RootsChat.Com
Independent Islands => Isle of Man => Topic started by: Brian Francis on Sunday 07 June 15 13:53 BST (UK)
-
My ancestors have IM listed for "where born" in the 1841 census. The transcription lists Ireland, which matches oral family history, but I believe my family originated from Isle of Man.
According to information I've read about the 1841 census, the following abbreviations were used for "Where born": Scotland (S), Ireland (I), and Foreign Parts (F).
Can anyone confirm the meaning of IM in this context?
-
**The "Where Born" column only asked two questions - 1) whether born in same county, and 2) whether born in Scotland, Ireland, or Foreign Parts. Possible answers and abbreviations to question #1 include: Yes (Y), No, (N), or Not Known (NK). For question #2, the following abbreviations were used: Scotland (S), Ireland (I), and Foreign Parts (F).
From :- http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=8978
Regards
Malky
-
look at www.manxnotebook.com/famhist/genealogy/census.htm - the where born question only allowed same county as residence or England, Scot, Ireland or Foreign parts - the county was replaced by Island for Manx census thus IM (or IoM) tho in general this field is left blank on the schedule unless born off Island (+ even then the field is not 100% reliable as the person supplying the info might not know where the person was born) - best check is the 1851 census which asked re Parish if born on IoM
you can check bapts on www.imuseum.im
ETA if you can tell us the name + place maybe someone can help
-
Welcome to rootschat Brian. If any of them are still alive for the 1851, that might clarify. :)
-
The census in question is "Lancashire, Liverpool, Howard Street, District 23". There are 22 double-sided pages. IM is listed in just a few other places. Also listed are I, S and F. I've (hopefully) attached an image.
-
family is prob Joseph Kinley + 2nd wife Jane Gelling m Braddan 18340928
the son Hugh is from 1st marr to Margaret Douglas m Bra 18250615 she probably being buried age 35 Bra 18340522 (tho possibly there is an 1833 burial age 40 at Douglas St Georges that would match) - Hugh bapt Douglas St Matthews 18260327
it might well be worth buying a subscription to newspapers on www.imuseum.im to see if any note of BMD
-
Thank you Frances for this information and for the hint about imuseum. I will do as you suggest and purchase a 1 day subscription.
Brian.
-
there is something strange however - Joseph is an unusual name esp in Kinley family (tho sometimes given as 2nd name eg John Joseph and the Manx custom is generally to use 2nd given name) however I can't find any matching bapt in my records (maybe more joy on imuseum) and also in fam of Joseph + Margt there is an extracted entry for a bapt of Thomas in 1831 at Douglas St Mathews (this was chapel of ease to Braddan in centre of old Douglas - see my website - I have a note I couldn't find bapt this when checking my database against register (it may well be a late reception in congregation referencing an earlier private bapt on this date) - neither can I find bapt for Margt Douglas! - I have no children by Jane Gelling (suspect she may be older than 40) but also where are the 3 younger children by Margt - can't see any burials on Island - have you found family in 1851 when ages were not rounded and often more accurate
-
Marriage:
25 Aug 1850 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Hugh KINLEY - Full Age, Baker, Bachelor, Paul St
Elizabeth ARCHDALE - Minor, Spinster, Paul St
Groom's Father: Joseph Kinley, Baker
Bride's Father: Thomas Archdale, Hatter
Witnesses: Thomas Gordon Archdale; Ann Lloyd
(Source LancsOPC)
CHRISTENINGS;
St Matheus Chapel, Braddan
Parents; Joseph KINLEY/Margaret DOUGLAS
HUGH, 27 March 1826
JOHN, 7 Oct 1832, birth 28 May 1828
THOMAS, 7 Oct 1832, birth 24 June 1831
JOSEPH, 24 December 1833
(Source Familysearch.Org)
Trish :)
-
Thats interesting Frances as Hugh names his 1st Son;
JOHN JOSEPH Kinley, 25 Mar 1853 St Bartholomew, Vauxhall, Lancashire
Others;
ROBERT ARCHDALE, 3 Feb 1856
ELIZABETH, 7 April 1858
MARGARET JANE, 5 Feb 1860
Parents HUGH/ELIZABETH, Father a Baker
(Lancs OPC)
Having trouble finding any of them in 1851
1861 Elizabeth seems to be Widowed;
Thomas Archdale 55
Harriett Archdale 16
Joseph Brooks 31
Robert Martie 26
Elizabeth Lamb 30
Elizabeth Kinley 30
Thomas Kinley 9
Robert Kinley 6
Elizabeth Kinley 3
Margaret Kinley 1
-
Frustrating as I cant find them on Census!
