RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dunbartonshire => Topic started by: NZpaterson on Thursday 11 June 15 10:02 BST (UK)
-
Can anyone please tell me about this residence of our family who live there in 1881
Robert and Ann(need Wallace) Paterson and their children live at 'The Cottage Clyde Bank' - Where was this? Dumbarton road?
Jane Paterson c1885
Samuel Paterson c1869
James Paterson c 1872
John Paterson DOB 03 Oct 1874 (our family link as John aka Jack Paterson moved to New Zealand)
Lillias Paterson c1880
Robert Paterson c1867
We are looking for any links, relations, links to staff, information about 'the cottage' is it still standing?
They had 4 servants recorded as living there... Annie Smillie DOB c1880, Isebella Lamont DOB c1857, Thomas Stewart DOB c1847, Robt McGibon DOB c1856
:)
your help would be greatly appreciated.
-
Clyde Cottage was located on the north bank of the R. Clyde, immediately to the west of the Yoker/Renfrew Ferry.
It would appear to have been a reasonably sized building, which disappeared from the 1913 Ordnance Survey plan of that date. It is however shown on an earlier OS plan dated 1859. See attached ref (http://maps.nls.uk/view/74478366)
The is likely that the property was demolished to make way for the Yoker Power Station, which is shown on the 1913 plan.
Regards
Istrice
-
Istrice,
Thank you so very much! This is a fantastic finding for us.
Now to keep searching as there must be some other Paterson relations there somewhere who we look forward to finding.
kia ora!
Shirlene Paterson
-
Hi both,
A little more background here:-
1872 Post Office Directory
Clyde Bank Cottage, Yoker, Glasgow: Charles Duncan
Barns of Clyde East, Yoker, Glasgow: W Brock
Barns of Clyde West, Yoker, Glasgow: R Paterson
http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=87052442&mode=transcription
Background on the Duncan family & Clyde Bank Cottage here:
http://campbeltownduncans.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/charles-duncan-1800-1876.html
brigau
-
Dear Brigau,
Thank you so much!!!
You are all so very helpful. I hope to have some places of interest or even better still some long lost cousins for my sister in law (a Paterson) to visit or meet on her travels in September/October this year. You are all making this more likely. She had visited Glasgow many years ago and went to what she believed to be a Paterson property which had been bought by some Americans. But She doesn't know the address so there is a lot of work to do to trace the family's movements now. I look forward to planning our own journey to this beautiful country. Thanks again.
New Zealand Patersons
Mark and Shirlene
-
I am a little confused !!
Paterson is mentioned at Barns O'Clyde West which was another mile west of the site at Yoker.
The Cottage, Clydebank (which I believe would be Clydebank, Dunbartonshire) may not be the Clydebank Cottage, Yoker which then would be part of Renfrewshire and is now part of Glasgow.
I haven't seen any of the relevant census returns so have no idea exactly where Paterson appears in 1871 or 1881.
Am I muddying the waters ??
jcmac.
-
Thank you for muddying the waters because we do wish for a clear picture of their movements and where they lived. Also... I need to ensure I am following the right Paterson line. Which brings me back to where I read about the cottage... and it clearly states Dumbarton road???
I am pleased you are interested in this puzzle. Any guidance would be wonderful Cheers.
1881 census says
"The cottage Clyde Back, Dumbarton Road, Old Kilpatrick, West or Old Kilpatrick, Dunbartonshire, Scotland".
