RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: tab11 on Thursday 11 June 15 12:22 BST (UK)
-
Hi Rootschatters,
It's been a while. I know this is a long shot but I wondered whether there are any descendants of the above:-
Children:-
Cecil (girl) 1803
Jane 1804
John 1805
Robert 1807
Helen 1808
Alexander 1809
John Robert 1810
William 1811
Allan 1816
-
Yes descended from Helen 1808-1850
Regards
-
Hi Rob,
We are distantly related! I'm descended from William 1811. Do you have any info about Helen?
Kind Regards
Tab 11 (Liz)
-
I don't have a great deal about Helen, she had a short but interesting life. Born in Edinburgh and next seen in Hazelrigg now known as Camperdown which is beside Killingworth. She married George Reavley 1840 and they can be seen living with Allan and William 1841 along with sons John Reavley and the elder son Allen Miller. Helen died 1850 at Teams, Dunston which is right on the river Tyne. Cause of death is Utterine Hemorrhage of Placenta Provia. She was buried at Whickham 15/08/1850 the day after her death.
George Reavley married Sarah Ferguson nee Robson 7/3/1851 and they can be seen still living in Dunston 1851. Son Allen Miller can be seen at Kibblesworth 1851 living by himself. Allen although his surname is Miller is sometimes seen as Reavley. 1861 he is seen at Houghton le Spring living close to the Reavleys and by now has married Sarah Bishop. This couple are my gggrandparents.
I'd be interested in knowing where your roots are. I have a small amount of info on William 1811 and I would be interested to know who is in your Miller wedding photo which you posted on this site recently. Thank you for your reply.
Regards
-
Many thanks for the quick reply. I was aware of some of the info, not all, we didn't know that George Reavley married so quickly. I knew about her cause of death which I guess was due to childbirth. I've studied the 1841 census with Reavley family living with William and Allan many times, we concluded that William and Allan were already there and the Reavley family moved in with them. Am I correct in thinking that Allan is the illegitimate son of Helen?
Great that you saw the Miller wedding photo. The bride and groom are my grandparents, Robert and Audrey Miller (nee Smith.) To the left of Robert is Hunter Miller (1875) born Houghton-le-Spring, my ggrandfather. His father was Thomas Miller (1844 - 1923) and then we were stuck with 2 possible fathers, both called William Miller (1811) born in Edinburgh. There far too many connections to our family for us to rule out the one on the 1841 census and after much discussion concluded that he was our man....
-
Have you realised the significance of the Surtees girl in the 1841 census ?
-
No please do tell ???
-
We believe this is
Williams step daughter to his first wife and Jane MILLER is his eldest child. I'm away from my notes right now but I will send the details tonight.
-
Thanks, this does make sense. I'd been told that William Miller was a bit of rogue. He travelled from
Scotland to the north of England for various mining jobs, fathering children along the way. His eldest son, Thomas 1844, who is my gggrandfather was completely the opposite. An upstanding member of the community from what I can make out.
William Miller died in Pelton in 1861 as result of liver disease, probably from drinking too much.
-
Hello, more on William Miller.
He had married, had a child and been widowed by 1841. That first wife was
Ann and she had married Ralph Surtees by whom she had a daughter in Gateshead.
The daughter of that marriage remains close to the Millers at least until
her marriage in 1850. The 1835 Miller child of William and Ann, Jane,
cannot be traced with any real certainty after 1841.
ON 12/12/1835, at All Saints Newcastle, an Ann Surtees, who already has a child,
marries William Miller, his brother Allan witnesses the marriage. She
then dies before 1841. Ann's first child, Ellen Surtees is with her step
father at the 1841 census, and then Ellen might go on
to Marry a William Hutchinson in 1850, still in All Saints, and continues to
live there. This Ellen gives Ralph as her father at her wedding. Some
subsequent census entries give her place of birth as Gateshead and Durham.
This links her to the 1830 wedding in Gateshead and the 1835 birth of Ellen
in Gateshead. Hope that's easy to follow.
The 1841 census is the most important document I've seen for this family group, although the address is given as Hazelrigg the name of the village changes about 1842 to Camperdown.
I'm interested in Williams 2nd wife Isabella do you have her surname as Hunter or Miller ?
