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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cambridgeshire => Topic started by: maddys52 on Thursday 04 June 15 05:08 BST (UK)
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I have asked for help about this family before, but was hoping someone might have some fresh ideas. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=695295.0
I'm looking for Thomas Sykes (born approx 1795) and Elizabeth who had 4 children baptised at Witcham: Edward (1817), Anthony (1818), Lucy (1821) and Thomas (1824). Elizabeth seems to disappear and Anthony (sorry, meant Thomas) has more children baptised with Ann : James (1827), George (1829), William (1831), Henry (1834), John (1836, died 1836) and another John (1838). In 1841 Thomas and Ann are at Witcham with Lucy and subsequent children. Thomas Sykes dies in 1846 aged 51 and Ann marries Phillip Papworth in 1849. In 1851 Ann and Philip are in Witcham with his 2 previous children (William and Samuel) and now 13 yr old John Sykes.
Ann's father was Anthony Catton, horse farrier (possibly died 1812 Willingham) according to her marriage to Philip Papworth.
There is another Thomas Sykes (born Elsworth) and Ann Cann who marry in Willingham in 1816, but I don't think this is the same family as they appear to be in the 1851 census in Huntingdonshire.
Where was Thomas Sykes born and to whom? Who was Elizabeth? Is she the same person as Ann? Were Thomas, Elizabeth, Ann married at all? How can I find out any more about Thomas and Elizabeth in particular? I'm stumped!
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As we said on the other thread, a lot of vital events seem to be missing, which I always think is suspicious:
- marriage of Thomas and Elizabeth c1816
- death of Elizabeth 1824-27
- marriage of Thomas Sykes and Ann Catton c1827
Were Elizabeth and Ann the same person? Possibly. Is the marriage of Thomas Sykes and Ann Cann in Willingham in 1816 an error and should be Catton? I can well imagine that Catton spoken in a yokel Cambridgeshire accent could easily be misheard as Cann. You need to check the parish register to see if it might be a transcription error and to see if the witnesses provide a clue. A bit of a coincidence that the Anthony Catton burial that was found was also in Willingham. I don't believe in coincidences.
The traditional naming pattern was that the second son was named after its mother's father. Thomas and Elizabeth's second son was named Anthony, pointing to her father being Anthony.
You say that the Thomas Sykes living in Huntingdon St John, born Elsworth, in 1851 is the one who married in Willingham. Is there any evidence for this? I disagree, as I am wont to do in matters genealogical! I think he's more likely to be the Thomas Sykes who married Ann Hitchcraft at Huntingdon All Saints & St John in 1821. I think the marriage in Willingham between Thomas Sykes and Ann Cann is probably the right one, with Catton being mangled in the translation. I also think that Elizabeth/Ann are probably one and the same.
Of course I can't prove any of it. It's just speculation. You need to check Willingham microfiche to start with - if you're really lucky it might give a parish of residence for Thomas - followed by the Huntingdon All Saints & St John parish register.
David
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Thanks for your reply and thoughts David. I was wondering about the Cann/Catton possible error, especially when I found Anthony Catton's burial in Willingham. Will go back and check for any Ann/Elizabeth Cann/Catton ... records.
You're probably right about the Thomas Sykes Ann Hitchcraft marriage. In any case, I think the Thomas Sykes born in Elsworth about the same time is not my Thomas, but don't know why I can't find a birth for him.
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Baptism Elsworth 22 Sep 1799 Thomas Sykes son of Robert & Rebecca
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The Willingham PRs (on fiche) say that both Ann and Thomas were botp-both of this parish.
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Thanks anneb, although I guess that doesn't mean they were born in Willingham, only resident there for the required time before marriage, but it's a help.
If you have the Willingham fiche, and if it covers pre 1800 baptisms, would it be possible to see if there are any likely baptisms for Thomas Sykes, Ann/Elizabeth Cann/Catton around 1795-1800, or Anthony Catton around 1742?
Many thanks again.