First name(s) Robert
Last name Paterson
Relationship Head
Marital status Married
Gender Male
Age 53
Birth year 1828
Occupation Farm 100 Arable Acres 3 Men & 2 Women
Birth town Stone House
Birth town as transcribed STONE HOUSE
Birth county Lanarkshire
Birth county as transcribed LANARKSHIRE
Birth place Scotland
House name The Cottage Clyde Bank
Street Dumbarton Road
Town -
Parish Old Kilpatrick
County Dunbartonshire
Country Scotland
Registration district West or Old Kilpatrick
Archive reference RG11
Robert Paterson Head Married Male 53 1828 Farm 100 Arable Acres 3 Men & 2 Women Stone House, Lanarkshire, Scotland Transcription
Ann Paterson Wife Married Female 43 1838 - Renfrewshire, Scotland Transcription
Jane Paterson Daughter Unmarried Female 16 1865 School Dunbartonshire, Scotland Transcription
Samuel Paterson Son - Male 12 1869 School Dunbartonshire, Scotland Transcription
James Paterson Son - Male 9 1872 School Dunbartonshire, Scotland Transcription
John Paterson Son - Male 6 1875 School Dunbartonshire, Scotland Transcription
Lillias Paterson - - Female 1 1880 - Dunbartonshire, Scotland Transcription
Annie Smillie Servant Unmarried Female 21 1860 Dairy Servant Port Glasgow, Renfrewshire, Scotland Transcription
Isebella Lamont Servant Unmarried Female 24 1857 Dairy Maid Bunessan, Argyllshire, Scotland Transcription
Thomas Stewart Servant Unmarried Male 34 1847 Farm Servant Dunbartonshire, Scotland Transcription
Robt McGibon Servant Unmarried Male 25 1856 Farm Servant Renfrewshire, Scotland Transcription
Robert Paterson Son Unmarried Male 14 1867 Schollar Dunbartonshire, Scotland Transcription
-
Was I allowed to past all that information on there??? hope I can delete if not allowed??
-
Hello NZp,
I do not have access to the various census records.
My knowledge of the area comes from living in this part of Glasgow/Dunbartonshire.
The old road network west out of Glasgow, north of and close to the Clyde, had various names as it went west:- Dumbarton Road, Yoker Road, Glasgow Road with the first and last being used for various stretches all the way to Dumbarton. Dumbarton Road could be several parts of that route over a 15 mile stretch. Over the years part of this area changed from Govan Parish, Renfrew Parish (both south of the river) to become parts of Glasgow and Dunbartonshire (north of the river).
If you are able to access the part of the census which details the boundery of the enumerator's area covered in 1871 and 1881 it would make it easier to locate the property and discount other locations.
My feeling is that your address was further west.
jcmac.
-
NZp,
Nipped down to local library and looked at 1871 & 1881 census for Old (west) Kilpatrick 501.
1871 Enumerator 6 :-
"So much of the Parish of Old Kilpatrick as lies between East and West Balquhanran's and Yoker Burn the Eastern boundary of the Parish comprising Brick House, Whitecrook Chemical Works Gate Keeper's House East and West Kilbowie, Braidfield, Nappers, Cleddans, Collier Row, Cohabi....? and Chapelyard".
The microfilm was not easy to read so the puntuation was difficult to note.
Schedule 1 - Balquhanran Farm
2 - Stoneylane ?
3 - "
4 - Canalbank
5 - "
6 - Brickhouse Farm
7 - Canal House Yoker !!??
8 - Barns of Clyde (Rob't Paterson farmer of 90 acres)
9 - Ash Villa
10 - Village of Yoker (East Barns of Clyde)
1881 Enumerator 7 :-
" So much of the Quoad Sacra Parish of St.James, Clydebank, part of the Parish and School Board District of Old Kilpatrick, as lies between the west end of Clydebank Terrace and the Cottage, including the Shipyard, the whole south side of Clydebank Village, Sleeping Bothies, Canal Manager's House, West Barns of Clyde Farm and ending with Clydebank Cottage".
Schedule 1 - The Cottage, Clydebank, Dumbarton Road
2 - " " " (Rob't Paterson farmer 100acres emp 3men 2women)
3 - Canal Cottage
4 - Dormitor ?
5 - House of Stone ? Clydebank
6 - ClydeBank Terrace No.4
7 - " " "
I am sure that Robert was farming at West Barns of Clyde and probably living in the Farm house.
If you have birth certificate details of any of his children this might confirm the location.
A 6 inch scale map might give clearer details of these locations.
