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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: Tickettyboo on Wednesday 17 June 15 19:58 BST (UK)
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Short version:
Could anyone tell me if a photocopy birth cert from Ireland GRO,(sometime in the 1880s) will be from the original register of births or is it a copy of a copy kind of thing?
If the GRO hold a copy of copy, can anyone tell me if local registrars hold the original registers and, if so, do they also do a photocopy version?
Longer version if anyone can advise:
I have been researching a lady who was born in Tipperary sometime in the 1880s. Family moved to England c1900. English 1901 census, has her age as being born c1884, English 1911 census is consistent with that.
She married in 1918, gave her age as 29, which means she was born c1889. I know that sometimes we ladies shave a few years off our ages and her hubby was born 1891 so was younger than her so that may be relevant.
rootsireland.ie shows me a civil registration record transcription for a child of the right name, right parents, right place - born 21st Jan 1883
BUT in 1917, not long before she married she must have applied for and got a birth cert from Ireland. Its dated 17 Sep 1917 and says its a certified copy of entry 301 in the register book of births, District of Kilcooley, in the Union of Urlingford and its word for word the same as the 1883 transcript on rootsireland EXCEPT for the birth year which says 1889.
I get the feeling that its likely to be an error by whoever did the copy certificate in 1917 when she applied, even registrars make transcription errors :-) and when it arrived she must have thought Great! six years younger at a stroke, I'll take that :-)
So, I have this anomaly and I am not sure whether the GRO would be my best bet or if I should be asking a local registrar for a photocopy of an entry (if, indeed, they do such things) and if its the local registrar how would I go about that?
Sorry if that was longwinded and hard to follow but its frying my brain!
Boo
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Where do you live?
If in Ireland you can get them at your local Reg office for all of Ireland! They are scans of the actual registers and just get a photocopy of it!
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Thanks, but I am in Derbyshire, England so its a bit of a trek for me to get to a local registrar.
I know I can apply to the GRO by post, for a photocopy - I've done that before. Maybe I should just do that and see what comes back. Its really bugging me and I want to see if I can pin it down one way or the other. Haven't been able to find a baptism (RC) record yet to cross reference with.
Boo
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Ahh OK, it is a photocopy of the register, as you probably know.
If you had kin in ireland they can get them local wherever they live now instead of GRO office, pretty handy!!
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word for word the same as the 1883 transcript on rootsireland EXCEPT for the birth year which says 1889........ see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=670189.0
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word for word the same as the 1883 transcript on rootsireland EXCEPT for the birth year which says 1889........ see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=670189.0
I take your point, but I also checked the GRO index, via Family Search and the civil records search on Irish Genealogy.ie. Both of those sites only have a GRO index record for this name (and variants) in the right district in 1883, no other entry between 1880-1890. There is definitely a discrepancy somewhere and the only way I am going to find out where is to get this photocopy.
The application form now printed and completed and I have put a note in explaining the problem I am trying to suss out. I'll post it off in the morning.
Fingers crossed I will solve the mystery in a couple of weeks :-)
Boo
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All you can do for now!
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Hi There
I'm just wondering ~
1. Does it matter ? I suppose it depends on how closely related they are !
2. Is the date the exact same, ie date and month ?
3. I would trust rootsireland LESS than an actual cert that the lady in question had gotten herself.
Rootsireland is great but I have come across a lot of errors on it.
4. Do you want to give us the persons name to see what / when there are registers to correspond with it ?
Tara
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There is another explanation for the later birthdate-
BUT in 1917, not long before she married she must have applied for and got a birth cert from Ireland. Its dated 17 Sep 1917 and says its a certified copy of entry 301 in the register book of births, District of Kilcooley, in the Union of Urlingford and its word for word the same as the 1883 transcript on rootsireland EXCEPT for the birth year which says 1889.
Have come across a similar thing at least 3 times and in each case (at least 2 birth and 1 marriage) the certificates were carefully altered to make it seem that-
1) parents married sooner (1st child actually born a few months after wedding) so marriage was 1 year earlier than actual record
2) child born later (year added so looked like parents married 9+ months when child born)
3) birthdate altered by several years so that bride appeared younger than actual age
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Hi Aghadowey
As in ~ the lady in question could have altered it when she received it !
Wow, I never thought of that.
Something to bear in mind ;D
Tara
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We, if she told her intended husband she was 29 years old but was really six years older then she may have found it easier to 'adjust' the certificate rather than confess her age, especially if he thought they would be having a family together ;D
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Hi There
I'm just wondering ~
1. Does it matter ? I suppose it depends on how closely related they are !
Probably only to me, I tend to investigate all discrepancies, I like to be as sure as I can and document things properly. That means I look for a civil reg that corresponds to the certificate and I can't find one to match the year on the birth cert but I CAN find one (which may or may not have an accurate transcript on another site) that does match. Its odd. I don't actually care how old she was or wasn't when she married. She was my husband's grandmother and therefore in his direct line, if I can't get the direct line properly documented I am 'really' stuck!
