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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: kizzy1259 on Friday 26 June 15 13:15 BST (UK)
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I have hit a brick wall in my family tree & was hoping someone might be able to help. I'm trying to find out who the parents of my 2nd great grandmother, Roseann Hughes were. She was born abt 1837 in Paisley, Renfrew. On Roseanns marriage to William Gray in 1860, her parents are recorded as John Hughes & Margaret Robertson but on her death certificate in 1890 they are recorded as John Hughes & Ellen McCormick. I've been unable to find a marriage for John to either of the woman & Roseann doesn't appear on any census before her marriage in 1860. Appearing as Rosina, Rosean & Rosanna on other censuses, I've tried every search I can think of at Scotlands people centre & have tried searching for other siblings but have found nothing. Any ideas of what else I can try?
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One possibility which I can think of, based on one of my searches at a similar date. Could one of the parents died relatively young? and then the widowed person then re-marries again.
Or alternatively, the mother dies in childbirth.
Am I right in thinking that sometimes young widows would sometimes marry their brothers-in-law?
Life expectancy in those days tended to be less than it is now.
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Is this roseann on the 1851 census as Ann
Address 9.School Wynd Paisley
John Hughes b 1811 Ireland railway porter
Margaret Hughes b 1823 Ireland
Ann Hughes b 1836 Paisley
Mary Hughes b 1844 Paisley
Agnes Hughes b 1847 Paisley
James Hughes b 1849 Paisley
Welcome to rootschat :)
Maybe her parent's were married in Ireland
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What was her address on her marriage certificate was it 24,Douglas Street Govan Partick as I think the same family are there in the 1861 census
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Hi All,
Marriage showing in Lanarkshire 1876:
John Hughes & Helen McCORMICK
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You could try for a death for her father John Hughes to see if he has been married before maybe Ellen was the first wife ? or maybe the informant just got the information wrong when registering the death :)
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Hi All,
Marriage showing in Lanarkshire 1876:
John Hughes & Helen McCORMICK
Well done Br1gau ;D ;D
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Death showing in Lanarkshire 1875
Margaret Hughes, other name Robertson
;D ;D ;D
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Thanks for all your replies. Rosie17 I have looked at that 1851 census before and have tried to verify the siblings but no luck..... maybe I'll need to have another look. Roseanns address in 1860 was Rumford Street so not sure if its the same family. I have a possible death for John in 1869 living at 136 High St, Glasgow but records no parents & no spouses name - only that he was married. As for the marriage & death Br1gau, I'm afraid I already have those certificates & they are both wrong. The age of John on the marriage makes his birth after his daughter & the death records Margarets husband as Patrick Hughes. I've spent so much time looking for this family, maybe I should just call it a day. Strange theres no 1841 or 1851 for the family. Thanks again everyone :)
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Hi Kizzy, It appears you have a definite link between a John Hughes & Margt Robertson and a John Hughes & Ellen McCormick as per the death you have of Roseann Gray (nee Hughes). That link appears to be because Margt died in 1875 and John remarried to Ellen. That being the case, the death you have of John Hughes in 1869 is NOT the one you want. The marriage of John and Ellen took place in 1876 so perhaps someone can find them in subsequent censuses and then maybe you can find his correct death.
It pays not to be too literal with the certificates you find. The information disclosed is only as accurate as that known by the informant. Ages can be notoriously out by significant amounts because those offering that information in some cases had not a clue. The same goes for the names of parents who may have been long gone or left behind in Ireland for example. The best point to start with is what you already know and that is that you have a definite link between John Hughes, Margt Robertson and Ellen McCormick and that means you don't have John's death cert yet. I have experienced all these anomalies myself over the years and I now know that even though you expect a certificate to be positive proof its not always the case. Sometimes you just have to put all the pieces together. Don't despair, you're getting warmer. :)
Sage.