Hope this helps.
jcmac
-
NZp,
A little more on the map links ( http://maps.nls.uk/counties ) and if you choose County Maps of Scotland, Dumbarton/Dunbartonshire (Old Kilpatrick) 6" or 25" 1st.Editition OS maps you will get a feel of how it was in the mid-1800's before shipbuilding and engineering took over.
jcmac.
-
:) :)
jcmac you are a treasure!
I will have a hunt to see if I can find this information. I'm not yet sure how to do this but will go and visit our library to see if the researchers can help. Thank you so much. My Sister in Law did visit a property many years ago which was believed to have been where our Patersons lived. If only she still had this address we would be clear about this. Thank you thank you.
I have had a good look at maps and sure do have a 'feel' of what the land was like back then. Im not sure exactly which map could show 'The cottage' ( or farm house they lived in- but will work on that). Thanks for the links.
-
:) :) :)
jcmac, yes this does help. wow. I hope to figure out these maps now. :) :)
I do have a birth certificate for John Paterson (my husbands grandfather)
Number 218, John Paterson 1874 3rd October 2h a.m.
West Barns of Clyde, Old Kilpatrick
Extracted from the parish of Old Kilpatrick in the county of Dumbarton for the year 1874
It is also a hope that we will over time be able to find cousins as John had brothers, Robert, James, Samuel and sisters, Jane and Lillias. We believe that Samuel and the sisters did not marry. But hope to find more about these other brothers. We think they moved to England and I have some photos which are treasures. I will upload them when I can make their file size small enough.
How fabulous to have help from the expertise of a 'local'. Thank you so much.
-
jcmac
I also see on this map http://maps.nls.uk/view/75498558
Thirdpart. I think this is another farm they worked on :-)
These maps are so helpful! :-)
I have also been given.... Robert & Ann were shown on the 1871 Census as he being an arable farmer and the family living at West Barns of Clyde farm just north of Yoker, west of Glasgow. This farm no longer exists as was ploughed under in the 1950s to make way for the Drumchapel housing development.
-
Some photos to share...
oh bother.. they are still too big to upload. I will try again
-
NZp,
From the census descriptions of 1871 and 1881, the individual (schedule) family locations identified and the 1874 birth location, I am 99.9% certain that they farmed Barns of Clyde West which is clearly marked on the 6" and 25" maps. If you Google Map the location to street view (Cart Street/ Atlas Street, Clydebank area) you will see the modern housing which now covers the area of the farm house and buildings.
Thirdpart Farm and East Barns of Clyde farms would be adjacent to the village of Yoker.
I think Thirdpart Crescent is all that remains in "memory" of the old farm at the present boundary of Glasgow and Clydebank. Yoker Burn still exists and discharges into the R.Clyde but most,if not all, has been piped below ground surface level.
Drumchapel was a new build post-war housing area to replace many of the old tenements across Glasgow and is on the northwest of the city below the Kilpatrick Hills. I would be surprised if any of the 100 acres of BofC West farm reached that far.
I had a quick look at Clydebank Library web site for photographs but didn't see any obvious one for West BofC. You might want to try a search or e-mail to Clydebank Library or Dumbarton Library or even the Mitchell Library Glasgow to see if there is any photographs or postcards of the area from the late 1800's which give a flavour of the location.
jcmac
-
More photos
-
jcmac,
Thank you ever so much!
your local knowledge is a treasure and we appreciate you sharing your time and knowledge with us. We are closer to having an understanding of life and times for our family. :) :) :)
-
NZp,
I came across this reference whilst looking for the physical limits of West Barns of Clyde Farm, which extended to 100 acres, as I do not think that any part (unless detached) would have extended as far as the area of 1950's Drumchapel as several other farms would lie between them.
ElectricScotland: ( http://www.electricscotland.com/history/ryegate/3.htm )
History of Ryegate, Vermont
Chapter 111 (= 3)
Inchinnan - ................ - "Bond of Association" - Names of Subscribers.
NOTE. The "Bond of Association for the Company" was signed by the following persons: ........
....; Robert Brock & John Paterson, farmers at Barns of Clyde; Walter & Matthew Roben, Farmers at Third-part-Miln; Alexander Paterson, farmer in Drumry;........