-
Phew, that's a bit to digest...
Isabella who married William Miller was also Isabella Miller before marriage. She already had an illegitimate child with a miner with the surname Paterson. We found that Millers had married Hunters on both sides of the tree. My father and brother both have the name Hunter as second christian names and my dad decided to be known as Hunter, as do my male cousins.
My maiden name was Miller.
-
Hi again,
I was wondering what happens to Allen after 1871? He seems to disappear, also which of the children do you descend from?
-
Allen Miller died at Seaham 4/4/1881, he was buried at Christchurch although there is no headstone. His eldest surviving son Allen was my greatgrandfather.
-
Hi, That was my next question. I believe they had 9 children:-
Thomas 1858/Ellen 1860/Sarah 1861/Ellen 1863/Allen 1865 -1909/Sarah 1870/Thomas 1871 - 1930/John 1875 - 1940/William 1879 - 1949
Do you agree with the above dates? Do you have any info about Allen or any of the others?
-
They must have had ten children. I've missed the eldest Ellen you have but I also have Jane 1867 at New Herrington.
-
Yes there is a gap so I guess that would be right...
Which one is your ancestor?
-
Hi Liz, Rob
It's slowly dawning on me as I trace my maternal Miller line that I am entering the realm of the family line of Robert-William-Jane MILLER b. 1836 which you have yourselves traced.
My line continues from illegitimate child Henry of Jane down through my GGrandfather William Miller b. 1891. William survived 4 years on the Somme 100 years ago serving in the Tyneside Irish Brigade and Norhtumberland Fusiliers and so it's particularly poignant to be finding out more about his family line - and maybe even whom he was named after, even if he was a bit of a rogue!
I'm interested in Jane's life as she seems to have had a difficult period of change in the 1850s (can't yet find her on the 1851 census) which ended up with a forgotten marriage, 2 children seemingly from different fathers and a spell in the workhouse. You'll find out about the different avenues I've explored in other posts, which I must admit have rather stretched my brain...
Other than that gap in the 1851 census I now have decent coverage of Jane's life thanks to certificates and roots hat. I've ordered some final certificates which will clarify a possible marriage to Thomas Bates which produced a child of the same name.
Did you find what happened to Ann Miller (nee Surtees) after she had become mother to Jane in late 1830s?
I've read with interest your discussion and revelations about the children of Robert Miller and wondered what you know of his life in Scotland and parentage, and the same with Jane Low?
Look forward to hearing more...
Regards
Kevin
-
http://www.nls.uk/catalogues/scottish-book-trade-index/mearn-miller Scroll to Robert Millar.
-
Hi Kevin/Shopbooth,
Please could you clarify your maternal line leading to Robert Miller/Jane Low...
Thanks
Tab11
-
Hi Tab11
Certainly ... census research and certificates point to
Me
Mam
James Trewick Miller b. 1915 (Grandfather)
William Miller b. 1891 (Great Grandfather)
Henry Miller b. 1858
Jane Miller b. 1836
William Miller b. 1811
Robert Miller b. 1768
John Miller b. 1725 ...?
-
Just so you know here's mine -
Stan Taylor .. me dad
Sarah Miller .. Grandmother
Allen Miller .. Great grandad
Allen Miller .. Great great Grandad
Helen/Ellen Miller GGG grandmother
Robert Millar the bookbinder.
-
Hi again Rob and Kevin,
Thanks for posting your respective trees. Kevin, I'm not sure of any of your entries and now I'm questioning whether I've gone down the correct line to Robert Miller and Jane Low. We were a little stuck at William Miller 1811 born Edinburgh as there were 2 options and as the result of an 1841 census we thought this was the correct line. How sure are you that you have the right line? I don't mean to sound disrespectful but we've being trying to reach a conclusion for many years.
Rob, can you add some dates please...
Thanks
Tab 11
-
Hi Tab11
No problem at all.
It does seem to fall into place for me, though I am a relative novice with limited time for research. I've relied on rootschat help quite a bit to piece things together but I'm fairly confident of tracing the right line.
I had originally stopped at Jane Miller, single mother in Tynemouth Workhouse giving birth to Henry in 1858 and Henry's birth and marriage certificates tally with this, as does Jane's later marriage certificate to Thomas McGlauglin.