Marriage: 4 May 1877 St Paul, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Robert Archdale Kinley - Full, Fireman, Bachelor, Primrose Hill
Margaret Erlam - Full, Spinster, Fontenoy Street
Groom's Father: Hugh Kinley, Baker
Bride's Father: Peter Erlam, Joiner
Witness: John Ferry Erlam; Elizabeth Erlam
Marriage: 2 Aug 1909 Christ Church, Aughton, Lancashire, England
Thomas Kinley - 56, Wharehouseman, Widower, Aughton
Margaret Sill - 53, Widow, Aughton
Groom's Father: Hugh Kinley, (deceased), Baker
Bride's Father: John King, Gamekeeper
Witness: John Goode; Agnes Goode, (X)
Possible Death Reg;
HUGH Kinley, March 1874, Liverpool, 8b 69, age 47 (birth c 1827)
-
... neither can I find bapt for Margt Douglas! ...
The family tree I am working on has the information posted by Trish (thank you!), and the following for Margaret (my 3rd great grandmother):
Name: Margaret Bell Douglas
Baptism Date: 13 Jul 1807
Baptism Place: Braddan, Isle of Man
Father: James Douglas
Mother: Lettitia Stowel
Biography: Parents: James Douglas & Lettitia Stowel. (MS09073/1/1)
I've used Ancestry for many years and have mined what I can from their records. Since this is hobby (granted an all consuming one) my funds are somewhat limited. Suggestions (such as imuseum.im) as to sources of Isle of Man records are welcome!
Thanks,
Brian.
-
if d/o James + Letitia then the marr should state she was under age but it doesn't only Both of the parish;
Latitia d/o Thomas Stole + Deborah Quayle was bapt Malew 176810028
Deb Stowell als quayle was bur ?Bra 18140318 age 84 - prob bapt Malew 17321114 father john
-
if d/o James + Letitia then the marr should state she was under age but it doesn't only Both of the parish;
Baptized 13-Jul-1807 and married 15-Jun-1825 would make her 17y 11m old at date of marriage. What was full age at that time? Also, when you say "both of the parish", to what record are you referring. I have access to index information only, as in "Married: Joseph Kinley. Groom's marital status: Bachelor. Groom's father: not stated. Bride's marital status: Spinster. Bride's father: not stated. (MS09073/3/3part1)".
Latitia d/o Thomas Stole + Deborah Quayle was bapt Malew 176810028
Deb Stowell als quayle was bur ?Bra 18140318 age 84 - prob bapt Malew 17321114 father john
I've noted the reference to Letitia Stole baptized 28-Oct-1768, but I've not entered this information into my tree (yet). Unfortunately Margaret's marriage record does not list her father, and I generally rely on this type of information or census records when bridging generations. Would newspaper records of marriages typically provide more information?
-
Both of parish = both resided in parish of marriage (Douglas tho in civil parish of Onchan was in ecclesiastical parish of Braddan - just one more Manx thing!) - legal age at marriage was 21 (look up on my website as you are now getting deep into manx records where English rules do NOT apply)
you are only looking at the mormon (they own ancestry etc) reading of the marriage register not the actual register - as is typical with mormons many errors + misunderstanding creep in.
You will not generally find any confirmation of father's name on marriage entries pre 1843
18th cent marriages etc generally need confirmation via wills + land records etc (there are 2000+ marriage contracts)
ETA newspapers pre 1830's generally reported only the stuff important to their subscribers who generally lived in Douglas and Castletown - with few exceptions anything happening more than 5 miles away from these towns might as well be happening on the moon
-
This is great information. What is the link to your website please? Also, how can I get access to the records you are quoting from? Thanks again, Brian.
-
look at my profile but site www.manxnotebook.com
images of the actual pages of registers are starting to appear on ancestry I think as they were filmed about 3 years ago (as I have ready access only 9 miles away via Manx Museum - well worth spending days here! - I don't look at such sites) - currently some of the land records are also being filmed - all manx wills (bar those too fragile + a couple of forgotten bundles ) were microfilmed in 1940s (but have recently been re digitized) - for indices to these wills (some 60,000) see partial index on www.iomfhsoc.im - I have some 20,000+ summaries on my website - there are other websites but if you put a query on http://www.isle-of-man.com/genealogy/messageboard/index.pl Sue will probably give you chapter + verse as the weather being miserable in her part of Oz she seems to be online quite a bit.
-
Hi Brian
Don't forget the free images on Family Search:-
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1784428
Joseph Kinley & Margaret Douglas - Marriage 1825
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-11997-3954-29?cc=1784428
Blue