I noticed Brock's name in another site so I am not clear as to how both were linked to BofC Farm but I did notice that Paterson was specifically linked with West BofC.
****(Just looked back at Br1gau's post and see a Brock mentioned at East Barns of Clyde)****
The 6" map showed Third-part-Miln as close to where present day Thirdpart Crescent is today. Third Part Farm was a short distance further north.
jcmac.
-
Hello NZp,
Your subject heading also referred to Foulmyres Farm but I did not wish to refer to it as it was in county of Lanarkshire which is where I think you may wish to make further enquiries on that Board.
It was indeed east of Strathaven, south of Shawhead Farm and north of Hosenet (Hosenette) Farm.
I see on later OS maps that it is marked as "in ruins".
jcmac
-
NZp,
I tried "Barns of Clyde" in the British Library newspapers archive search and got some 90+ items.
Looked at a few of them and thought these may be of interest:-
Glasgow Herald, Thursday June 18, 1863.
Marriages.
At East Chapleton, New Kilpatrick, on the 16th.instant, by the Rev.Will'm S. Shanks, minister of Maryhill, Robert Paterson, farmer, West Barns of Clyde, to Annie, eldest daughter of Mr.Samuel Wallace, farmer, East Chapleton.
Glasgow Herald, Friday May 15, 1874.
Deaths.
Suddenly, at 76, Grove Street, Cowcaddens, on the 13th.inst, Elizabeth Paterson, relict of John Brock, farmer, late of West Barns of Clyde - Friends please accept of this invitation.
Glasgow Herald, Monday, July 9, 1883.
Marriages.
Paterson - Brock. - At East Barns of Clyde Farm, Yoker, on the 5th.instant, by the Rev.Robert Henderson, MA, BD, Robert Paterson, to Jesee Brock, fourth daughter of the late John Brock.
1 is definite, 3 is probable and 2 a maybe.
jcmac.
-
Hello jcmac,
Yes indeed Foulmyres Farm is in ruins, you can google maps the address and see the remains. This is where Robert Paterson was born.
Yes indeed that is the correct marriage detail for Robert Paterson and Ann Wallace (daughter of Samuel Wallace and Jean Scott). :-)
I don't know of an Elizabeth or of a Brock connection.
I need to sit down and pull all of what we have together.
While we are interested in the journey, lives and people linked with Robert and Ann Paterson the buildings too have been of interest. I guess we just love the old buildings.
My sister in law having visited Glasgow many years ago must have been given an address by the family for her to go there. I wonder if it is somewhere that Robert's son John Paterson had lived in before he moved to New Zealand. (no don't know that address know).
A cousin believes John (aka Jack) Paterson came directly to NZ from 'the Firth of Clyde'. Based on his recall of 'Jack's discussions of home. He owned an agricultural contracting business here in NZ.
I have been unable to find the location of James Paterson, and another brother Robert Paterson (junior). So lots of work to do.
It's so exciting when wee snippets of our family are found.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
-
Hello NZp,
I have located Robert Paterson on transcribed 1841 and 1851 census details -
1841 Foulmire, Stonehouse (Robert included);
1851 Foulmire, Stonehouse (Robert absent) ;
1851 East Chapelton, East (New) Kilpatrick (Robert Paterson 23 Plowman).
He appears to be working for his future father-in-law whose wife is a Paterson from Stonehouse as are others at this address.
Is Robert there because his sister married Samuel Wallace ?
Was Jean Scott a previous wife of Samuel ?
Do you know where Robert was at the 1861 census ?
I was looking at the old newspaper archive again today and picked out some of the Cattle Shows and Ploughing Competitions etc ( @ 1840 -1860) which had Barns of Clyde mentioned and these might be of interest eg (March 1860).....McAulay, servant to Wm. Paterson, Thirdpart, East Kilpatrick;....
and (June 1847).....John Brock (Sen), East Barns of Clyde ; and .....John Brock (Jun), West Barns of Clyde;
Hope some of this still helps !!
jcmac
(Onlymeant to underline transcribed)
-
NZp,
Found answer to my own question -
1841 Park Farm, Eaglesham, Renfrewshire.
Samuel Wallace 30, wife Jean 30, Dau. Ann 3, Dau.Marion 1.
