RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Jardiner on Tuesday 09 June 15 11:58 BST (UK)
-
Hi there.
Recently I found out that my Great Grandmother, Margaret Edgar, who married my Great Grandfather in 1886, in Bessbrook, Ireland could well have been born in Scotland.
Her father was Hamilton Edgar (who worked in the weaving industry) certainly worked in the local mill in Bessbrook. His father was Hugh Edgar ( Hilltown, Dundee).
Hamilton was married twice: 1st wife Ann Jane Geddis who I think was Margaret's mother. 2nd wife was Joan Donaldson and I believe the marriage took place in Dundee.
So! Was Margaret born in Scotland or Ireland ( circa 1860s)? Was Hamilton born in Dundee?
There are no Irish records of where either of them lived prior to her marriage and indeed I am finding it difficult to pinpoint him.
Any help would be great.
MK
-
Did your Margaret marry Michael Alfred King ? if so is this them at John Dillon Street Merchants Quay Dublin ..Margaret's birth year 1863 Wexford Ireland.. there is 1match for a marriage for a Hamilton Edgar spouse surname Donaldson in Angus 1895 on scotlands people but you would need to check out if this is the same person
-
Hi Rosie 17
Thanks for this information.
Yes she did marry Michael Alfred King in January 1886 and to put a spanner in the works their first child was born,and died, in Nov 1886 in Newcastle -upon-Tyne. I next pick the family up a few years later in Belfast where they remained until they died. John Dilton Street,Dublin?? Now that's news. What date was this as I've never heard about this possible connection?
Regards
MK
-
In the 1901 census Ireland down as Maggie King John Dillon Street born Wexford 1862
-
Hi MK
Confused by this 1891 census entry:
Hamilton Edgar 51 Warehouseman b Ireland
Annie Edgar 38 wife b. Ireland
Maggie Edgar 15 daughter Sack Machinist b. Ireland
Mary Kelly 49 visitor b. Ireland
Address: 4 St Roques Lane, Dundee
Have you viewed Margaret's 1886's marriage in Bessbrook to confirm father as Hamilton rather than Hugh, from the names you have?
Monica
-
Thank you both Rosie 17 & MonicaL
First I'll answer Rosie17's posting. It looks like it's not the same Margaret as I have a 1901 census for Belfast and she is clearly listed on it with children of her own.
MonicaL's posting. I'll look at the info you've sent me and try tying it in with what I've got. Her father is listed on the certificate as Hamilton Edgar ( alas it does not state whether dead or alive). The witnesses were a Maggie Edgar ( almost certainly a sister but in last throws of confirming) and James Edgar ( details unknown).
Rgards
MK
-
Witness on the 1886 Minnie rather than Margaret, given you have Margaret wife of Michael Alfred King? Looking at some online details on an a/try tree where they mention witnesses names as a Minnie and a James, both Edgar.
Monica
-
Is this Margaret and family in 1911?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Queen_Victoria_Street/229142/
This matches I think this 1901 entry here I think:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ormeau_Ward/Ballymaconaghy__part_of_/1219848/
Looks like it may not be correct given you mention 1901 and Margaret alone with children in Belfast.
Monica
-
I next pick the family up a few years later in Belfast where they remained until they died. John Dilton Street,Dublin??
Dublin and Belfast...we are in different places aren't we...
The 1901 census that Rosie mentioned earlier was this one (you also mention the specific address but this is in Dublin not Belfast) www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Merchants_Quay/John_Dillon_Street/1304474/
MK, only you can provide the further clues as to which is the right family group for your family line ::)
Monica :)
-
MK, I am going to stop now. Think we need to retrench as I do not think details are right overall and some errors have crept in maybe over time?
From what you have mentioned, Margaret's father Hamilton (from her 1886 marriage). His father Hugh (not sure on the source here). Wives' names for Hamilton (first and second), what is the source?
Aghadowey posted some info on Edgars some time ago on another post here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=511713.0 I saw this, from the link posted by Aghadowey here http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/E/Edgar.htm , that might be of interest:
Hamilton EDGAR/ AGAR. Drumballyroney & Drumgath - a weaver of Lisnisk; son of Hugh Agar (a weaver) ; married Ann Jane Rowan 23 Oct 1857 at Drumballyroney Church of Ireland, witnesses were Thomas McNeilly & James Rowan ; father of Hugh b. 8 Jun 1868 (regd. Rathfriland)
You mentioned earlier that you thought Hamilton's first wife (and likely your Margaret's mother) was an Ann Jane GEDDIS. As you can see from the above link, that Hamilton married an Ann Jane ROWAN. Dates and place would fit better with your Margaret's birth year etc.