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Baptism Elsworth 22 Sep 1799 Thomas Sykes son of Robert & Rebecca
Thanks David, yes I've seen the records for the Elsworth Sykes. It's the other Thomas I can't find. ???
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Looking at some of Thomas Sykes's children's families I came across the name Levett COLLIN (in various spellings) - Thomas' son William's son was named Levett Collin SYKES and appears as 'nephew' in the 1881 Wicham census with Levett COLLIN who I traced through the various census as being born around 1806 at Mepal. There is a Levett COLLIN baptised in 1806 at Stretham to Margaret and John MARTIN (not sure why he doesn't have the surname of the father?), and another Levett COLLINS family at Cottenham baptising children from 1802 - 1820, although none of the children are named Levett that I can see.
Is the similarity of the name COLLIN and CATTON worth persuing I wonder? I can't seem to make the connection with the SYKES family.
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No baptisms for Thomas Sykes or Anthony Catton. There was an Elizabeth Cane d of Robert and Sarah baptised 10th October 1785. An Ann Cain d of Ann on 16th Aug 1794, an Anna Catherine Cann d of Rebecca on 16th Jan 1797, Ann Cann d of Rebecca on 8th October 1798 and Anne Cane d of Anne on 15th December 1798.
Probably not much help.
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Thanks anneb, I might try to follow these up ... see where they lead, although as you say, doesn't look too promising.
thanks again for your efforts. :)
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This is a question for Maddy52.
My ancestor, in the U.S., is James Sykes b. 1825, who has a brother, George Sykes, b. 1828. I believe, based on online research, that they were born near Witcham, in Cambridgeshire. Certainly George was married in Oct. 10, 1852 in Ely, Cambridgeshire, to Jane, presumably Gadsby.
I read your email of June 4, 2015 with interest. I am trying to identify the parents of James and George, and my own online research has suggested Thomas Sykes and Ann. Then I came across your email.
The baptismal years for James and George coincide with those mentioned in your email.
A further coincidence is that James, who married Elizabeth Poole before coming to the U.S., had sons named William, Henry, and John. There was a marriage with those names in Ely in 1849.
Question: Is anything you know about James b. 1825 and George b. 1828 inconsistent with the known fact that they came to the U.S. in the 1850s?
If not, it appears that the Thomas and the Ann you have identified might be their parents.
Thanks.
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Hello tdsykes and welcome to rootschat!
It sounds very much like the James and George you're talking about are the same as I have born in Witcham. Just looking through my files on this family (it's a while since I've been looking at this branch) I notice that I have a copy of the 1880 American census with a question mark about whether the George SYKES (with Jane and daughter Emma) are "mine". It looks as though I haven't followed it up yet, or maybe I couldn't find any shipping/migration records (I can't quite remember), but it certainly sounds likely.
As you can see from this thread, I'm still a bit unclear about the parents: Thomas and Ann/Elizabeth.
You inspire me to revisit the SYKES line. (The older brother Anthony is my direct ancestor).
Let me know if there is any information I can help you with. ;D
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Maddy52:
Thanks for the prompt response.
Here's what I knew before doing my recent online research:
George Sykes b. 1828 and Jane came to Janesville, Wisconsin, USA in 1854, on the Emerald Isle. They brought little Emma with them.
Brother James Sykes b. 1825 and Elizabeth (Poole) came to the same place perhaps a year or two later. They brought little Rebecca with them. James named sons Henry William b. 1859 and John b. 1856.
Armed with the Cambridgeshire clue (I had thought the Sykeses were probably from Yorkshire), I learned that George and Jane were married at Ely on October 20, 1852. A James Sykes and Elizabeth Poole were married at Ely in 1849.
Intriguing fact: One son of James, Harvey, b. 1874, has the middle name Moore. Might that be a clue to a surname of Ann/Elizabeth, married to Thomas? Or to the surname of the mother of Elizabeth Poole, whose parents appear to be Issac and Mary (?) Poole of Witcham.
Lots of Sykeses and Pooles around Witcham, even today.
I hope this helps. Thanks for getting back to me.