2. Is the date the exact same, ie date and month ?
Yes, both the birth cert and the transcript have 21 Jan, which tallies with my aged Pa in laws knowledge of his mother's birthday.
3. I would trust rootsireland LESS than an actual cert that the lady in question had gotten herself.
I have ordered quite a few official certs over the last 15 years that were handwritten at the time of issue by a local registrar from the details in the register. Its rare, but at least two had mistranscriptions -which were then returned and corrected.
Rootsireland is great but I have come across a lot of errors on it.
I view all transcriptions as a finding aid and from the details try to get a copy of the original to be sure of them, hence my original question as to whether the register the GRO has is the original, or if that would still be held at the local registrars, as would have happened in England with a copy of the original register going to the GRO - I don't know how the system worked in Ireland
4. Do you want to give us the persons name to see what / when there are registers to correspond with it ?
Thanks for the offer, much appreciated as is your interest and input, but I'll wait and see what the photocopy entry says, then may come back if I am still stuck. Its puzzled me for a very long time now :-)
Boo
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We, if she told her intended husband she was 29 years old but was really six years older then she may have found it easier to 'adjust' the certificate rather than confess her age, especially if he thought they would be having a family together ;D
he he! not beyond the realms of possibility, but having seen the cert it didn't happen in this case. She 'could' probably have done it these days, given the correct stationery and a good graphics package but I've zoomed right in on it on the scan, the date is in 3 separate places and I'd bet my boots its as the registrar wrote it back in 1917 :-)
Boo
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Hi There
I take it the cert was always in your husbands family's possession ?!
The reason I asked about the date was that I was wondering if this lady had an elder sibling with the same name.
This elder sibling could have died in infancy and then the name was passed on, which was common.
It would make it rare though for both of them to have the same birthdate though !
Oh Well,
Sure let us know if you do / don't get the answers that you want !
Tara
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he he! not beyond the realms of possibility, but having seen the cert it didn't happen in this case. She 'could' probably have done it these days, given the correct stationery and a good graphics package but I've zoomed right in on it on the scan, the date is in 3 separate places and I'd bet my boots its as the registrar wrote it back in 1917 :-)
I'm a bit confused here- do you have the actual 1917 certificate or are you just viewing a scan of it?
It wouldn't have been that difficult to change a 3 to a 9.
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I'm a bit confused here- do you have the actual 1917 certificate or are you just viewing a scan of it?
It wouldn't have been that difficult to change a 3 to a 9.
The original 1917 cert has always been in the family, I also have it scanned. Looking at both of them I really don't think its been altered in any way at any time.
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Defo a 9 !
Aghadowey,
You may know this ~ and I think it was Ticketyboo's original question as such.
Obviously there were / are the civil register books ~
Those registers were obviously centralised at some point.
So, back in 1917 when this lady was looking for her birth cert what was the procedure ~ ie prior to photocopies or print outs of scans of the original registers (which I'm presuming is done these days).
Back in 1917, would the procedure have been for the original book to be 'taken out' and then a clerk to write the information onto an individual cert ?
Now that I think of it that's probably what would be done !
Hum would certainly lead to errors if so !
Tara
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I take it the cert was always in your husbands family's possession ?!
Yes, its was at the back of a drawer for many, many years, now unfolded and filed properly in archive quality folders :-)
The reason I asked about the date was that I was wondering if this lady had an elder sibling with the same name.
This elder sibling could have died in infancy and then the name was passed on, which was common.
It would make it rare though for both of them to have the same birthdate though !
Yes, I have a lot of that in my tree, but if that had happened I 'should' be able to find both civil registrations for the birth and a civil reg for the death of the first one. I can't, so this is my next theory to be explored.
Sure let us know if you do / don't get the answers that you want !
I will do, I'm grateful for the interest and possible scenarios/theories. Its not a case of I want the answer to be one way or another, I just want an answer that I can put in the box marked, 'having explored all possibilities this is the most likely scenario' :-) May not get it, but I'll plod along in hope!
Boo
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HEY
I've come across WAY too many people whom come across any piece of random information and just run with it ::)
I LOVE when people are thorough ;D
Tara
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Defo a 9 !
Aghadowey,
You may know this ~ and I think it was Ticketyboo's original question as such.
Obviously there were / are the civil register books ~
Those registers were obviously centralised at some point.
