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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: Familytreeme on Saturday 27 June 15 00:12 BST (UK)
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Hello, I'm stumped, would love it if someone can help me with this one!
It's a bit of a convoluted story so I hope you can follow it!
I have a great, great, great grandmother Martha Wiltshire born in South Stoneham around 1839. Her parents were John Wiltshire (b 1814) and Harriet Wiltshire (b1815) . John and Harriet had the following children - Martha, James, Henry, Elizabeth, Charles and two further children Jane and Emma. I am interested in Jane in particular. She appears to have been born in 1856 according to the census of which she appears in the 1861 aged 5 and still at home with her father (Harriet died in 1861) but by the 1871 census she is 15 and in the workhouse. She then disappears completely.
This line of ancestry is on my grandmothers MOTHERS side of the family.
Fast forward to 1906 and my grandmothers FATHERS, father remarries very quickly as his wife has died and he is left with a lot of children. The lady he marries is an Annie Down. Her marriage cert States her father is a John Wiltshire and she is born in Southampton. (She has come to South Wales to marry my Great, great grandfather Herbert Clifford). Later on her neice May Bignell comes down to help, falls in love with one of the sons of Herbert, Reuben and my Nan is born. My nan can easily remember 'Nannie Annie' as she was known but interestingly her nieces would call her 'Aunt Jane'.
I'm sure that Jane Wiltshire and Annie Down are the same person despite the census showing Annie down living in Neath as having a birth date of 1861, not 1856 as Janes is. Coincidentally Harriet , Janes mother died age 46 in 1861, could she have died in childbirth and Annie given away?
It doesn't add up with the difference in birth dates though.
I'd love a bit of help if anyone is inclined please x
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Thinking about the birth dates for a moment I notice Jane aged 5 in 1861 is the last child written down and she is written under a sibling who is aged 2 ie not in age order as you would expect.
Sooooooo could she actually be 5 months or 5 weeks giving her a birth date closer to the one you want.
Have you found her actual birth registration?
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Can't find either birth Jane or Annie under South Stoneham nor can I find a marriage of a Jane or Annie Wiltshire to a Mr Down.
Can't see any births that would coincide with death of Harriet either. Not doing very well :-\
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Welcome to rootschat, familytreeme
Have you definitely found her age 15 in the workhouse in 1871, or does milliepede's 5months/5weeks in 1861 remain possible?
Added:
In 1871 Jane is 14 and Emma is 11, whilst in 1861 Jane was 5 and Emma 2, so 1856 birth stays, unfortunately.
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This looks like Emma's birth:
Births September quarter 1855 Jane Willshire S. Stoneham 2c 40
and Harriet's death:
Deaths March quarter 1861 Harriet Wiltshire S Stoneham 2c 31
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Have you found Annie Down/Wiltshire on any censuses other than 1911?
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There's a Jane Willshire, 23 working as a cook in Shanklin, IoW on 1881 ( RG11, 1183, 115, 26)
her place of birth is given as Southampton West End - I note the workhouse where your Jane was in 1871 was in Westend
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Think I;ve found Annie in 1901 in Abercarn. Ancestry have her has Doron, but image looks like Down. Aged 42, b Southampton, married to Thomas, b Plymouth c1865
RG13, 4968, 78, 41
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In 1891 Thomas appears to be Thomas W.
Possible marriage?
Marriages September quarter 1891 Thomas William Down Plymouth 5b 4_8
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If that's Thomas W Down b c1867, the draper's warehouseman on 1891, he's still in Plymouth with his wife Fanny in 1901
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I have my suspicions this is Thomas on 1891 - RG12, 1743, 68, 21. Right age, in Devonport, but b Exeter. The interesting thing is he is a groom, and Annie's husband is an ostler
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Thank you all, I have found a death certificate for a Jane Clifford ( as she would have been after her marriage to my great, great grandfather, in Neath, South Wales for 1947 ) which fits in with the info my Nanna tells me. I am almost sure Annie downs Is actually Jane Wiltshire but Im intrigued as to why she changed name. Also what's the family connection? Why would she marry Herbert Clifford and take on all his children when he only had months to live as it seems. My Nanna said she stayed and raised the whole family, staying until her death when she was 91 yr old
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Also, Annie down is listed on her marriage cert to Herbert as a spinster!
