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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: jai5 on Thursday 11 June 15 00:02 BST (UK)
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Hi I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.
I'm trying to trace John Tyler convict # 12354. He was transported on the Mangels to Port Jackson
then onto Norfolk Island in 1840. Then transported on the Duchess of Richmond to VDL in 1844.
He was granted a conditional pardon in 1849. John Tyler then left VDL on board the Sydney Griffiths bound for London on the 21/12 1850.
I have found quite a few newspaper articles in the British newspapers that say a recently returned convict named John Tyler was caught with another man named William Cauty robbing the London and Westminster bank in 1851. They were convicted and were to be transported. I can't find any mention of where they were to be transported to, but I guess it was to Australia. Would this mean he would have been send to WA? I have looked for his name in what little I can find for WA convicts but can't find anything. Does anyone have any ideas where I can look for anymore information.
Hope someone can help.
Thanks
Jen
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Hi there,
Hi I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.
........
I can't find any mention of where they were to be transported to, but I guess it was to Australia. Would this mean he would have been send to WA? I have looked for his name in what little I can find for WA convicts but can't find anything. Does anyone have any ideas where I can look for anymore information.
If he were transported to Western Australia :
http://www.sro.wa.gov.au/archive-collection/collection/convict-records and
http://www.sro.wa.gov.au/archive-collection/collection/prison-and-gaol-records
Have a scroll through both these live links, and notice the detailed information provided by the Western Australia State Records office. Click on the live links too, there’s further info there.
Also, do not overlook checking through Rootschat’s own WA resources at the following live link
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369921.0
ADD
http://www.fremantleprison.com.au/Pages/Convict.aspx
Cheers, JM
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Hi Jen,
I don't think the two John TYLERs are the same person. There is a huge difference in their ages. The first was aged 33 in 1838 and the second was aged 62 in 1851. A few of the news reports mention how old they were and it is possible that they were just imprisoned in England for the term of their sentence.
The trial records and criminal registers have them recorded as guilty of 'larceny in a dwelling house'. William is 'CAUTY' here but it could be either CAUTY or CANTY in the criminal registers.
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def2-1479-18510707&div=t18510707-1479
Oliver VILE was the bank manager, so that is an odd way of wording the charge. Perhaps bank robbery was such a new thing that they didn't yet have a name for it!
I'm still trying to get my head around how so many convicts with a conditional pardon could be on a ship to London ???
Debra :)
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Debra and JM
I was sort of thinking the same thing about the ages being so out.
I will go through what you both have given me.
Thank you for taking the time to help me.
Jen
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I have had a look and cannot find the original offence of John TYLER for his transportation. What year was the offence?
I have found a John TYLER in London in 1861 census he has a daughter born in 1831 and he is a widower? Was he married when convicted?
Neil
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Hi Neil
He was convicted September 1838 for horse stealing.
Thanks
Jenny
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Hi,
Looks like he stole a pony on 25th September 1838 from Mr Moss of Fakenham in Suffolk and he was arrested trying to sell it at Brand Creek in the Fens. Locked up in the Bury Gaol waiting trial.
Gerry
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Hi Gerry
Can I ask you where you found this information. I had seen that he stole the horse but what I saw didn't have all that information and I would like to have a look at it please.
Thanks
Jenny
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Hi.
The Norfolk Chronicle and Norwich Gazette, Saturday 6th October 1838, page 2, RH column, about half way down starting with "Tuesday night the 25th etc"
Newspaper held by the National Library of Australia.
Gerry
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I am not convinced that the chap on the Mangels into NSW in 1840 was the same chap who returned to England 21 Dec 1850.
Hi I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.
I'm trying to trace John Tyler convict # 12354. He was transported on the Mangels to Port Jackson
then onto Norfolk Island in 1840. Then transported on the Duchess of Richmond to VDL in 1844.
He was granted a conditional pardon in 1849. John Tyler then left VDL on board the Sydney Griffiths bound for London on the 21/12 1850.
John of course is a very popular name, and so too is Tyler. Here's two chaps named John TYLER in Tasmania in 1867, and both were victims of crime in the first quarter of that year. Quite possible that either of those chaps could be candidates for the chap granted a conditional pardon 1849.