Looks like Jean died and Samuel remarried - possibly Robert's sister ?
jcmac.
-
haha
jcmac,
You are truly amazing.
Yes I have found that Jean died and Samuel remarried. I think from the dates that Robert went to live with them and then he married Ann (his Brother in law's daughter!). Yes Samuel Wallace appears to have married Robert's sister Margaret Paterson.
Robert b. 1827 Foulmires farm
1861 age 34 New Kilpatrick, Dumbartonshire, Scotland. (living with his brother in law)
1863: Married ANN Wallace.
1871 age 44 Old Kilpatrick Dumbartonshire Scotland (head of house)
1872 age 45, Barns of Clyde west, york, Glasgow
1881 age 54, Old Kilpatrick Dumbartonshire Scotland (head of house)
I think this is also true...
1891: Residence
Shephall, Shephall, Hertfordshire 1891 Census. Living at ‘Half Hyde’ an old farm cottage. Still mentioned today. Robert is noted as a farmer employing staff there. Lillias was still a scholar.
1901 — Age: 74 Thorne Farm, Minster, Kent, England. Relation to Head of House: Head. Farmer.
1902 19 Sep — Age: 75 Death Hillholme, North Mymms (sic). Buried with Ann at St Mary's Church Shephall, Stevenage, Hertfordshire.
Aha... Park Farm, Eaglesham, Renfrewshire. Is where Ann Wallace was born.
I'm still wondering who this William Paterson is, a cousin maybe? I think Robert's son John may have moved back from England and lived with him before moving to NZ.
I love how technology enables us to have this speedy communication from so very far away.
Wishing you a wonderful day!
Shirlene Paterson.
-
FYI.
Going back in time... this appears to be our Robert Paterson's (1827), parents and extended family.
http://records.ancestry.com.au/robert_paterson_records.ashx?pid=130310217
I didn't know about the Jean Paterson 1810. An Lillias is spelt 2 different ways. sometimes Lilias. So hope there are not 2 Lillias Hamilton and Robert Patersons who married and have similar DOB and similar childrens' names. Although I wouldn't be surprised.
-
Hello NZp,
Following our PM's I am glad to see you had already broadened your searches to other Boards and I will try to assist on this one.
I am still not clear as to your information source that West BofC, or part of it, was lost below the 1950's Drumchapel Housing Scheme. I am positive that no part of West BofC farm extended as far as even the nearest corner of Drumchapel and in effect you would be "looking in the wrong place".
As the R.Clyde first flows north to Glasgow it then runs in a general direction to the west. It would pass Yoker, East BofC and West BofC in that order. Directly north of Yoker would be Thirdpart Miln then further north Thirdpart Farm. All of the Drumchapel Housing Scheme is further north of Thirdpart Farm across the Forth and Clyde Canal and above present day Great Western Road which is the "high road" west out of Glasgow eventually becoming Stirling Road in Dumbarton some 8 miles away.
100 acres of West BofC would not reach any part of Drumchapel.
To the east of and bordering Drumchapel is Bearsden in which was East Chapelton Farm near the corner of present day Milngavie Road and Boclair Road.
From West Barns of Clyde Farm to East Chapelton Farm would be @ 4-5 miles as the crow flies.
The Wikipedia entry for "Old Drumchapel" (which still exists) gives a good idea of the area and location in the past.
Have you seen the 1851 census for East (New) Kilpatrick 500 En'r 8 page 11 sched.35 for Thirdpart Farmhouse - as transcribed - which shows a Lillias Paterson widow as Head of the house, her M-in-L aged 92, and her family including a dau. Lillias.
The 1841 census - as transcribed - for Thirdpart Mill shows Lillias there with M-in-L and children but I think the transcription doesn't look quite right - more than one household combined ??
My first post on 27/6 included a death report (13.5.1874) for Elizabeth Paterson or Brock and she appears aged 27 at West BofC in the 1851 census.