So, back in 1917 when this lady was looking for her birth cert what was the procedure ~ ie prior to photocopies or print outs of scans of the original registers (which I'm presuming is done these days).
Back in 1917, would the procedure have been for the original book to be 'taken out' and then a clerk to write the information onto an individual cert ?
Now that I think of it that's probably what would be done !
Hum would certainly lead to errors if so !
Tara
If you look at Civil Reg stuff you'll see Jan/Mar etc as the books were sent in every quarter to the main office in the county.
My son was registered in Drogheda, if I want to see that actual register I have to go to Dundalk to see it, as that is the main Office.
For many, a birth etc at end of December is very often not registered until January, so somebody born Dec 1926 will be in Jan/Mar 1927 book. In order to increase security and stop people changing Certs a special ink was used so most changes can be spotted.
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Do you know what the procedure was in 1917 though Hallmark, for someone living abroad.
I presume you could send a letter to the GRO of the time asking for your birth cert.
The crucial point here though was HOW did a clerk in the GRO in 1917 GIVE you your cert ?
I am working on the presumption that there was no photocopiers at the time.
SO, did the clerk go to the register and then proceed in handwriting you up a copy of what was written in the register ?
This 'copy' was then posted back to you, I presume.
My point being, if this was the scenario, then human error could happen !
Tara
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if you have the parental name and parish a baptismal cert will verify the information and these are usually held in the local parish,
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Thanks Graham, all I know is that she was born in Kilcooley in the Union of Urlingford and the informant was a lady called Margaret Butler who gave her address as New Birmingham.
We have always assumed (rightly or wrongly) she was a family friend/relation and perhaps helped out at the birth and then registered the birth.
How easy/ involved would it be to apply for a baptism record?
I assume that if they are still held at the parish, the local priest must be inundated with requests and may not have time within his main role to deal with them.Is there a 'right way' to apply, or should I see if I can find an address and write off to see what happens?
Boo
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the local parish is Gurtnahoe co tippeary whicc incorporated Kilcooly and New Birmingham and I would suggest writing to the parish ofices who will ether confirm the have it or where it is now held some parishes passed their records to private companies good hunting
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Thanks for the information and help, much appreciated
I've made a note and will wait till I get the scan I ordered from the GRO and see if that gets me any closer to knowing 'which' year she was born. No matter where I order records from, its usually much easier (and cheaper) if I know in advance 'when' the event was likely to take place :-)
Boo
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Me again, not really any further forward - yet!:-)
to re-cap
Sarah Frances O'Connor was born in Tipperary in the 1880s, moved to Liverpool, England with her family c 1900. Her son (my Pa in law who is 91) tells me his mother's birthday was 21st January.
I have her parents' mariage record which states they married on 21st Feb 1882
England census 1901, she is listed as being 16, born Ireland
England census 1911, she is listed as being 27, born Ireland, Tipperary
Everything on those 2 census returns checks out with what we know about the family.
The family have a birth cert, issued in 1917 (applied for from England, just before she married) for Sarah Frances O'Connor
it reads: 1889 Births registered in District of Kilcooley, Union of Urlingford, County Tipperary
Date and place of birth: 21st Jan 1889, Name Sarah Frances O'Connor, Father: Daniel O'Connor of Mellasane, Mother: Catherine O'Connor formerly Delaney, Father's occupation: Farmer,
Informant: Margaret Butler (X, her mark) present at the birth, New Birmingham, Registered 29th Jan 1889.
My puzzle was that the year on the birth cert was not consistent with the info given on 2 census returns.
I checked the Irish GRO Register and could not find a registration in 1889 for a child called Sarah, surname O'Connor, Connor, Connors which puzzled me further.
I 'could' find a likely registration for a Sarah Connors registered in Q1 1883 so I applied for a photocopy of the entry.
That came today and reads:
1883 Births registered in District of Kilcooley, Union of Urlingford, County Tipperary
Date and place of birth: 21st Jan 1883, Name Sarah (no middle name recorded) Connors, Father: Daniel Connors of Mellasane, Mother: Catherine Connors formerly Delaney, Father's occupation: Farmer,
Informant: Margaret Butler (X, her mark) present at the birth, New Birmingham, Registered 29th Jan 1883.
I accept that sometimes a child died and the family would later use the same name for a subsequent child, but the absence of an 1889 birth reg and the odds against two children being born on exactly the same day and month but 6 years apart are fairly high so, at the moment, that scenario is doubtful.
I have emailed the GRO in Ireland to ask if the scans they issue are from the 'original, completed at the time of registration' register or if they are from a 'copy of the original register made by the local registrar who then kept the original records and sent the copy register to the GRO central office' (as would have happened in England, I have no idea what would have happened in Ireland)
I have also sent off an enquiry form to the Tipperary Family History Research office in Tipperary where the RC Parish records are held. I have asked if there are baptisms for a child of this name and parents in both/either 1883 and 1889 with the intention of buying copies of both if they exist.
