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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: BevStimpson on Wednesday 24 June 15 22:49 BST (UK)
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This is my brick wall :)
Sarah Ann Rothbourne married my Gt Gt Granddad William Taylor.
Now I know they were both illiterate. So possibly her surname could have been incorrectly written pm her daughters birth certificate
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BUT... the only birth I can find for a Sarah Ann in the area (Hulme according to the 1881 census) leads me to Rathbone.
Having spent hours, days, weeks and months following this lead, (I even had both parents and grandparents) Sarah Ann Rathbone married someone other than William Taylor and died at a good age, whereas my Sarah Ann died at age 31 from inflammation of the bowels. I have her death certificate.
I haven't been able to locate the marriage certificate, nor birth certificate for Sarah Ann Rothbourne, or in fact for William Taylor - but circa 1854 it is almost impossible to locate him specifically ;D From the census I estimate Sarah's birth to be circa 1857 which also fits with the age at death.
Any ideas please
Bev
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Hi,
Where are they in the census?
Perhaps Sarah had been married before.
Heather
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Hi,
Where are they in the census?
Perhaps Sarah had been married before.
Heather
The 1881 census shows the family living at 329A Oldham Rd, Newton, Prestwich reg district
William is a glass blower (this was confirmed by my Grandmother who spent many hours with her maternal Granddad)
The household was as follows:
Wm. Taylor 27 Head born Manchester Glassblower
Sarah Ann Taylor 24 wife born Hulme
Emily Taylor 7 daug born Salford scholar
Thos.Edward Taylor 2 son born Newton Heath
Edward Taylor 10 cousin born Birmingham scholar
From the age of Sarah Ann at the birth of her daughter, I wouldn't have thought a previous marriage was possible. I have Emily's birth certificate, she is my Gt Grandmother. William is named as her father. William is also a glass blower on the birth certificate. Which is how I traced Emily's certificate and the census. Not many William Taylor with that very same combination :D
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Hello,
You say they married but you haven't found the marriage. Is that right?
Have you checked the spelling of her name on the other children's birth certificates?
Regards
Heywood
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This is what I have found so far, (other than the 1881 census) the older census are unconfirmed due to not being able to differentiate....
Name: Sarah Ann Rathbone
Birth Date: 21 Mar 1855
Baptism Date: 31 May 1855
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's name: Joseph Rathbone
Mother's name: Sarah Rathbone
which ties with this:
Name: Sarah Ann Rathbone
Registration Year: 1855
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 271
HOWEVER
Name: Sarah Ann Rathbone
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 8 Oct 1854
Baptism Place: St. George, Hulme, Lancashire, England
Father: Joseph Rathbone
Mother: Sarah Clarke
But I ruled them both out (maybe I'm wrong) because I found this marriage
Name: Sarah Ann Rathbone
Age: 21
Birth Year: abt 1855
Marriage Date: 2 Jun 1873
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's name: Joseph Rathbone
Spouse's Name: William Hott
Spouse's Age: 18
Spouse's Father's Name: John Hott
and this one
Name: Sarah Ann Rathbone
Birth Year: abt 1856
Age: 21
Marriage Date: 31 Dec 1877
Parish: Manchester, St Philip
Parish as it Appears: St Philip Manchester
Father's name: Joseph Rathbone
Spouse's Name: Charles Kitchin
Spouse's Father's Name: William Kitchin
Now why oh why did both Sarah Ann's have to have parents named Joseph and Sarah!
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I haven't been able to locate the marriage certificate, nor birth certificate for Sarah Ann Rothbourne, or in fact for William Taylor - but circa 1854 it is almost impossible to locate him specifically ;D
Bev
William's brother, James looks to have married Mary Ann Ryan. On the marriage record at St Philip's church, his father is given as Edward Taylor. A witness is Mary Ann Taylor.
1871 159 /4034 / 39
Has a family which fits - parents Edward and Ann with children William, James and Mary Ann.
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Charles and Sarah Ann Kitchin appear in 1881 census so that Sarah A can be ruled out.
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Joseph, father of Sarah A who married William Holt was an iron planer.
This matches Joseph and Sarah at
1861 112 /2958 / 100
I can't yet see the Holts in 1881 - I think it is Holt not Hott on actual marriage record.
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1871
29 Mt Crescent,Chorlton on Medlock
Joseph Lomax 33
Jane Lomax 29
Florence Jane Lomax 4
Mary Elizabeth Lomax 1
William Urquhart 22 Painter
William Taylor Boarder unmarried 18 born Manchester Glass ?????