Work in progress though for sure ::) ;)
Monica
-
...I know I said last one for now...but just one more ;D
There is an online tree on a subscription to a/try here http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/75182331/person/32312731791
They have Hamilton, son of Hugh and a Margaret Craig, married to Ann Rowan having daughters Margaret 1862 and Minnie 1872 (Minnie left for Canada in later years according to this tree).
Again, as mentioned, work in progress...
Monica
-
Monica I also seen the tree and some things don't match up as you said with the 1891 census just out of curiosity ..I searched for the marriage for Hamilton Edgar he was married 20/7/1895 District of St Clements Dundee
Hamilton Edgar age 56 widower general labourer father Hugh Edgar Linen weaver mother Margaret Craig both deceased ..Married at 36,Hilltown Dundee minister William J Cox ....Spouse Joan Donaldson age 45 widow address 8,Morrison Court Dundee occupation confectioner ..Her father James Campbell engine fitter deceased mother Janet Cathels married to Walter Ley or Key ? shipwright ..Witnesses Archibald McAllister Mary Ann Boyd
The online tree has Hugh and Margaret in Ayrshire ? also Margaret dead in 1880 Pennsylvania ???
-
Hi Rosie
Some of the tree info is speculative (aka wrong ::)) I think.
Interesting what you found from the marriage cert though for Hamilton and his second wife. From the tree linked above - a/try here http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/75182331/person/32312731791 - Minnie, potentially Margaret's sister is showing as having married an Alexander Campbell Donaldson. His mother on the tree showing as Johanna Inches Campbell, previously married to an Alexander Donaldson.
Wondering whether this Johanna is the Joan that married Hamilton in the cert you have? Her son Alexander marrying Minnie Edgar?
This is the 1901 census entry given on the tree for Minnie and Alexander:
Alexander Donaldson 29 Barman Public House b. Dundee
Minnie Donaldson 29 b. Ireland
Robina Donaldson 8 Months b. Dundee
Address: 227 Hawkhill, Liff and Benvie, Angus
Monica
-
Minnie married Alexander Donaldson last day of the year in 1894. His parents as we have mentioned (Alexander, deceased, and mother Joan Campbell).
Minnie Edgar, aged 22, father Hamilton and mother Ann Jane Geddes (deceased). Her address at the time of the marriage is what you found for Hamilton's marriage, 36 Hilltown.
Confused still...have to go out for a little while so will catch up later :)
Monica
-
Agree about the tree all a bit confusing the only Hugh Edgar I can see is in Ayrshire and a different occupation from the one on the marriage certificate ..Pick this Hugh up in Pennsylvania in the 1881 census occupation miner
You are probably right about Minnie marrying a Donaldson might be worth while checking the family in Canada ? ???
Got to go out myself will check later
-
Monica right with the Joan Campbell connection her son marrying Minnie Edgar ..1891 census for Joan Campbell same address as on her marriage ..Can't find her under the Edgar name but a Joan Donaldson b 1850 Dundee address 39 Wellgate occupation factory worker ?
Joan Inches Campbell b 20/5/1850 Dundee father James Campbell mother Janet Cathels
-
1 match for a Hamilton Edgar died Dundee 1899 so maybe that is Joan on the 1901 census ???
-
Looks like you have found Hamilton's death in 1899, Rosie. Well done ;) Answers some of the questions we have.
That 1891 census we had earlier, which was a puzzle:
Hamilton Edgar 51 Warehouseman b Ireland
Annie Edgar 38 wife b. Ireland
Maggie Edgar 15 daughter Sack Machinist b. Ireland
Mary Kelly 49 visitor b. Ireland
Address: 4 St Roques Lane, Dundee
Two things that confused were the age of Ann, wife, and the fact that there was a Maggie showing as daughter.