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Hi Kizzy ...Is that your tree on Ancestry with the same family from the 1851 census ? do you think you could let us know what John Hughes occupation was from the certificates you have ..And also the address where he was living ... :)
Rosie
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Hi Rosie, yes that's one of my trees on ancestry and I haven't updated that one in a long time. I have a more detailed private tree. on Roseanns marriage in 1860 she was living at 24 Rumford Street Glasgow & parents John Hughes & Margaret Robertson were still alive. His occupation was a boiler maker. On her death in 1890 shes a widow living at 301 Baltic St. John Hughes & Ellen McCormick are both deceased & Johns occupation was a railway engine driver.
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Where was the parent's living at the time of their death any clues with the informants ...not having much luck here ???
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Haven't got a clue am afraid. I've given you all the info I have and I can't find a birth record for Roseann. All censuses I have for Roseann are after her marriage and can't find any census for the parents. So frustrating eh!! Thanks for trying to help me though :)
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I don't have death records for any of the parents Rosie. The death record for Margaret that was suggested earlier was the wrong one. She was married to Patrick Hughes & her age would mean she wasn't born til 10 years after Roseann. The possible record I have for John Hughes death has him living at 136 Main Street Glasgow, says hes married but gives no spouse name. There are no parents names either & informant is Tom Eadie, Keeper of Museum so no clues there either. He was 47 on the death cert in 1869 making his birth 1822 so that's about the correct age for the John I'm looking for but nothing to verify it
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Yes it's getting a bit complicated and quite expensive if you are using up lot's of credits if you are near the Scotlands People centre Edinburgh or Mitchell Library it would work out better for you ..You said you were looking for a birth year of 1822 for John Hughes that would make him 15 when his daughter was born ?
Rosie
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Should have added you might never find a birth for Roseann unfortunately a lot of births were not registered before 1855 ..Just need to keep looking for something ???
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The censuses have Roseanns birth any where between 1837 & 1841 so was hoping it could be Johns death cert. I have been to Scotlands People loads of times & spent many hours going through records but no luck with any of that families missing info. I give up!!! I really appreciate you trying to help. Thank you :)
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Hi All :)
Kizzy, although Roseann states Paisley as her birth place, this may not be correct. I found this entry in 1851 (from the transcript). Everyone showing as born in Ireland:
James Heughs 40 lab agri.
Daniel Heughs 28 son
Biddy Heughs 18
Henry Heughs 13
Margt Heughs 34 Wid (widow?) cousin
Rossanna Heughs 13 niece bleacher b. Ireland
Patrick Heughs 10
Margt Heughs 8
Biddy Heughs 3
Address: Dovewthall, Paisley Abbey
FreeCen also have this entry for 1851 www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl. Clearer transcript although some issues still on how things have been recorded (just look the family group as HEUGHS) in Renfrewshire.
Monica
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Think this 1861 entry might fit with the family from 1851:
Margart Hughes 42 cotton reeler b. Ireland
Margaret Hughes 17 daughter cotton reeler b. Ireland
Bridget Hughes 11 daughter b. Ireland
Susan McGaire 30 boarder
Ann Coyle 13 boarder
Address: Gateside Village, Nielston, Renfrewshire
Kizzy, what showed on Rose Ann's marriage entry re her parents? What occupation was given for her father? Witnesses names? Guess it didn't show either of them as deceased otherwise you would know not to look for them! However, sometimes this info wan't recorded and can make searches harder for sure.
Monica
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...on Roseanns marriage in 1860 she was living at 24 Rumford Street Glasgow & parents John Hughes & Margaret Robertson were still alive. His occupation was a boiler maker. On her death in 1890 shes a widow living at 301 Baltic St. John Hughes & Ellen McCormick are both deceased & Johns occupation was a railway engine driver.
Sorry, see you gave this info already.
Monica
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Does anyone have access to the 1881 Scots census and can tell us if John Hughes and Helen/Ellen McCormick are together and if so, which district. If we can narrow down John's death between 1881 and 1890 when Roseann died and where he was living it might help.