I know it's easy to overload with too much information coming from all directions. However, the first name Lillias is quite coincidental and might provide a link.
Regards,
jcmac
-
Hello jcmac
This sure is more productive having someone to 'puzzle over' the who is and who isnt's. CHEERS.
Lillias sure is a common name and even almost came down to my husbands aunty whose middle name is Lillian. A name that does appear all the way through the family line.
If I have the correct parents for Robert Paterson (1827) who married Ann Wallace. Then Robert Paterson (1782) married Lillias Hamilton and they had
James Paterson
1807 –
Agnes Paterson
1812 –
Lillias Paterson
1814 –
Margaret Paterson
1817 – 1889
Ann Paterson
1824 –
Robert Paterson
1827 – 1902
So I am lost as to how Elizabeth Paterson or Brock fits into the picture. Although I'm sure if we go back a generation they will.
No I hadn't seen that census thanks!, So if our Lillias was born abt 1786 in East Kilbride, Lanarkshire, Scotland. In that census she should have been aged about 65. So does M and L mean mother in law was aged 92. because that could well be right. Yes there would have been a daughter Lillias.
My caution is that there were so so many Patersons I hope we're not on the wrong path.
If Robert Paterson was born at Foulmires/Foulmyres farm just east of Strathaven then I guess as some point his parents must have farmed there.
I also found this and feel that this is our Paterson line..http://records.ancestry.com.au/lilias_hamilton_records.ashx?pid=128374703
So on this side of the earth... I am working on the details of John Paterson 3 Oct 1874 and how he came about moving to NZ, what ship etc. I also found a James Paterson had lived in Eltham NZ (also where my husbands family are from) where John and his wife lived but the family here do not know of a connection - but now I wonder if there was?
Wishing you well and thank you for your interest in this search. :-) :-) I must go to off to work.
-
I have looked at this area when researching the history of Whiteinch and the Clyde navigation. It can be found here. I have since been contacted by members of the Brock family from America.
https://whiteinchhistory.wordpress.com/2015/08/08/james-whitelaw-the-man-who-took-whiteinch-to-america/
-
Well hello Achillboy,
This is a treasure. Thank you very very much. :-)
I am interested in the relationship between the Brock family and our Robert Paterson. Were they related in some way? How wonderful that you have had contact from them. We do believe some of the Patersons had moved to America and travelled to and fro. Robert's son, Robert who married Margaret McCall Slimmon (Oak Farm, St Albans England) also had a son Robert and he may have lived in America too. I wonder if they moved towards others they knew?
In appreciation. Kindest regards From New Zealand Patersons :-)
... Furthermore, I read in one of the links that William Wallace also bought into the 'Member of the Scots American Company of Farmers' Our Robert Paterson married Ann Wallace, daughter of Samuel Wallace, who was the son of John Wallace. She also had a brother William Wallace :-) lots of connections.
-
I live about 2 miles from the area. the Brock's and the Patterson's were neighbours There was another Paterson family about 2 miles north west of them in what is now Drumchapel.
I'm sure they are on the census returns. are you on ancestry.
-
Thanks for that. It makes sense then that they were farming together at some point. So other Paterson's nearby. I wonder if they were related. i haven't yet been able to go back a generation and find siblings for that generation...I guess that may be the Alexander Paterson who was also mentioned somewhere in that link.
Yes I am on Ancestry... but I am still figuring our how to use it to it's full potential Im sure.
-
I am on ancestry and have just had my DNA done on it. The DNA is brilliant. I am ngtp1 on ancestry.
-
Thanks for that! Yes the DNA does sound interesting.
-
BTW, my concern is that there was likely to be more than one Robert Paterson in this same area at the same time. I have yet to confirm this is actually our Robert Paterson! Does anyone have any tip for me to ascertain this.
Thanks in advance. :-)
-
Ohhhhh, I have just dawned.... the history of Whiteinch and the Clyde navigation mentions Brock and paterson but it's a john Paterson, not our Robert. Bother. Now I need to put that aside and get back on track.