Robert Harkness 29 Painter
RG10/3988/5/4
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1861
14, Lower Canal Street Cottages, New Cross, Manchester
Edward Taylor Head born Warrington 45 Glass Maker
Ann Taylor Wife 45 born Manchester
Martha Taylor 21 born Manchester Reeler in Cotton Mill
Catherine Taylor 16 born Manchester Reeler in Cotton Mill
Thomas Taylor 14 born Staffordshire Glass Maker
Margaret Taylor 10 born Staffordshire Scholar
William Taylor 8 born Manchester Scholar
James Taylor 5 born Manchester
RG/9/2934/75/26
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1851
8 Giles Street
Edward Taylor 35 born Warrington Glass Blower
Ann Taylor 36
Martha Taylor 12
Edward Taylor 10
Catharine Taylor 7
Thomas Taylor 4
Mary Ann Taylor 1
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This sounds like my William, he never remarried after Sarah Ann died, Emily looked after her dad and siblings instead of going to school.
I still think Sarah Ann would have been too young to have married previously, before Emily was born.
My grandma used to tell me her mum, Emily was always afraid of gypsies, she used to think they would come for her to take her back with them. Coul this have been a general fear or a specific fear? Was her mums family travellers? And how would I find out 😀
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1851
8 Giles Street
Edward Taylor 35 born Warrington Glass Blower
Ann Taylor 36
Martha Taylor 12
Edward Taylor 10
Catharine Taylor 7
Thomas Taylor 4
Mary Ann Taylor 1
This seems to be before William was born, but he would probably have followed his father in trade
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That was the family I found for William and I would say it is correct due to brother James' link.
I did find a Sarah Ann with a mother Ann living the right side of Manchester but no mention of Hulme as a birth place. I will go and look for her again.
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Here we are.
1861 2935/ 96 / 27
70 Canning Street New Cross
Ann Rathbone 39 yrs widow b Settle, Yorks
Mary Rathbone 16 yrs cotton weaver
John Rathbone 14 yrs glass boy
William Rathbone 7 yrs
Sarah A Rathbone 5 yrs
Samuel J Rathbone 2 yrs
Children born Manchester
1871 the family are at 128 Mill Street
1851 the family are in Canning Street and father is Joseph ::)
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Sarah Ann Rathbone
Birth Registration
Apr-May-Jun 1855
Registration District Manchester
Volume 8D Page 271
Sarah Ann Rathbone
Birth Registration Apr-May-Jun 1856
Registration District Manchester
Volume 8D Page 128
Sarah Ann Rathbone
Birth Registration Apr-May-Jun 1854
Registration District Chorlton
Volume 8C Page 607
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Samuel Joseph Rathbone baptised 6th February 1859 at St Jude, Ancoats
Mother Ann
Canning Street
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Death registered in 1858
Joseph Rathbone aged 37 Ancoats
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1881
43 Reather Street
Mary Rathbone Head 36
Samuel Joseph Rathbone Brother 22
Annie Dineley Lodger 39
Jane Annison Aunt 61 born Ireland Not sure about this person, she might belong to the next household.
RG11/3999/107/37
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There may be more Sarah Anns though. We are crossing them off the list though ;)
Bev,
It would be worth checking other children's birth certificates. As you point out Sarah Ann may have been illiterate but if the certificate you have is a typed copy, then there could be errors in the transcription.
Heywood
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Here's the other Sarah Ann we had earlier.
1876 marriage James Ingram and Sarah Ann Holt.
1881 the Ingrams are living in Pearson Street with children and mother in law Sarah Rathbone.
So that accounts for the Holts.
It also does show that people can remarry within a short time of first marriage.
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Here's the other Sarah Ann we had earlier.
1876 marriage James Ingram and Sarah Ann Holt.
1881 the Ingrams are living in Pearson Street with children and mother in law Sarah Rathbone.
So that accounts for the Holts.
It also does show that people can remarry within a short time of first marriage.
I agree, one of my Gt Gt Gt Granddad's did, but William never remarried after Sarah Ann died, that much is known for certain. His oldest daughter and her family are with him on the 1891 census, he is still unmarried, and again 1901 and 1911.
Sarah Ann seems to be too young to be married prior to her marriage to William.
Samuel Joseph Rathbone baptised 6th February 1859 at St Jude, Ancoats
Mother Ann
Canning Street
possibly Sarah Ann's brother, determining which of the birth's is my Sarah Ann is proving difficult
There may be more Sarah Anns though. We are crossing them off the list though ;)
Bev,
It would be worth checking other children's birth certificates. As you point out Sarah Ann may have been illiterate but if the certificate you have is a typed copy, then there could be errors in the transcription.
Heywood
One by one, ;) yes, we are crossing them off - Thank you all for your help and input, I've had a busy family weekend, but head is back into searching mode and I'm going through all the info you have found for me - sieving it through to find her ;D ;D
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A quick little update, I still haven't managed to trace which Sarah Ann Rothbourne/Rathbone is mine, but her hubby William Taylor, I have now located his family on the 1841/51/61 censuses. AND his parents marriage in February 1837 - just before the statutory registrations... Edward Taylor and Ann Harrison.