I struggled for some time to find a Jane Miller born in Camperdown (which she consistently puts i census as place of birth) in 1836-9 and followed a few lines which I dismissed with some confidence.
The name switch from Hazlerigg to Camperdown in 1840s meant that finding a William and Jane in 1841 with a 5 year old Jane seemed a firm possibility.
The only thing I lack is a mention of William as a Coal Miner, as the wedding certificate in 1867 (Jane Miller - Thomas McGlaughlin) has him as a Labourer.
In the 1861 census he is still head of the family as a Coal Miner, dying that same year - so I'm surprised he is not recorded on certificate as William Miller (deceased), Coal Miner. However, she is recorded as Spinster and she has certainly borne one child, perhaps two and possibly been married, so everything might have been deliberately vague as she marries into the Roman Catholic church??
I am awaiting certificates relating to her possible marriage to Thomas Bates in 1855 and birth of a son which might give a few pointers...
If this is my Jane, then it looks like her mother would have been Ann Miller who married William in 1835 and died before the 1841 census leading us back to that family in Hazlerigg making her half sister to Ellen Surtees and William's later children with Isabella.
Hope that makes sense, but maybe I've got my wires crossed somewhere...
-
Hello Kevin, that's an interesting tree, I think I'd like to see the paper trail once you receive the certificates. I notice there is a Thomas Bates at Hazelrigg 1841, and a Thomas Bates married Jane Miller 24/12/1855 at Christchurch, they posted a notice in the North and South Shields Gazette, so I wonder where Thomas went, there doesn't seem to be any children from the marriage. Have you seen Henry's baptism yet? there may be a clue in that or in Tynemouth workhouse records which was just up the road from Christchurch.
I am surprised William is described as a labourer, in my experience they have always been recorded as miners but there's always a first time -could be because she wasn't close to her family.
-
Hello Kevin, here's some info on a Thomas Bates 1841 recorded at Hazelrigg with his family father Thomas, mother Mary age 45, son John age 15, Thomas age 10. 1851 Recorded at Seaton Delaval, Thomas age 20 born at Gosforth with family mother Mary a widow age 55, John 25 and others all born Gosforth.
Cowpen 1861 Thomas Bates married born 1831 Gosforth, wife Jane 25 born Earsdon. son Thomas born Earsdon age 4, son Joseph age 6mths born Horton.
Cowpen 1871 Thomas born Kenton, wife Jane born Hartley. Kenton was in Gosforth parish and Hartley is in Earsdon.
It seems this couple were together from 1861 to 71, I suspect there are two different Ann Millers one the daughter of William a labourer and one the daughter of William the coalminer. Not sure how you can nail that down though. You could try baptism records at Earsdon to try to find Jane Miller.
-
Hello Kevin, here's some info on a Thomas Bates 1841 recorded at Hazelrigg with his family father Thomas, mother Mary age 45, son John age 15, Thomas age 10. 1851 Recorded at Seaton Delaval, Thomas age 20 born at Gosforth with family mother Mary a widow age 55, John 25 and others all born Gosforth.
Cowpen 1861 Thomas Bates married born 1831 Gosforth, wife Jane 25 born Earsdon. son Thomas born Earsdon age 4, son Joseph age 6mths born Horton.
Cowpen 1871 Thomas born Kenton, wife Jane born Hartley. Kenton was in Gosforth parish and Hartley is in Earsdon.
It seems this couple were together from 1861 to 71, I suspect there are two different Jane Millers Not sure how you can nail that down though. You could try baptism records at Earsdon to try to find Jane Miller.
-
Just to muddy the waters a bit more here's some info. picked up yesterday concerning Jane Miller, Henry Miller and Thomas Bates.
23/12/1855 Jane Miller married Thomas Bates at Christchurch, Tynemouth, both are described as of this parish, and of full age. Jane is the daughter of William Miller profession is given as miner. Thomas is the son of Thomas Bates also a miner.
Thomas and Jane can be followed in different census living in the Cowpen/Bebside area of Blyth 1861 - 1911. Thomas was born at Kenton in Gosforth parish, Jane gives place of birth as Hartley, Earsdon parish. I can't find a baptism for Jane at Earsdon nor can I find a census entry in 1841 or 1851.
