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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: worth on Tuesday 16 June 15 14:20 BST (UK)

Title: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: worth on Tuesday 16 June 15 14:20 BST (UK)
Hi all
I have found the marriage of a William Heatlie married to a Nancy (Agnes) Beattie on 15 May 1825 in Cavers Roxburgh on the Ancestry.co website but I cant find it for toffee on Scotlands people. I have attached the ancestry image below, im not asking for a scotlands people lookup as I know its pay per view but I have tried everything in all directions to find the record. Surely it must be on the SP site as that's were Ancestry got all the information and it obviously excists as its been transcribed. Is there anything else I can try to find this original record as its driving me nuts. Thanks in advance Dawn

Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: isobelw on Tuesday 16 June 15 14:35 BST (UK)
I believe the source of the Ancestry record is the Mormon Familysearch database and therefore this particular bit of information may be user-submitted rather than based on an actual parish record. Only the parish records appear on Scotlandspeople.
Isobel
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 16 June 15 14:35 BST (UK)
Ancestry got the information from Latter Day Saints   ;)

The film number 1067933 quoted according to the LDS catalogue is here
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/238828?availability=Family%20History%20Library

It is not unusual however for the LDS to get the film number right but the parish mixed up with another on the film so it may be in Castleton or Crailing  https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&query=%2Bfilm_number%3A1067933
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: larkspur on Tuesday 16 June 15 17:19 BST (UK)
Hi I put Agnes Beattie into Scotlands People, Old Parish Records/ Banns Marriages, with just the date of 1825. It brings up 1 match. William, however does not produce anything.

1851 census Parish: Cavers; ED: 1; Page: 12; Line: 15; Roll: CSSCT1851_201; Year: 1851
Agnes is down under her maiden name, on the 1841 census under her married name. Don't know if there is any significance in this?
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 16 June 15 22:28 BST (UK)
Details for children to Nancy/Agnes and William certainly seem to fit well for a 1825 marriage don't they - www.rootschat.com/links/01fho/  (link shrunk from family search).

Monica  :)
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 16 June 15 23:00 BST (UK)

1851 census Parish: Cavers; ED: 1; Page: 12; Line: 15; Roll: CSSCT1851_201; Year: 1851
Agnes is down under her maiden name, on the 1841 census under her married name. Don't know if there is any significance in this?


Scottish women never loose by law their maiden names by marriage. This is the reason a woman's maiden name features so strongly in Scottish records. Married women, particularly in earlier times, often show using their maiden names, whilst married or widowed.

Agnes shows in 1851 as a widow, under her maiden name of Beattie www.maxwellancestry.com/census/51transcript.aspx?houseid=78501131

Monica

PS: Whatever the wildcards, can't see the marriage mentioned in 1825 on SP  :-\
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: dowdstree on Tuesday 16 June 15 23:53 BST (UK)
Hi there,

I have used Scotlands People online and like you couldn't find the entry I wanted but luckily I live in Edinburgh, and went for a day to search their records in person - and would you believe it - found what I was looking for ???? eventually. Can't explain this !!!  Neither could they ;D

If you are able to come to Edinburgh its only 15 for the day and 50p to print a record.

Dorrie





Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: larkspur on Wednesday 17 June 15 09:37 BST (UK)
"Scottish women never loose by law their maiden names by marriage. This is the reason a woman's maiden name features so strongly in Scottish records. Married women, particularly in earlier times, often show using their maiden names, whilst married or widowed."

Yes I did realise this, but in all my Scottish searching I have never come across a wife on the census not using her married name, so was not sure how this worked, Hence my question "Don't know if there is any significance in this?"

I have shown a different 1851 census to you, so we may have 2 ladies here.
Cavers
William Heatlie   56
Nancy Beattie   53
Thomas Heatlie   20
James Heatlie   19
John Heatlie   18
William Heatlie   16

Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: larkspur on Wednesday 17 June 15 09:45 BST (UK)
Monica
"Agnes shows in 1851 as a widow, under her maiden name of Beattie www.maxwellancestry.com/census/51transcript.aspx?houseid=78501131"

Walter Beattie was baptised in Cavers 23-12-1832 to Thomas Beattie and Agnes Miller, so not the correct census image, I did wonder why the children were under the name Beattie....Your widowed Agnes Beattie was married to Thomas Beattie.

Baptisms Cavers
Nelly 20 Sep 1796
Thomas 15 May 1803
Parents John Beattie and Cilia Hall
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: worth on Wednesday 17 June 15 11:30 BST (UK)
Hi all and thanks for all your replys.
I have them on the 1841 and 1851 census and I thought it a bit strange that she used her maiden name, I thought at one point that William had married twice once to an Agnes and 2nd to a Nancy but according to his death in 1855 only Agnes Beattie is named. According to Williams death cert Agnes had already died between 1851 and 1855 but again her death record is also a mystery as with their marriage.
Larkspur: The 1851 census you found is the same one I have with his wife named as Nancy Beattie, question.... is Nancy another name for Agnes in Scotland?
Dowdstree: I live in England so it would be a 5 hour journey to Edinburgh, might see if I can contact the record office online and email them about it.
MonikaL: All of their children are on Williams death certificate, I checked their first child, Alexanders, birth register just in case there was a reference to his parents marrying and it does state that both William and Agnes were married so that at least proved that bit.
Thanks for all your help, im off for another look. X
Dawn
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: terianne on Wednesday 17 June 15 12:57 BST (UK)
the Ancestry database (IGI/LSD details) was originally based on the old OPR's & Church records. & individual sources like submitted trees (which some need additional checking)

An agreement was made that the Church's would provide the info if it was freely available to Users.

Scotlandpeople records pre 1855 can be patchy because it relies of the OPR's/ Church records available but its update upon receipt of data & many non-conformist records missing & you may need to consult the original church records . Post 1855 still the best source (if transposted correctly).

Also free website provides the 1841,1851 & 1861 for the Scottish Borders area
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 17 June 15 21:04 BST (UK)
Dawn, sorry. That was a rubbish 1851 link from me...aka, way wrong  :P Thankfully, larkspur was accurate  ;)

Agnes, Nancy and Ann are common variants. This is my favourite first name variants site, with a helpful Scottish bias www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=nancy

As Terianne mentions, a great website for censuses for the Borders, amongst other useful info is www.maxwellancestry.com/census/  You also have www.freecen.org.uk/

If it helps, are you familiar with Scottish naming pattern. Lots of links on line for this, such as www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm  Not always followed, or in order, but very often was which can throw up lots of clues really. Included in this is the use of surnames as middle names.

Monica  :)
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 17 June 15 21:17 BST (UK)

Yes I did realise this, but in all my Scottish searching I have never come across a wife on the census not using her married name, so was not sure how this worked, Hence my question "Don't know if there is any significance in this?"


Larkspur, the practice of finding married women or widows showing using their maiden name seems to have been more common in the 1841 & 1851 censuses. This practice seems to have died out on censuses by 1861 onwards.

Monica  :)
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: terianne on Wednesday 17 June 15 22:09 BST (UK)
In the Scottish system the women's B M & D are registered under their maiden surname & don't legally give up their maiden name when they marry they choose to take their husband's name - but don't have to - helps with research & middle names are very common are do have family links - still common in the borders today - my brother and I have 2 each with links to both side of our family
Title: Re: Ancestry Vs Scotlands people
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 17 June 15 22:23 BST (UK)
To add to this, on women and their maiden names, this is why you can search for married women on SP with both their maiden and married surnames. Similarly. why on gravestone inscriptions, married women show with their maiden names (married to...etc).

Helps so much with Scottish research always.

Monica