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Kizzy, I know you don't like the look of the marriage between John Hughes and Helen McCormick because of John's age but could you please tell us his parents, her parents, their addresses and whether Helen was widowed please. Even finding Helen's death could give you a lead.
Do you have anything in the way of proof (witnesses or informants on certs) that tells you who Roseann's siblings are? Sometimes the names of the children can give you hints as to the names of the grandparents too if they followed the traditional naming pattern.
I know we sometimes discount things as being unlikely but then again often the proof is sitting right under our noses. ;D
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Just a possibility maybe Ellen McCormack was the first wife going by the naming of the first daughter for William Gray and Roseann Hughes ....Ellen Gray 20/9/1861 Bridgeton Glasgow
Kizzy have you checked the census forms for the remaining family of William and Roseann is this their son William Gray b 1877 in the 1891 census address 246,Nuneaton Street lodging with Elizabeth Scott is there some connection ? Noticed there was a Elizabeth Scott Gray born 1869 to William and Roseann..Had noticed a few of their family died young
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Yeah Rosie, I have details of all of William & Roseanns children & that is my great grandfather, William Gray, living with Elizabeth Scott. William also had a sister named Elizabeth Scott Gray who died aged 5 months. William Gray b 1876 married Mary Caroline Fennelly/Findlay & they also had a daughter named Ellen so am thinking you could be right :)
Sage I've attached the certificates I'm convinced are the wrong ones. I know dates can often be wrong but these dates are way out. As for witnesses or informants on the certs I have for Roseann - informant on death was Ellen Gray, daughter & witnesses for marriage were James Morrison & Sarah Gray so no clues there. I think your right though - I'm probably missing something really obvious!!
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Kizzy you certainly gave us a curly one ;D
I'm guessing you've probably got Roseann on the 1861, 1871 and 1881 censuses? Do they all concur with the birthplace being Paisley?
Thanks for posting excerpts of the certs...you're right, they don't look promising! The John Hughes that marries Ellen McCormick, aside from his age not agreeing, is also a bachelor.
When Roseann married did she have an occupation? Monica added a couple of censuses for you to look at and I wondered if maybe the occupations agree.
Aside from that do Wm and Roseann use any surnames other than Scott when naming their children that might shed some light?
Sorry to fire all these questions but hoping for some light at the end of the tunnel. ::)
So what was Elizabeth Scott's relationship to William Gray (your great grandfather)?
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Sage yes I have Roseann on 1861,71 & 81 census all saying birth was Paisley, Renfrewshire so that make me doubt the 1851 census where Roseann appears as niece, occupation bleacher born in Ireland. Her occ on marriage was a power loom weaver. As for William & Roseanns other children - they only gave 1 other child a middle name - Emma Gee Gray. Now, you asked about Elizabeth Scotts relationship to William Gray. That's one you've got me wondering about now! Definitely one for my next visit to Scotlands people.
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That's good Kizzy...I was just thinking it's likely we may not be able to resolve this mystery if we don't come at it from all angles. That's why all the questions! I'm wondering if Elizabeth Scott was maybe related to Roseann's mum given that her daughter also had the name Elizabeth Scott Gray.
I think your biggest breakthrough will be via John Hughes' death. I take it you've looked at more John Hughes death records than just the 1869 one? I had a couple of credits left so looked for John Hughes dying between 1855 & 1895, born 1820 with a 10 year range resulting in 49 matches. It's possible to eliminate a lot of them because I did an all districts search. I was thinking that if you came back with the consistent evidence of Roseann being born in Paisley that the original 1851 census posted in School Wynd Paisley was probably the most likely for the family we are seeking. That census indicates that John was aged 40? so born about 1811. Can you eliminate any more John Hughes death records that you might have looked at?