Henry Miller was born 7/6/1858 at Tynemouth workhouse and Baptised at Christchurch, Tynemouth 30/7/1858 Jane is described as a single woman. By 1861 she is again in Newcastle with Henry describing her birthplace as West Moor and in later census as Camperdown.
Is it just coincidence that Thomas Bates also lived in Camperdown also known as Hazelrigg. Camperdown is a two street hamlet in 1890. in 1841 there are about 420 people, most involved in the coal industry, probably working at Burradon pit.
So two Jane Millers - one the daughter of William a coalminer, born at Hartley married to Thomas Bates, one the daughter of William a labourer, with son Henry and soon to Marry Thomas McLaughlin, birthplace consistently given as West Moor or Camperdown.
I think Henry's mother is the daughter of William and Ann Surtees but until a positive link is found it will always be open to question.
-
Liz with dates
Stan Taylor .. me dad
Sarah Miller .. Grandmother 30/1/1904 at Stanley, Co. Durham
Allen Miller .. Great grandad 29/5/1865 at Washington, Co. Durham
Allen Miller .. Great great Grandad about 1834 Edinburgh
Helen/Ellen Miller GGG grandmother 11/3/1808 Edinburgh
Robert Millar the bookbinder.
-
The 2 certificates have now arrived:
Thomas Bates marriage to Jane Miller
Details as provided by Robtaylor
Thomas Bates birth
Details:
2nd October 1856, Seaton Terrace
Thomas, boy, Father: Thomas Bates, Coal Miner, Mother: Jane Bates (formerly Miller)
Seaton Terrace was a hamlet lying on the Shields-Morpeth road between Holywell and Seaton Delaval.
Don't think that adds anything to the mix?
By my reckoning we have...
Jane Miller, b. 1835-37, Earsdon/Hartley, wife of Thomas Bates from 1855, mother of Thomas b. 1856
daughter of
William Miller, b. Scotland, Coal Miner
Jane Miller, b. 1837-41 Camperdown/West Moor, unmarried mother of Henry b. 1858, wife of Thomas McGlaughlin from 1867
daughter of
William Miller b. ??, Labourer
Does this mean that the family recorded in Hazlerigg in 1841 is Earsdon Jane and they just happen to be living in the very place that Camperdown Jane categorically claims as her birthplace?
If so, where is Camperdown Jane and William Labourer in the 1841 census?
Any ideas how this could become any clearer?
-
Thanks for the post Kevin, I notice Camperdown Jane also has a son James born at Newcastle 1861/2 who can be seen in the 1871 census for Newcastle.
I'm not sure of the best way to proceed, trawling the 1841 census would be time consuming, I've tried numerous searches on findmypast to try to find a suitable second William.
Visiting TWAS to look at Tynemouth Workhouse records, will have to wait until I have a holiday because of their poor opening hours. Meanwhile if anything does turn up please let us know.
Regards
Rob Taylor
North Shields
-
I did come across a baptism of Jane Miller at All Saints, Newcastle but not sure if this has previously cropped up and been ruled out or is a known fact???:
8 Oct 1836
Jane Miller, father William Miller, mother Ann
Is this most likely the daughter of William and Ann (Surtees)? or would she have been baptised somewhere north/north east of Newcastle.
-
Remember I did this about ten years ago but I have notes suggesting William and Ann were living at Wideopen but that needs checked as I don't have a copy of the original, I've always thought that was William and Ann Surtees. George Reavley and Helen Miller married at All Saints in 1840 but they were described as living at St. Anthony's.
-
The Jane Miller baptism is on familysearch and abode is given as Wideopen.
-
Hi all,
Rob Taylor has made me aware of this and in effect other related threads on the Edinburgh Miller/Low(Law) family.
He and I are descended via clear family trees descended, (he by the eldest and I the youngest), from sons of Robert and Jane's grandson Allan, (b 1834). DNA could probably establish if others of you researching their link wish to confirm it.........I, my brother and another Miller descended cousin have already taken autosomal DNA tests via ancestry. If any of you who are unsure whether your ancestry includes the Miller/Low family and want to confirm it why not take a test - if you share DNA with myself, my brother and my cousin you are, (unless we have other common ancestry), also a descendant of Robert and Jane. JOE L