I (and my Pa in law) are still leaning towards the theory that the cert issued in 1917 was mistranscribed by a busy registrar who put down 1889 (3 times!) in error. Sarah received the cert and thought Yes! I am now only 2 years older than my intended, rather than 6 :-) Further records (her marriage and death certs) show that she stuck to being born in 1889 from there on.
So still not solved my problem, but am taking baby steps to get to the bottom of it.
If anyone can think of other lines to pursue if the steps don't resolve the puzzle, I'd be interested.
Boo
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http://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2015/04/nli-announces-date-for-launch-of-rc.html
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Sounds wonderful, but I looked on the NLI list of RC parish records they have on microfilm and the ones for the area I am looking at only seem to go up to 1880, so too early for this query - though it will 'really' be great for going back a generation - or two, or three :-)
Thank you!
Boo
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I'm almost there.
Sorry if this is boring people, but I may as well post it here in case its of use to anyone in the future.
Reply from GRO Ireland, to my question about if they send out scans of original, written at the time the event was registered at the local registrars, or scans of a 'copy' of those registers.
The lady at the GRO explained that what I got was a scan of a 'copy' of the original register.
Just as in England & Wales, you went to the local registrar to register your child's birth. He wrote it in the register and, I assume, would have supplied a certificate to say he had done so.
At the end of the quarter/year, whatever the specified period was, he would copy the entire original register for that period and send it off to the GRO.
Local registrar, did and still does, retain the original register book.
She didn't specify how GRO Ireland would have compiled the index they have (which gives the GRO ref to apply for a copy cert) but I think I am safe in assuming it was the same system as was used in England & Wales. GRO gets all the copy books from all over the country, an army of clerks lists all the names registered, gives each of them a GRO ref which is different from the entry number in the local book, then sorts them by year/quarter, then alphabetically and compiles the index. Done in handwriting in the earlier years, then later by typewriters and these days, I assume, in a computer database.
LOTS of room for errors, both at local level copying the registers and then at GRO level copying names, adding in central refs and sorting them into alpha order. On the whole it all worked quite well though.
She said the year of birth (1883) on the scanned copy is correct as per her copy register and she had also checked with the registrar in Tipperary who confirmed the same entry in the original register.
Tipperary Family History Research, at a hefty charge - but it is what it is and I want the info, apparently don't have parish registers after 1878 but have transcribed and checked them all. There IS a corresponding baptism for this child, 2 days after her birth in 1883, parents correct as per the civil cert. There is 'nothing' showing in their records for a baptism for a child of this name/ these parents in 1889.
So far so good, the cert issued in 1917 for a birth year of 1889 is looking increasingly likely to be an error on the part of the local registrar.
My final step is to ask the GRO what, if anything, is in the copy register for 1889 for the date on the cert issued in 1917 and if they can check it with the local registrar. If there IS an entry in 1889 for this child, its not in the GRO index but if they can find one I will get the ref and purchase the scan. I suspect they won't find one though and at that stage I'll be done.
I emailed the GRO today to ask, gave a link to a scan of the cert we have with the 1889 date on so they can 'see' my problem. Will wait till they get back to me :-)
Boo
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Was the 1917 copy issued by the GRO, or by the district registry? Seems to be assumed in the discussion here that it was from the GRO, but might not?
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For reference, the 1883 registration
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02748/2009836.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02748/2009836.pdf)
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All the previous discussion missed an important point. The 1883 entry *IS* entry No. 301 in the register.
That alone seems to rule out the supposed 1889 entry with same name. Would not be same number!
Conclusion - the 1917 copy is bogus.
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Thanks for the interest, but I came to that conclusion about 8 years ago.
though hand in the air I'd use the term, 'slapdash error' by whoever produced the cert, rather than 'bogus' which implies that someone in the family made it up to resemble an official cert
Boo
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Thanks for the interest, but I came to that conclusion about 8 years ago.
though hand in the air I'd use the term, 'slapdash error' by whoever produced the cert, rather than 'bogus' which implies that someone in the family made it up to resemble an official cert
Boo
But the differences are more than just the date (year), aren't they? You initially said the only difference was in the year, but the additional info you posted later showed that Sarah picked up an additional Christian name that is not on the 1883 registration, and that the surname changed from Connor to O'Connor.
Writing 1889 for 1883 might be "slapdash", but I personally would not say the same for also turning Sarah into Sarah Frances. That is into bogus territory.
You didn't say where the 1917 cert was sourced from - GRO or locally?