Tasmania Report of Crime, &c &c &c (Police Gazette :D )
Vol VI Friday March 15, 1867. No. 311
Page 42
Port Sorell
Stolen about the 23rd ultimo, from the Marsh Paddock, Kentish : 1 strawberry coloured steer, JT on near rump, lame in one fore foot, in good condition, the property of Mr John Tyler.
Vol VI Friday March 29, 1867, No. 313
Page 50
Stolen on the 18th instant, from the dwelling house of John Tyler, Exton : 12 £1 notes and 20 half sovereigns. The man as under described is charged (no Warrant) with the offence …….
Cheers, JM
(Red Post, Well found Gerry :) )
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There’s also the following John TYLER in VDL that also received a Conditional Pardon in the late 1840s, and he was tried at Suffolk, in April 1842. His sentence was 10 years, and his CP was granted “has completed 7 of a 10 years sentence without offence”.
So we need to sort out the various John TYLER chaps in Tas in the late 1840s ;D
Cheers, JM
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Gerry
Thanks for that.
JM
John Tyler arrived into Port Jackson on the Mangels in 1840 then went to Norfolk Island, then onto VDL on the Duchess of Richmond in 1844. He was the man who traveled back to London via the Sydney Griffiths. The passenger list for the Sydney Griffiths says that he was brought to VDL aboard the Duchess of Richmond 1844. So I am sure this is the same man. If he was transported back to VDL from London one of the two in TAS in 1867 could be him, who knows?
Thank you for all your help everyone.
Jen
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John TYLER, on the Moffatt 1842. Tied Suffolk April 1842, 10 years
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON33-1-32,403,346,F,60
CP in 1849
Free Certificate 12 . 11. 52 (I assume 12th November 1852)
John TYLER on the D of Richmond 1844 tried Suffolk Sept 1838 , 15 years.
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON33-1-52,207,178,F,60
CP Application 30 January 1849
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/65575997 The Cornwall Chronicle 14 Dec 1850
Passengers per Sydney Griffiths,
for London.
Mrs. Cowtan. Steerage— Jeremiah Taylor.
For Port Fairy. —
Miss. Coulson, Mr. John Griffiths; and 94 in the steerage.
I am still not convinced that John Tyler went to London on the Sydney Griffiths in December 1850
ADD (same paragraph from that cutting, took a moment longer to type up)
Dec.14.— Sydney Griffiths, (barque) 808 tons,
John Cowtan master, for London, via Port Fairy James Flexmore agent.
For London — 120 tons bark, 7500 treenails, 1000 staves, 2 tons of old iron, John Griffiths.
For Port Fairy — 12,000 staves, 20000 paling, 10,000 shingles, 9000 laths, 3000 ft. sawn timber, 60 deals, 4000 feet pine, John Griffiths ;
2 bales canvas, 1 bale twine, 3 ploughs, 1 dray, 112 rams, John Cowtan ;
2 bales wool packs, 1 case, (meat safe), R. De Little ;
6 packages apparel, C. J. Weedon.
Cheers, JM
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The other John Tyler also of Suffolk
At the Suffolk Sessions at Bury on 12th April 1842 William Long, Isaac Tyler and John Tyler all labourers of Brent Eleigh pleaded guilty to stealing and all three were sentenced to 10 years transportation.
Gerry
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Hi Gerry
What started me on this search was when I found this notice in the Hobarton Guardian 30 March, 1853.
Should this meet the eye of JOHN
TYLER who was convicted at Bury
St. Edmunds, in 1838, his wife MARY
ANN TYLER and his SON, Charles
Tyler, has arrived at Hobart Town by
the ship Australasia, and is living at
John Goddard's, bottom of Macquarie
street, near the Phoenix Hotel.
So it is the John Tyler from the Mangles convict #12354 that I'm interested in.
Hi JM
I'm not very experienced at this computer thingy. The passenger list for the Sydney Griffiths is on the John Tyler departure 1850 linctas POL220/1/1 Page 307.
Thank you for your kind input
Jen
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Strange that he would leave VDL as Free Passage was granted on 28/12/1849 for his wife & son to join him.