Thank you everyone, Sarah Ann is still a brick wall to climb over, but I am getting there! All your help is much appreciated!
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Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can help unravel this puzzle with me please. My 2nd Great Grandmother is Sarah Ann Rathbone. She was born about 1856 (ish) and it appears she might not have married my 2nd Great Grandfather William Taylor - any proof to the contrary gratefully accepted. She had their first child James Joseph Taylor in Jan 1873, and the baby died pretty soon afterwards buried in Philips Park cemetery on 8th Mar 1873 - her name is spelt RATHBURN, and she had him in Manchester. She had my Great Grandmother Emily Taylor on 1st Apr 1874 in Salford (I'm assuming she went home to mum, older sibling or aunt for the birth) - and her name is spelt Rothbourne. She had William in 1876, he died and was buried 14/11/1877 again in Philips Park cemetery, her name is spelt RATHBURN and in the same year she had Walter, her name spelt RATHBORNE in Apr and he died and was buried 5th Apr 1877 in Philips Park (I should add all pauper graves). She then had Thomas Edward in 1879, her name spelt RATHBURN - then John in 1881, and finally Ethel in 1884 her name spelt the same. Sarah Ann appears in 1881 on the census as Sarah AnnTaylor age 24 years with husband William, 7 year old Emily and 2 year old Thomas Edward. Unfortunately Sarah Ann died 17th November 1888 so she doesn't appear on the 1891 census, but William registered her death as the widower of Sarah Ann Taylor, her age 31 years.
Now for the puzzle. I, along with help from Roots chatters and my lovely 2nd cousin managed to find only 3 likely candidates for Sarah Ann Rathbone - born 1854, 1855, and 1856.
The first of these has parents Joseph and Sarah Clarke, the second has parents Joseph and Sarah Morris and the third has parents Joseph and Ann Hunt.
The daughter of Sarah Morris married a man named William Holt, who died and she remarried James Ingram I found Ms Morris as a widow residing with the family on the 1881 census.
Now one of the other girls married Charles Kitchen. Having traced the girls through each census, it seemed as if this girl was the daughter of Ms Clarke. And that my Sarah Ann, was the daughter of Ms Hunt, whose husband died in 1858 when Sarah Ann was only 2.
However, a friendly genealogist has suggested that my Sarah Ann is the daughter of Ms Clarke and that they are from Cheshire. It has now become a tangle with no ends it seems, and I'm at a loss as to which way to go with this. It seems to me, that my Sarah Ann had Emily in Salford for a reason, and Rathbone/Clark family do not seem to fit. UNLESS, and I've been told I'm wrong, that Joseph Rathbone's parents are John Rathbone and Sarah Davis who married in Manchester and lived at least for a time in Salford....
Any ideas are most welcome - and thank you for reading.
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Here is link to previous RC thread
topics now merged
Pheno
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Here is link to previous RC thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=723888.msg5683680#msg5683680
Pheno
aw... thank you... I wondered where it had gone - how do I copy and paste this into it? I'm not actually looking for Sarah Ann - I found her - like buses - three at once ::) ;D ;D
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If you want this thread merged with your earlier one just click report to moderator (Bottom right hand corner of your post) and ask them to merge it.
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If you want this thread merged with your earlier one just click report to moderator (Bottom right hand corner of your post) and ask them to merge it.
thank you Rosie
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On Lancsopc.
Marriage 6th September 1843 St Mary the Virgin. Eccles Lancashire
Joseph Rathbone of full age Machine Smith Batchelor Pendleton
Anne Hunt full age Spinster Pendleton
Grooms father John Rathbone Blacksmith
Brides father John Hunt Spinner.
Sara Ann Rathbone mmn Hunt June Qtr 1856 Manchester 8d 128.
Marj
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Hi
Re Census info for Rathbone family.
Heywood has found this family in Census 1851/61/71 see reply 14
Marj
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Here is link to previous RC thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=723888.msg5683680#msg5683680
Pheno
aw... thank you... I wondered where it had gone - how do I copy and paste this into it? I'm not actually looking for Sarah Ann - I found her - like buses - three at once ::) ;D ;D
Hello again,
What or who are you looking for now please?
Heywood
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Here is link to previous RC thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=723888.msg5683680#msg5683680
Pheno
I have the family on all the census - it is trying to split them into which is mine. I've been speaking to a lady who is/has done a one-name study of Rathbone and variants and she believes my Sarah Ann is the one born to Sarah Clarke and Joseph Rathbone in 1854... hopefully this will solve my Sarah Ann problem - Now if I could only find her marriage to my second great grandfather William Taylor circa 1872/3 I'll be very happy.
Thank you everyone
aw... thank you... I wondered where it had gone - how do I copy and paste this into it? I'm not actually looking for Sarah Ann - I found her - like buses - three at once ::) ;D ;D
Hello again,
What or who are you looking for now please?
Heywood