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That all makes sense and fills in some gaps for me about what happened to the brothers.
Yes I agree, George married Jane GADSBY in 1852 and they had Emma in 1853. (George was with his sister Lucy and her 2nd husband Adam BARKER and family in 1851 census.)
And James married Elizabeth POOLE in 1849 and had Rebekah (spelling according to the GRO) in 1852 (Elizabeth's maiden name recorded as POOL). James and Elizabeth are in Witcham in the 1851, although it has Elizabeth's place of birth as Coveney.
Interesting about the name MOORE - will do some looking around.
Now that I know to look in USA records I can see quite a few for James and George and their families. ;D
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Btw, I suspect Isaac POOLE married Mary HAWES in Witcham 26 November 1821, so don't think the MOORE connection is from Elizabeth's parents.
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Maddys52:
This is very helpful. There has been much disarray in the Public Trees on Ancestry.com about the parentage of James and George. I am so pleased to have found the Witcham, Ely, Cambridgeshire connection, helpfully confirmed by you. A five-year mystery is solved.
Funny co-incidence: James' grandson, my GG, married a BARKER in the early 1900s. But these Barkers (James Barker, grandson of a Lord Mayor of London) came over in 1636, so any connection to the Barker you mention is very, very distant. But your comment made me wonder about a pre-existing connection -- for just a moment.
As you probably know, many Sykeses in the U.S. trace back to 17th century crossings that landed either in Massachusetts or Virginia. Many Sykeses, especially in the south, have ancestors who were slaves and are black. George was drafted to fight in the Civil War for the Union.
George and James died in Janesville, Wisconsin, each living long lives. George and Jane had four children, and James and Elizabeth had five or six. They seemingly did quite well here. (Janesville is where the Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, Paul Ryan, is from. He says his family goes back five generations there; so does mine, so the families probably knew each other.) My GG, James's grandson, was a Wisconsin state legislator for 20 years. George had a son, Herbert, who became a MD or pharmacist, and did very well in corporate America. One died of malaria while building the Panama Canal. Dora Sykes graduated from the University of Wisconsin in the early 1900s -- very unusual for a woman.
Quite fascinating.
My branch moved away from Janesville in 1910, so we have lost touch with that family. Some moved to the American west in the latter part of the 1800s.
Again, thanks.
tdsykes
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Maddys52:
By the way, are you related to the Rt. Rev. Stephen Whitefield Sykes? He was at Ely, and died in 2014.
tdsykes
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That is all so interesting, thank you td, so great to know what happened to the brothers and their families.
I'm not related to the Rt. Rev. Stephen Whitefield Sykes as far as I know ... Wikipedia tells me he was born in Bristol, but you never know!
I'm a descendant of Anthony Sykes (ag lab) whose only claim to fame that I've seen was sadly in the papers for ill treating his wife Martha and throwing a stick at her in 1861. :o Their daughter Mary Ann (who married Richard Luke SUTTON of Blackmore, Essex) was my gg grandmother, who came to Australia in 1913. There's a photo of her here, probably from the 1890s. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728386.msg5729218#msg5729218
Their grandaughter Gladys (my grandmother) is my avatar (aged about 19 at Bondi Beach).
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Thank you, Maddys 52. It's been fun and helpful. Yes, that Avatar is really cool. I have nothing like that!
tdsykes
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Hi
The Camdex ref for George's & Jane wedding cert is Camdex 332/C-WITM1/71
Emma's birth cert is Camdex 332/B-SUT6/29
Cheers Alan
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Thanks for the references Alan. I have sometimes used the Camdex search facility but have never ordered certificates through them (as they are a bit more expensive than the GRO). ;)
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Hi All
I'm also trying to find out about Thomas and Elizabeth , Anthony was my my ggg grandfather . I to cannot work out the if the two wives of Thomas are different people or 1 and the same ? There does seem to be quite a strong link to Willingham through the ages , my grandmother was a Few also from Willingham , has anyone found out anymore about Thomas and Elizabeth ?
