,
Was John Webb the informant on the birth certificate?
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Is there a number for Aberdeen Street on the certificate?
Info removed - wrong name! Sorry
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On the birth certificate father was still alive,
Was John Webb the informant on the birth certificate?
Is there a number for Aberdeen Street on the certificate?
In 1871 there is a John C Ward born 1819 Birmingham and his wife Sarah born 1819 Old Swinford, Worcestershire living at number 30, Aberdeen Street. I wonder if they could be John Ward's parents? John C Ward's occupation is General Chaser - no idea what that was!
I have birth cert in front of me -When and where born - sixteenth December 1867, Aberdeen St., - George Edward. Boy. Father -John Webb. Mother- Mary Ann Webb formerly Redman. Occupation of father - Jobbing Labourer. Informant - x the mark of John Webb Father Aberdeen St. Birmingham. Registered- 1st |January 1868. So father was alive - unless someone was impersonating him- JOKE!!!!!!
On the death cert 1885 Informant was mother M.A. Thorpe present at death of Denny Bottom. Father John Webb deceased occupation Moulder. George has TB for 4 months.
Jan, you keep mentioning John Ward is this just a typo or do you know something I dont ;D? It is definitely Webb.
I am now going to look on free bmd for marriage and deaths within 1868-1871 with a view to purchasing a marriage cert.
Jane :)
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Sorry Jane, I removed that info from my post, it was the wrong name!
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I have birth cert in front of me -When and where born - sixteenth December 1867, Aberdeen St., - George Edward. Boy. Father -John Webb. Mother- Mary Ann Webb formerly Redman. Occupation of father - Jobbing Labourer. Informant - x the mark of John Webb Father Aberdeen St. Birmingham. Registered- 1st |January 1868. So father was alive - unless someone was impersonating him- JOKE!!!!!!
That's good, so we know he was alive in Dec 1867, it really depends how truthful Mary was in 1871.
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I'd suggest, as Jan did earlier, that your next move should be the marriage certificate. This might well give you John's age and also his father's name, which will help the search a lot.
As to the death certificate, there are a lot of possibilities, so not sure how you'll decide which might be the right one :-\
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How about this for a possibility for his death, considering it is where Mary Ann was in 1871?
March Quarter 1870
John Webb Aged 43
Tunbridge
2a 386
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Definitely marriage cert first. If you're lucky it will give his age, and unless he was illegitimate it will give you his father's name and occupation. Then hopefully you will be able to find him on 1871 census and get a better idea of his age from that. That should narrow down possible deaths.
John's occupation on George's death certificate as "moulder"? moulding what I wonder?
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John's occupation on George's death certificate as "moulder"? moulding what I wonder?
Probably making moulds for iron castings or maybe for brickmaking.
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Then hopefully you will be able to find him on 1871 census and get a better idea of his age from that.
If Mary was truthful he was dead by then.
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Aaah, I meant 1861. Fat fingers can't cope with new laptop's extended keyboard
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Thanks for replies.
Now I have come across another problem.
Is this right. I go into free bmd and look for a marriage I put in John Webb and dates I want and then click on the page number and of the people on that page one should be Mary Redman? If that is true none are! Also I cant find any Mary Redmans married in the right timescale.
I have just printed out all the deaths between 1868 and 1870 3 pages, I see the one you mean Jan. If we assume he was similar age to mary can narrow it down a bit, then take out all the kids and babies not so many left.
I agree that my guesses about marriage and death are incorrect just making things fit with what I want to believe. I also feel that is an impossible task. I cant purchase marriage certs on the offchance that I will find the correct one.
I feel a "Beam me up Scottie" moment coming on. I am thinking maybe she didn't marry John Webb, just called herself that for appearance sake. Where on earth do I go from here? Down the pub I think :o
Jane ;D
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freeBMD shows John Webb + on the same page Mary Ann Redman, 1st quarter 1866, St Martins 1a 633
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Marriages Mar 1866
BARKER Joseph F St. Martin 1a 633
Clements Amelia S St Martin 1a 633
Redman Mary A St Martin's 1a 633
WEBB John St. Martin 1a 633
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Also
John Webb
Marriage Date: 4 Mar 1866
Saint Martin In The Fields,Westminster
Spouse: Mary Ann Redman
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freeBMD shows John Webb + on the same page Mary Ann Redman, 1st quarter 1866, St Martins 1a 633
Marriages Mar 1866
BARKER Joseph F St. Martin 1a 633
Clements Amelia S St Martin 1a 633
Redman Mary A St Martin's 1a 633
WEBB John St. Martin 1a 633
Thanks Jen and Jan,
Silly me, put the wrong dates in! See why I need your help ;D I need your eyes for things I miss. So if I purchase that it will give me what I need to know about John? That's the one I found and dismissed. Mary`s mother was married their in 1828 that's why I thought it was correct.
I will order it tomorrow. Is speedy delivery very expensive? Don't know if I can wait 3 weeks.