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Hi Merlin
That's what I thought too. It's very strange.
Thanks
Jen
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Do you know what happened to his wife & son?
You obviously have a connection to the family in some way :-\
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Good find, Gerry
"Tuesday night the 25th ult, a pony was stolen from the stable of Mr Moss of Fakenham in Suffolk, who immediately made application to Mr Nixon, Chief Constable of Thetford, who lost no time in taking a circuitous route, in order top apprehend the offender, and succeeded in capturing a man who was offering a pony for sale at a place called Brand Creek, in the Fens, who gave his name as John Tyler, and has since been committed by John Wright and L S Bidwell Esqrs, to Bury Gaol for trial."
This looks to be the conviction of this man:
John TYLER, 35, (b abt 1803)
Trial: 23 Oct 1838, Suffolk, England
Sentence: Transportation, 15 years
I cannot see an account of the trial but there is this snippet from
The Bury & Norwich Post, & East Anglian: Or, Suffolk, Norfolk, Essex, Cambridge, and Ely Intelligencer (Bury Saint Edmunds, England), Wednesday, November 28, 1838
"On Wednesday last four male convicts were removed from our Gaol to the Leviathan Hulk at Portsmouth, namely John Tyler, Charles Gridley and Wm Aust to be transported for 15 years and Thomas Cole for 10 years."
Judith
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Hi Merlin
I believe the son of John and Mary Ann Tyler, Charles may have been my gg grandfather.
My great grandfather was Charles Samuel Tyler.
Hi Judith
Thank you for that.
Many thanks everyone
Jen
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And here he is on the Hulk Leviathan at Portsmouth
John Tyler, 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1814
Date Received: 23 Nov 1838
Convicted: Bury, 23 October 1838 - Suffolk quarter Sessions
He is married with 2 children, cannot read or write, occupation: sweep, character: bad
Sent to NSW 15 November 1839
Age is wrong in this record.
And, as already found he is transported on the Mangles
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Thanks Judith
Jen
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The passenger list for the Sydney Griffiths is on the John Tyler departure 1850 linctas POL220/1/1 Page 307.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fgd/
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/65575997 The Cornwall Chronicle 14 Dec 1850
Passengers per Sydney Griffiths,
for London.
Mrs. Cowtan. Steerage— Jeremiah Taylor.
For Port Fairy. —
Miss. Coulson, Mr. John Griffiths; and 94 in the steerage.
I am still not convinced that John Tyler went to London on the Sydney Griffiths in December 1850
On that voyage of the Sydney Griffiths, a voyage to London, via Port Fairy, that John Tyler was one of those in the steerage 'for Port Fairy" as there were two passengers for London who embarked in Tasmania (Mrs Cowtan (wife of the ship's captain) and Jeremiah Taylor (who travelled steerage).
So that John Tyler should be found in the colony of Victoria in 1851 :), not in England.
Cheers, JM
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Could I ask nicely that possibly we could have some information on your GRANDFATHER His DoB name and where born and then go back from there. With so many persons named as John TYLER some transportees it is easy to make mistakes. Possibly with a fresh look more information as to exactly who and from where your grandfathers parents came from.
QUOTE
"I believe the son of John and Mary Ann Tyler, Charles may have been my gg grandfather"
Neil ;)
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I believe the son of John and Mary Ann Tyler, Charles may have been my gg grandfather.
My great grandfather was Charles Samuel Tyler.
So, is your family in TASSIE?
Marriage:
Charles Fullen TAYLOR 23yrs m. Eliza BAKER 19yrs 23/3/1859 HOBART #110/1859 RGD 37
One of the witnesses is John TAYLOR.
http://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD37-1-18p67j2k
Birth:
Charles Samuel TYLER b. 03/08/1859 NEW NORFOLK #1643/1860 RGD 33
Father: Charles
Mother: Eliza BAKER
Father's occupation is a Seaman & Informant was grandmother Elizabeth BAKER.
http://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-38p773j2k
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I'm still trying to get my head around how so many convicts with a conditional pardon could be on a ship to London ???
Debra :)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/65575997 The Cornwall Chronicle 14 Dec 1850
Passengers per Sydney Griffiths,
for London.