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I think going by the census for Elizabeth Scott I think she was Elizabeth Steven married a William Scott 17/6/1864 Calton Glasgow.. Think this is the same Elizabeth Steven b 1843 Paisley occupation cotton thread winder ...address 40 Orchard Street Renfrewshire sister in law
William Gray age 31 born Monkland Lanarkshire occupation iron turner
Isabella Gray b1832 Paisley wife so most probably Elizabeth's sister
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Did John Hughes have a middle name?
My father was also a John Hughes, But helpfully he had a very unusual middle name. His grandmothers surname.
The fact that it was a very rare surname was of great help in tracing my ancestors.
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This census for 1851/1861 for John Hughes and Margaret have now discovered this Margaret maiden name is Madden ..Viewed the marriage record for the son James and it confirms his parent's as John Hughes and Margaret Madden ..This John Hughes died 1866 he was also previously married to a Ellen or Helen McManus ??? ??? Margaret's mother was Rose Ann McArtney all the names are there but the wrong surnames ::) ::)
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This is definitely the trickiest one I've come across!! It seems great grandfather William Gray was sent to live with William & Elizabeth Scott in 1891 after his parents Wm & Roseann both died. Ive found Wm & Elizabeth living at 301 Dalmarnock Road in 1871 - same address as Wm & Roseann in 1871. Wm & Elizabeths marriage gives no clues as to a relationship. It looks likely that the 1861 Elizabeth Steven is the correct one living with William & Isabella Gray but don't know how that William Gray ties in with my tree. I have my William Gray living with Roseann Hughes in 1861. I have been updating my public tree on ancestry & adding addresses & witnesses etc to see if it throws up any clues. Its named Gray-Angus if anyone has access to ancestry, maybe you could have a wee look in case I'm missing something obvious :)
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Did see that tree for Scott Kizzy will have a look at the Gray line and see if I can work out a connection :)
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You're a star Rosie :)
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Hi Kizzy and well done Rosie for all your hard work. What an absolute shemozzle this has all turned out to be! One simply doesn't know what to believe. ::)
I had temporary access to ancestry today and found a tree that might help. It has the same info that Rosie gave us re the Madden and McManus connections and I gather the family link is through Margt Hughes (daug of John and Margt b 1851) who married Hugh Tucker. It refers to the marriage of John Hughes and Margt Madden taking place at St Mirin's Catholic Church Paisley 23 Oct 1842 and apparently that's where Margt jnr was baptised too. Would these records be on S/P catholic records? Margt Madden's parents are said to be Patrick Madden & Rose Ann McArtney and Margt Hughes (nee Madden) died 10 Mar 1895...informant daughter Mary Keenan (nee Hughes).
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Thanks Sage I'll check that tree out. You never know. Thank you for trying the search for John Hughes death. I've spent loads of time going through dozens of certs at Scotlands People Centre but no luck yet. I did find this on freeCEN for 1841. Would make his birth abt 1817, has the same occupation as on Roseanns marriage record. They're living at Dale Street (which is where William Scott was living bef his marriage to Elizabeth Steven) dunno if theres a link there??!!
HUGHES Margaret F 25 England
MCARTHUR Mary F 9 Lanarkshire
HUGHES John M 24 Boiler Maker England
ADSHEAD James M 25 Boiler Maker Lanarkshire
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Ha ha...you sure you want to confuse the English for the Irish along with all the other anomalies we have with this family. ;D
Rosie has some knowledge about the death of John Hughes in 1866...which district was that death in? Partick aged 56 or Calton aged 55? Did it name John's parents?
The tree I spoke of only has Margt on it (daug of John and Margt Hughes) which leads me to believe that the same details are on her marriage cert to Hugh Tucker as was on James' marriage cert so at least that shows some consistency at last!
Who knows, we might get to the bottom of this yet. ::)
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This is the possible death I have for John Hughes. Unfortunately nothing to verify it
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Hi Kizzy,
Perhaps Rosie will be able to give us some more info on the 1866 death...maybe there was an informant on that one that we recognise.
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Hi Kizzy,
Perhaps Rosie will be able to give us some more info on the 1866 death...maybe there was an informant on that one that we recognise.