Regarding James and George they would be my gggg uncles .
If anyone is still researching this it would be good to share any information .
Thanks Mark
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Hello Mark and welcome to roots chat! Good to "meet" another cousin.
Unfortunately I'm still at the same point in my research about Thomas and Elizabeth/Ann. I'm away from my computer for a few days, but would be happy to share any information when I get back. :)
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Hi Maddys52
Thanks for the reply , as I said before I believe Anne and Elizabeth to be the same person although no proof but the marriage of Thomas and Ann Cann in Willingham father Anthony , my grandmother was a Few who also came from Willingham ! I am descended through Anthony's son Alfred .
i was wondering if you've had your dna done as mine came back as 3% indigenous American ? How this happened I've no idea , I'm having a paternal test done to see which side of my family it originates from ! There does seem to be a strong military theme that runs through the Sykes family having had relatives in the army through the 1800's and beyond perhaps an ancestor served in the America's during the 1700's ?
Sorry , not adding much to the Thomas and Anne /Elizabeth mystery but will keep digging.
All the best Mark
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Re Elizabeth Poole Witcham Coveney married James Sykes 18 May 1848.
I think there are 3 Elizabeths.
Elizabeth Poole 25 Dec 1831 dau John & Mary Poole
Elizabeth Poole 2 Nov 1828 dau Isaac & Mary Poole. (Hawes)
and
Elizabeth Poole fully bapt 30 Mar 1834 but born 1831 Coveney of John & Sophia. (Sanders)
aged exact 10 in 1841 with John and Sophia. freereg
This John and Isaac were brothers. Sons of John Poole and Mary Freeman
I suspect Elizabeth dau of John and Sophia is your Elizabeth.
This Elizabeth is the sister of my G Grand Mother Lettice Poole (Letia or Letitia etc)
who married Robert SLOTE
Let me know what you think.
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Hi Fenboy , James who married Elizabeth Poole is the brother of Anthony Sykes who is my ggg grandfather we are searching for their father Thomas and his wife Elizabeth/Ann both born in the late 1700's . This is as far back as I can go with the Sykes name , where was Thomas from ? And is Elizabeth and Ann the same person ?
Thanks for the reply Mark
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Hi Mark I think Thomas Sykes 29 Sep 1790 Fa Robert Mo Rebecca Elsworth
married Ann Cann 27 Feb 1816....Ann of Willingham
Anthony son of Thomas and Elizabeth 23 Aug 1818
Lucy dau Thomas and Elizabeth 30 Sep 1821 .
Thomas son Thomas and Elizabeth 13 Jun 1824
James son Thomas and ANN 25 Jun 1827
George T & A 1829
William T & A 1831
Henry T & A 1834
John T & A 1836
The 1841 shows them all with T & A ( Anthony now with the Slacks in Soham)
So Ann Cann is also Elizabeth or (Thomas married Ann Cann who died and Thomas married Elizabeth who died and he married another Ann!)
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A bit more on Ann Sykes: By 1851 census Thomas has died and Ann has married Philip Papworth at Witcham.
John Sykes, son of T & A is present as son in law aged 13 born Witcham. Ann is born Willingham aged 54. George 23 is with Adam Barker and Elizabeth Hitch. Henry is a lodger in Witcham.
Now Ann Catherine Cann could be 16 Jan 1797 Willingham mother Rebecca Cann. No father but..
When Ann married Philip Papworth 10 July 1849 she is a Widow born Willingham and father stated as Anthony CATTON. Witnesses Thomas Poole and Elizabeth Hitch.
Willingham is 9 miles from Witcham.
Thomas Sykes died at Witcham 25 Jan 1846 aged 51. So born c. 1795.
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So I think Thomas Sykes was:
Born c 1795 Witcham
Baptism 29 Sep 1799 at Elsworth Father Robert Mother Rebecca -late baptism?
Elsworth is about 13 miles from Witcham
Died Witcham 25 Jan 1846.