Mrs. Cowtan. Steerage— Jeremiah Taylor.
For Port Fairy. —
Miss. Coulson, Mr. John Griffiths; and 94 in the steerage.
I am still not convinced that John Tyler went to London on the Sydney Griffiths in December 1850
Cheers, JM
Thanks for that JM, it was bothering me but I didn't have time today to look in any detail.
Debra :)
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Thanks everyone for your help.
I'm going to be busy for a few days and when i get some time will look up some of the paperwork I
have.
Thanks again
Jen
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Hi Everyone
I've gone over what I have been given on here and I'm so pleased that I come to Rootschat for advise.
You people have stopped me from getting too far ahead of myself.
My computer was playing up when I was trying to look at the Sydney Griffiths link re passengers in steerage going to Port Fairy, so I now see what you mean JM. That makes more sense as I doubt he would have been able to afford a fare to London.
Merlin reminded me about John (Taylor) Tyler being a witness to Charles Fullen Taylor (Tyler) and Eliza Baker's marriage. (I have a copy of this cert and had forgotten all about it, I purchased it a few years ago). So that points to JT being in Tasmania in 1859.
I am learning things all the time on here. I love Rootschat.
Thank you to everyone.
Jen
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It doesn't help much but today I saw and index only called the "Tasmanian Colonial Index" and it mentions a John Tyler, Norfolk Island, Mangles (8), New Experimental Prisoner. P3-5, Sect 335-6, FM 22, Film, CY 368.
Gerry
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It doesn't help much but today I saw and index only called the "Tasmanian Colonial Index" and it mentions a John Tyler, Norfolk Island, Mangles (8), New Experimental Prisoner. P3-5, Sect 335-6, FM 22, Film, CY 368.
Gerry, search under Alexander MACONOCHIE for information on New Experimental Prisoner.
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Thank Merlin, I will have a look. The 'cool' face I inserted in my post reference Mangles was an error some how it was supposed to read Mangles 8.
Gerry
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Hi Gerry and Merlin
Can you please tell me where to find this.
I have looked up "Tasmanian Colonial Index" but I can't find anything.
Thanks
Jen
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I am fairly sure that the "Tasmanian Colonial Index" is the one prepared in the late 1990s by the Kiama Family History Group.
Add, Yes, Mr Google seems to be confirming my thoughts.
If it is the Kiama one, then it is a well recognised index resource.
http://library.lakemac.com.au/downloads/Tasmanian%20Resources.pdf
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/22892218?selectedversion=NBD13179501
https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=732310&disp=Tasmanian+colonial+index
https://yprl.bibliocommons.com/item/show/251619027_tasmanian_colonial_index
http://www.slq.qld.gov.au/resources/family-history/convicts-research
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-Tasmania/2005-02/1108285942
Gerry has quoted the index references.
One of those links has the contact details for the Kiama group, and you will likely need to send a nominal amount to the group for them to provide you with the details that the index points to.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks very much JM
Will give them a try.
Jen
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Hi Gerry and Merlin
Can you please tell me where to find this. I have looked up "Tasmanian Colonial Index" but I can't find anything.
I have the above resource & to clarify what the index shows:
TYLER John
Year = 1844
Place = Norfolk Island
Ship = Mangles [8]
Category = New Experimental System 2
Status = Prisoner
Reel = P3-5
Section = 335-6
Frame = 22
Film = CY 368
*The microfilm CY 368 is held at the Mitchell Library, Sydney.
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This may have nothing or all to do with YOUR John TYLER, but...!!
Shipping to Hobart 1842.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~austashs/convicts/conships_m.htm
Scroll down to MOFFAT (3).
The following has a researcher also with John TYLER as their person of interest convict.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~austashs/convicts/con_t.htm
Neil
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Hi Merlin
Thank you for index information.
Hi Neil
Thank you. I don't think this is my John Tyler as he went to Tas from Norfolk Island aboard the Duchess of Richmond.
Many thanks to you both
Jen
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I am related to a John Tyler who was pardoned in 1848 who married and remained in Tasmania. He married Bridget Halpen. He was transported with his brother Isaac in 1844. Barb