The information came from online tree 1866 Partick Glasgow father John Hughes mother Margaret McDonald
Kissy did notice the address for both families on the 1871 census at 301 Dalmarnock Road ..
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Thanks Rosie...I have trouble with all the different districts of Glasgow. :)
I just thought the informant of the 1869 cert for John Hughes was unusual having an informant being the 'keeper of museum'. John Hughes we are researching has family and I would have thought it more likely that one of them would have been the informant. Do we know who the informant is on that cert?
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Thanks Rosie...I have trouble with all the different districts of Glasgow. :)
I just thought the informant of the 1869 cert for John Hughes was unusual having an informant being the 'keeper of museum'. John Hughes we are researching has family and I would have thought it more likely that one of them would have been the informant. Do we know who the informant is on that cert?
The only thing I thought was maybe he had been in the poor house as a death on the same page was signed by the same person
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I suppose that's always a possibility. :(
I know the names are a bit strange on the 1866 cert but I tend to favour it given that James and Margaret Hughes (children of John and Margt) used the same names.
Where to from here? ???
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We don't know for certain who their children were another possibility maybe John was dead before the marriage of Rosesann and was not recorded as being deceased ..Maybe the census Monica found in 1851 with the mother Margaret being a widow ...so many if's and but's ???
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Rosie, you found a marriage for James...do you know if his age on the marriage agrees with the 2 year old (b about 1849 Paisley) as per the family at School Wynd, Paisley in 1851? And the Margt that I found on the tree today said to be born in 1851...is she on the 1861 census at 24 Douglas St Partick? If we can just find something the two families have in common in consecutive censuses maybe we can draw some of the facts together that way.
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The marriage for James Hughes address 20 Douglas Street age hard to make out 23 or 28 father John Hughes ship caulker deceased mother Margaret Madden witnesses Mary and Daniel ? married in the Catholic Church 1873 ... ???
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Hi All
Sorry to have not been able to add any more. Regarding the 1851 & 1861 entries I posted earlier, have tried to find children to Margaret being Patrick, Margaret and Bridget to see whether we could confirm relationship and also father's name but had no luck so far...
Monica
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Yes it's a bit of a mystery Monica tried all different roads ??? ???
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Thanks so much all for trying to help. I'm amazed at the response! I fear this one will never be solved though. Thanks again :)
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Hi, been looking at the posts and want to add something if I can. I came across the same Heughs family as MonicaL and thought it looked good, so began trying to trace them. Starting with the cousin James, I traced his son Henry in births(B 17 Feb 1838 Paisley)to James & Sarah Maguire.Went back to 1841 census & found Mrs Sarah Hughes listed with children Daniel 20,John 15,Rosanna 15,Jean 13,Susan 11,Elizabeth 5, & Henry 2.Then looked further and found the births of several of the children to James & Sarah;
Births;
Jane
bap:26 July 1825
Clonfeacle,co Tyrone
Susanna
bap:15 April 1828
Clonfeacle
Robert
bap:25 Sept 1830
Clonfeacle
Bridget
bap:25 Oct 1831
Clonfeacle
Eliza
bap:7 Oct 1832
Clonfeacle
Joseph
bap:6 Dec 1833
Clonfeacle
Then came across this:
John Hughes married Margaret Madden
23 January 1826
Clonfeacle,co Tyrone
also discovered the death of John Hughes(2):
John Hughes d 17 June 1847
John Hughes d 29 August 1849
* both occurred in reg district of Dungannon of which Clonfeacle a part.
found a marriage for John Hughes & Ellen McCormick:
23 March 1875
John Hughes
age:28
occ:iron turner-journeyman
bachelor
father:Patrick Hughes
mother:Maria McLaren?
Helen McCormick
age:26
occ:cotton power loom weaver
widow
father:Daniel McCormick
mother:Anne Forsyth
marriage took place Kinning Park,Glasgow
don't think this is who you seek as the ages are too young.This may be confused with someone else.Helen is used for Ellen in Scotland.