Ann remarried Philip Papworth 10 Jul 1849
1851 census Thomas is dead and his son John 13 is living with mother Ann Papworth.
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Hello Fenboy and Mark, I've had the terrible 2107 flu so haven't been at my computer for a while. Feeling better now, so catching up on rootschat!
It's been a while since I've looked at this family, but agree with you Fenboy about what happens after Thomas SYKES died and Ann marrying Philip PAPWORTH. Still not convinced about Thomas being the son of Robert SYKES of Elsworth though, (see reply #1 on this thread).
I always had a suspicion that Levett COLLIN (born c1801 Mepal) is somehow related to this family. He appears in the censuses and is easy to follow with his wife Mary (mis-noted as "Jane" in the 1851 census). I think Levett COLLIN married Mary TAYLOR 31 July 1825 in Stretham. At various times they have nephew Levett Collin SYKES (born Sep qtr Ely to William SYKES and Elizabeth BROWN) and niece Mary Elizabeth SYKES (born Jun qtr 1854 to William SYKES and ElLizabeth BROWN) with them. William SYKES is brother to Anthony SYKES and son of Thomas and Ann. Whilst I still have no proof, I'm pretty convinced that Ann CATTON is a mis-transcription/mis-hearing of Ann COLLIN, and is probably sister of Levett COLLIN.
Still doesn't help with the Elizabeth/Ann mystery, but I live in hope that something will turn up one day. ;)
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Sorry ... I have so many notes about this family and I keep going round in circles. Reading my notes further, I think I changed my mind about the Levett COLLIN connection - and decided he is quite likely related to the Elizabeth BROWN who married William SYKES, though again I can't find the proof. Elizabeth appears with Levett and Mary COLLIN in the 1841 and 1851 census as "niece", so I think it's probably more likely her children Levett Collin SYKES and Mary Elizabeth SYKES are related to Levett COLLIN through her. (Or possibly to both?) Hope that makes sense.
Any other contributions most welcome!
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There was also this marriage which I thought was interesting:
Anthony CATTON (wid) of Willingham married Elizabeth SOMERLIN (wid) of Holywell on 25 December 1784 at St John the BAptist Holywell-cum-Needingworth. Witnesses were Thomas SANSOM and John HULL. Both signed with an "X".
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Hi Maddys52 , Fenboy
I too agree that the parents of Thomas are not Robert and Rebekah from Elsworth as the previous post discusses also was Thomas born in Witcham ? I have no conclusive proof of this (maybe I'm missing something) regarding his death and Anne's second marriage to a Papworth this all fits .
Regarding Levett Collin Sykes he was the son of William Sykes (brother of Anthony ) and Elizabeth Brown from Downham , I would guess and it is only a guess that Elizabeth Browns mothers maiden name was Collin/Collins/Collen , my maternal great grandmother was a Collins from Littleport not that far from Downham or could be Little Downham which is even closer to Witcham , my uncle was Collin Audus because his grandmother my great grandmother was Ellen Collins (lots of different spellings of this name) .
Very interesting the marriage of an Anthony Catton and Elizabeth Somerlin in Hollywell , just across the river from Willingham and the dates fit for Ann/Elizabeth Catton are they her parents? Needs more investigation .
All good stuff thanks Mark , glad your feeling better Maddys52
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Thanks Mark, yes I thought that marriage was interesting too - shame I couldn't find any other records that might relate to either of them. They were both widowed, but can't see any suitable burials for spouses; can't find any baptisms of possible children; can't see a burial for Elizabeth SYKES (SOMERLIN).
You could be right about the Levett COLLIN. I haven't had much luck with Elizabeth BROWN’s parents - on her marriage it says father John BROWN (labourer), but there are a couple of Elizabeth's born around the right time in Downham with father John, and neither of the mother's had maiden name COLLIN. I think I left it in a too hard basket when I did my initial research, maybe time to get back to it!
And no, I don't think I have any records that say Thomas was born in Witcham, his children were baptised there, but he could have come from anywhere - the 1841 census says born in county, ie Cambridgeshire.