Some info to review really at this point. The joy of Scottish certs ::). From Rosie's find, this is Hamilton's death details, listing his three wives. The first two being Ann Janes, Rowan (takes us back to that marriage in Ireland mentioned already in the late 1850s) and Malley, then Joan Campbell/Donaldson. The second Ann Jane Malley (think that is the surname), was actually an Ann Jane Leggatt (from her death reg) so this second wife Annie also on a second marriage when she married Hamilton. Wondering if this explains the 'daughter' Maggie Edgar aged 15 in 1891? Could she be the daughter of Ann Leggatt from her first marriage? The only marriage showing for Hamilton Edgar in Scotland is the one Rosie found in 1895 in Dundee. Looks like the first two, to the Ann Janes, took place in Ireland.
Monica :)
-
MK, going to wait now until you post back.... :)
Monica
-
Think you are right Monica about the Maggie being the daughter of Ann Jane
On the 1901 census there is a Maggie McDonald b 1877 Ireland wife ( no husband in the house )age 24 occupation sack machinist ( same as the Maggie Edgar in 1891 ) living at 28,Penny Cook Lane Dundee
On S P there is a Maggie McLelland marrying a Donald Ferguson Macdonald 1898 St Andrews Dundee...Then another entry Maggie White same spouse same gross number 282/04/0150 ???
-
Thanks MonicaL & rosie17 for all the info which I'm trying to get my head round at the moment. I fear In an attempt to keep things short and to the point I may have given you both a lot of work. Sorry about that!!
Any way I'll tell you what I know so far (confirmed & unconfirmed). Margaret Edgar ( my great grandmother) married Michael Alfred King (my grandfather) in Bessbrook and they've given their address,at time of marriage - Bessbrook, that's it-no street or house number. From this certificate I've worked out she was born circa 1863. They both lived and raised a family in Belfast from around 1889 and she died in Belfast on 04/04/1937.
Recent information has me now confirming that the Minnie on the wedding certificate is Margaret's sister who was born in 1872 (place unknown) married Alexander Campbell Donaldson in 1894, lived in Hilltown Dundee,emigrated to Canada in 1916 and died in 1947. The James on the cert has not been traced.
This same source has confirmed that their father, Hamilton, (unconfirmed birth date as 1839) was married to Ann Jane Geddis and they confirm that she was the mother of Minnie then it is safe to assume she is the mother of Margaret. Hamilton married Joan Donaldson in 1895 (related to Minnie's husband (exact relationship not confirmed).
I also received a posting on another site from an ancestor of an Edgar family from Ireland and after correspondence it has been agreed that they are not the same family.
So! for the moment I'll digest all the info you have given me and hopefully in a few days time I will post you an update.
regards
MK
-
MK
Can I suggest that you stay open minded on the surname of Hamilton Edgar's first wife, the first Ann Jane... Sometimes happens that info on certificates is wrong, surnames etc. A pain when that happens, but it can and did happen :-\ You need to look at all the supporting info. Getting this right will help you confirm the details back to Ireland really.
From the little I have seen so far, big possibility that Hamilton's first wife was indeed Ann Jane Rowan. His death in 1899 that Rosie found earlier states that his first wife was Ann Jane Rowan. I added an image clip with these details earlier. This is from his death registration.
There is supporting info that may help with this such as:
- A likely marriage for Hamilton to Ann Jane Rowan - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGCD-ZJR - this could be followed up further?
- On the death cert for Hamilton in 1899, the second wife's name is correct (Ann Jane Leggat/Malloy who dies after the census in 1891) as is the third wife's name.
Hamilton, from this 1899 death, we have been able to link to Minnie in a number of ways:
- Father's name correct and mother's too, apart from the only time that Geddes is used in Minnie's marriage end of 1894 for her mother's surname.
- Matching address for Minnie and Hamilton at that period of the mid 1890s.
- Likely from what we have that Minnie married her step mother's son, Alexander. Her marriage entry on 1894 certainly confirms this from what I have seen
There are some older posts here on RC on family. I will link them here (not sure if these are yours from old) but will help with further background and any new searches now :):
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=513254.0 - Rosie, this has some details on the Maggie daughter who showed in the 1891 census with Hamilton and second wife Ann Jane
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=513254.0
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=511713.0 - from earlier
Monica
-
Can you post the census links you have for Maggie in Belfast in 1901 and 1911 please?
Monica :)
-
I'm close to cracking the mystery. Hamilton Edgar Married Ann(e) Jane Rowan and her mother was Ann Jane Geddes. And it's to her that many of the known children are born. at some stage she must die ( date and place unknown).