One other thing: I know on some certs you may have a person listed as widowed or not married and it can be totally wrong. Depending on who gives the info & the status of a familys relationships, makes all the difference. I went looking fo a GGGrandfather death pre 1896 as on his wife's death cert that year it was put that she was a widow and himself deceased.Couldn't locate the death for about 8 years then by a total fluke discovered that he had actually died 12 years after his wife but because of bad blood among some family members a son in law said he was dead.Also a son of his married in 1898,2 yrs after his mother died, & he also said his father was deceased. So never believe certs 100% either. Hope this helps (and doesn't add to confusion), Kim
also wonder, the Rosanna, who had as a boarder William Gray, who she subsequently married, is she daughter of John & Margaret or James & Sarah?
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Yeah I know your right, often the certificates record wrong info - maybe I'm focusing too much on the dates etc. You mentioned William being a boarder of Rosanna, are you confusing that with William being a boarder of Elizabeth Scott?
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Ok so back to the theory from earlier where John Hughes ties in with the details from another ancestry member where the wives surnames are Helen McManus then Margaret Madden, I contacted this member & she pointed me towards the catholic records. Seems John Hughes & Helen McManus had two daughters one born Ann in 1830 Paisley & the other Roseanne (which that member hadn't known about either) Roseanns reads as follows: Roseanne lawful daughter of John Hughes & Helen McManus born on the 13th Oct 1835 was baptised by me the 1st Nov 1835 upon sponsors John McCormick & Mary McLachlan. Anns is worded much the same born 3 May 1830 and sponsors were Daniel McCormick & Bridget McCallum. Is it just a coincidence that on both certificates one of the sponsors is a McCormick?
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Okay...that bears out the theory that the 'Ann Hughes' in the 1851 census with John & Margt Hughes is probably Roseann?
Could I ask who the informant is on Roseann's death cert?
Just a theory...perhaps Helen McManus' mother was a McCormick? That could explain why that name keeps popping up all the time though proving that's a whole different ball game. :)
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Sage the informant was daughter E. Gray
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Kizzy maybe you should look for the death for Margaret Madden /Hughes to see what it says to rule this person out ??? We seem to be going round in circles with this one
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Oh ye of little faith, Rosie...here was me hoping we could rule her in! ;D
The tree on Ancestry (I think Kizzy's been in touch with the owner) has Margt dying 10 Mar 1895.
Kizzy, do you feel that the birth info you got off the tree owner is what you were after? I know what we have is rather scrappy and circumstantial at best but I think the damage was done with all the incorrect information supplied by informants. Mind you, I have seen numerous certs where the mother's maiden name was used in error.
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I'm really not convinced that this is who we are looking for. The dates, places & first names match up but still nothing to verify it. Here is the death cert for Margaret Madden
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I tend to believe that this is Margt Hughes named in the 1851 census with John at School Wynd Paisley and we have James and Margt from this family have both declared their parents to be John Hughes and Margt Madden (per marriage certs) plus we have a daug Mary as the informant on Margt's death who appears on the 1851 census.
I would think the daug Ann on this census would be more likely to be Roseann than her sister Ann said to be born in 1830. I know we're hanging on by our fingernails here and actual proof is eluding us but there is some consistency in the mix...discounting some wild guesses by informants.
It was very cruel that by sheer coincidence the death of a Margt Robertson should occur in 1875 and a subsequent marriage of John Hughes to Helen McCormick in 1976...that threw us out completely! I have not a clue how 'Robertson' got into the mix of surnames...but I think the name McCormick is related in some way, most likely on the McManus side of things.
You might never resolve this to your satisfaction Kizzy but we've sure given a good crack. :)
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Yeah Sage, I think I'm going to call it a day on this one. Thanks everyone for all your efforts :)
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Don't think the Margaret Madden is any connection ...Maybe one day Kizzy you might find the correct parent's :D
Rosie