Jan I am tempted to get the Tunbridge death cert 1870 but perhaps should see marriage cert first?
It's only money! Just spent £180 on hubbies birthday without flinching, why not round it about to 200!
Jane
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The marriage certificate might tell you his age - on the other hand it might just say 'full age' i.e. over 21.
It should tell you his father's name - unless he was illegitimate and didn't know what it was.
It will give you his occupation.
You will have to decide whether it's a chance worth taking.
He could have died anywhere. The Tunbridge one might be correct - and it might not. Personally I'd wait and get the marriage certificate first.
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So if I purchase that it will give me what I need to know about John?
As Jen said it's a gamble, you could be lucky and get age, father and a family member as a witness, or you might get Full Age, no father and a member of the church as a witness
IF it gives his age and that fits with the age of death of the one who died in Tunbridge, then you could get that certificate. Again if you are lucky, Mary may have registered the death. Of all the deaths I saw, that looks the most probable to me, as Mary was there a few months later.
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I will order it tomorrow. Is speedy delivery very expensive? Don't know if I can wait 3 weeks.
Priority orders £23.40. They are despatched the following working day if you order before 4pm, so one ordered tomorrow should be despatched Friday.
Standard ones are despatched on the fourth working day from receipt of order, or the fifteenth working day when no reference number is quoted. You have the reference number so it shouldn't take much longer than a week to reach you.
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I will take a chance and order the marriage cert and pray it will have what I need
I agree the death cert can wait. One thing at a time.
Will keep you posted. Any other info you can find will be gratefully received.
On a different note my youngest son is giving me first grandson, just found out its a boy, calling him William after my wonderful father on the left. When he told me I cried, gramps would have been so proud he would also loved how much we have all found out about his beloved Redmans. He would have loved rootschat.
Jane :)
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Congratulations.
I don't think there is much more we can do for the moment until we know what is on the marriage certificate.
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Congratulations.
I don't think there is much more we can do for the moment until we know what is on the marriage certificate.
Thanks Jan.
And thanks to everyone else as well. Yes not much to do until get cert. All this has given me a boost and the baby news. It has taken mind of hubbies probs. I am thinking positive now.
This site is so therapeutic better than pills etc. for stress!
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Congratulations.
I don't think there is much more we can do for the moment until we know what is on the marriage certificate.
Jan, marriage cert should be here 31st July. Fingers crossed it is them.
Will let you all know.
Jane
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Only a week to wait then, and sometimes it is quicker than they say!
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I finally got marriage cert today. It didn't have as much info as I had hoped but it proves it is right marriage. 4 March 1866 St Martin in the Fields. .
So John Webb bachelor, no age given just says full age, and Mary Ann Redman spinster full age. He was iron moulder. Couldn't write. Residence for both time of marriage Whitehall.
John's father was Samuel Webb a Mason. Witnesses were her brother W C Redman my Great Grandfather and Elizabeth Redman.
To return to birth cert for George, John was a jobbing labourer who couldn't write.
So I have a birth certificate for possibly my George Webb. A positive marriage cert for mother and father, and a positive death cert for George.
The next step must be to find John Webb with his supposed family in Birmingham
We now have a father's name.
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They could have been more considerate and had one of John's siblings as a witness as that might have made it easier to find his family!
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The next step must be to find John Webb with his supposed family in Birmingham
We don't know that they came from Birmingham do we, just that John was working there when George was born? He could have come from anywhere! Does it say his father is deceased on the marriage certificate, if not that could be a start to look for a Samuel Webb, mason, in 1861.
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Jan, I am happy with what I have. Don't see what good will come of searching for John Webb. I believe I have all correct certs and sadly end of line for George due to early death. The whys and wherefores of the Birmingham connection may never be solved. I admit am curious about John Webb and will always keep the search open.
The only details on marriage cert are what I posted.
Jane
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I'm afraid as well, that with what little you have on John Webb, as he appears and disappears between censuses, you could never be 100% sure that you had the right family. Lucky that he isn't a direct line!
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I'm afraid as well, that with what little you have on John Webb, as he appears and disappears between censuses, you could never be 100% sure that you had the right family. Lucky that he isn't a direct line!
Yes, although not found him on any census! Thanks for your help and interest, much appreciated as always. I was wondering about maybe getting the death cert for the John Webb in Tunbridge it's only tenner! In fact I will!
See you around ;D
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That will confirm if he is John Webb, George's father. I suspect, given where Mary Ann was in 1871, that it is the right one. It probably won't tell you anything more about him ie where he was born.
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That will confirm if he is John Webb, George's father. I suspect, given where Mary Ann was in 1871, that it is the right one. It probably won't tell you anything more about him ie where he was born.
I agree think right guy, will go for it, I have come this far. I have really enjoyed the search and waiting for certs. Its only money, cant take it with me!
Will move on to the next Redman watch this space!
Aint this hobby great, really helps me escape worry of hubbies health and waiting for cat scan results.