Hamilton Edgar then marries Ann Jane Malloy (nee Legate) in 1886 @ Newry, Co Down. We have no record of children and we assume she also died.
Hamilton then marries Joan Donaldson (nee Campbell) in 1895. and she has a son from previous marriage (Alexander Campbell Donaldson) who marries Minnie Edgar. Daughter of Hamilton.
On three separate documents Hamilton's age ranges from 1839- 1844 so I'm hoping they are the same man.
One loose end in this search is the fact that we assumed that Hamilton was born in Scotland to Hugh and Margaret yet a search of Scotland's people provides no results.
Regards
MK
-
Hi All. A couple of years ago I did some posting for the Edgar family (my Great Grandmother's family) and to be honest I'm now just getting back into it. I've put together all the info you all provided and I'm now a bit closer to sorting it out. It would appear that Hamilton Edgar was born in Rathfriland, Co Down and whilst Great Grandmother was married in Bessbrook it would appear that this was the local church for them whilst they worked at the mill and her marriage is the only event recorded there.
I'm not sure if this question is allowed so here goes. On visiting a website entry for Edgar family I came across an entry for a message board belonging to a well known on-line research provided of which I'm not a member. However 2 entries intrigued me as they threw some light on my research. These entries were posted 17/03/2007 & 06/05/2007 with user names .......2006 & .....153 I'd be surprised if they don't use this site and would like them to make contact to verify their connections
Regards
MK
-
Hi, I’m Minnie Edgar’s great granddaughter. Margaret is definitely Minnie’s sister. Hamilton Edgar definitely married Alexander Donaldson’s mom Joan inches campbell and on their marriage certificate Hamilton’s parents are listed as Hugh and Margaret Edgar nee Craig. I’m dying to find out who James is on Margaret’s wedding certificate. Minnie had 10 live births I have found 9 of them only 5 survived into adulthood. The kids who passed are Joan, Minnie, Minnie (yes two in a row both died as babies) and Helen Gillies. I am trying to find the 10th child. On Minnie’s marriage certificate her mom is listed as Ann Jane Geddes. On Margaret’s is her mom listed? Hope to hear from you.
-
As is always the case, confusion rules. I shall try and answer starting from the bottom up. No! Margaret's mother is not listed on wed cert. Ann Jane Geddis as her mother. This is an error either made by her or the person filling in the document and here is the reason why- Her Mother was Ann Jane Rowan and her mother was Ann Jane Rowan (nee Geddes) On your list of deceased children I have 1 more. Nellie DOD unknown and Hanna Mary DOD unknown. One of these 2 must be your Helen Gillies. Regarding James Edgar. Mystery still surrounds this man but I think I closer to finding him. I have found a James Edgar marrying a Susanna McMullan 30/03/1855 at Drumballyroney ( the same area as Hamliton Edgar was born) so this could be his brother. The research continues.
Regards MK
-
Hi Reader1bc.
Have lost direct contact and have loads more info. Please contact via personal E-mail.
MEK
-
Back doing family research and thought I'd update folk on what I've got and to clarify some points. Hamilton Edgar married Ann Jane Rowan (nee Geddes) Then married Ann Jane Malloy (nee Legate). both these marriages took place in Co Down, Ireland. He then married Joan Donaldson (nee Campbell).
in Dundee, Scotland. So what took a man. living in Rural Co Down to Dundee? Speculation: His daughter Minnie (not Maggie) got married the year before so he was there for that. She married Alexander Campbell Donaldson the son of Joan Donaldson who was herself a window at the time.
MEK
-
I can certainly confirm that Edgar's 1st wife was indeed Ann Jane Rowan. ( it was her mother who was Ann Jane Geddis). I've found James Edgar on the death register for Ann Jane Rowan and he's listed as her son. ( She died 21/12/1885 age 52 ). Having visited the local records office and scanned the church records available ( many churches in Northern Ireland hold the records locally and access to these is nigh on impossible). A John Edgar is recorded born 1872 in Meigh, ( this coincidentally is where Margaret Edgar ( Great Grandmother mother )was born, recently discovered . Another coincidence is the birth year of this John Edgar is the same as Minnie. (possible twins). Edgar's exact birthplace is a mystery as researching local records throw up several Hamilton Edgars within the same region.