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Goodness it's rather baffling isn't it.
If she really was a spinster called Annie Down but with a father called John Wiltshire then is it possible John married again or had another relationship after Harriet died with a lady called Down who had a baby Annie. Probably not. Realms of fantasy now Jones!
I can't see any reason for a spinster to make up a different fathers name. Or make up a different name for herself if she had no previous history to hide.
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Yes, know its all rather puzzling. My nan who is now 88 would love to know how her Nanny Annie ( or Aunt Jane as others in the family on her mothers side called her) came to marry her paternal grandfather out of the blue after her real Nanna Selina died. Selina died young leaving a lot of young Clifford children, Annie/Jane came along and quickly married Herbert and he died months later leaving her with all the children to rear. It must have been planned, he must have known he was dying.
It's extra confusing as if Annie is actually Jane Wiltshire as i suspect then not only did her her niece May Bignell also marry into the Clifford but another neice Beatrice Joyce also married one of the Clifford boys too. My nan thought for a long time that there was some interbreeding but no looking at the tree it's not really like that but two families having more than one marrying into it.
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I should add that the Abercarn link may be correct, my nan says that there were strong links in the family to Newport / Caerphilly / Monmouth and that Herbert and Annie down marriage cert says they married in Newport. Herbert's first wife Selina was from there we think. I think her name was Selina Stephens but I can't find any link to Jane Wiltshire / Annie downs with her.
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Maybe because of the close relationships she made up a different name for herself? But then why give your real father's name especially if you were claiming to be a spinster - you would match your father's name to your own and say he was Mr Down.
Will have to sleep on this one but where do the nieces come from - May for instance was her mother a Wiltshire or is it more complicated?!
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May was a Bignell, but her gran was a Martha Wiltshire, sister of Jane / Annie. Her mother was a fanny browning, neice of Annie / Jane. May came up from Southampton to help her aunt Jane / Annie with the Clifford boys and she ended up marrying one ( Reuben).
Very puzzling indeed. Why state your fathers name as John Wiltshire when you've stated you are a spinster with the name Annie downs? Why did some members of the family call her aunt Jane when she made herself known as Annie? I found once census in 1911 where she is listed in Neath as Annie down but her birthdate is 1861, yet her death certificate in 1947 is for a Jane Clifford birthdate 1856. What did she hide in those middle years where she doesn't appear either as Jane or Annie.
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Is this May's marriage?
Marriages December quarter 1923
Elizabeth M Bignell Neath 11a 1916
Benjamin R Clifford Neath 11a 1916
and May's granny's marriage:
Marriages September quarter 1863
John Browning S.Stoneham 2c 109
Martha Willshire S. Stoneham 2c 109
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Yes they are x
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Sorry - wrong thread
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And Benjamin (Reuben) father Herbert married Selina Stephens and had all the children. Selina was from Newport, Monmouthshire - they were married in 1885 and stayed in Newport area until between 1892 - 1895 when they moved to Neath. Selina died in 1905 leaving Herbert with all the children. Herbert must have known he was dying too as he married Annie Downs (JaneWiltshire?) in 1906 then died a few months later in 1906.
The marriage of Herbert and Annie took place in Newport despite the fact that Herbert and Selina were both living in Neath then. I have tried to find out if Selina is linked to Annie in some way - Annie must have known the Newport side of the family I guess for them to have been married in Newport. I'd love to unravel how they knew each other and whether Annie really is Jane!
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Not that it helps solve the mystery, but what makes you so sure that Herbert knew he was dying?
A speedy remarriage after a man was left with a housefull of children to look after was very common.
They could well have planned a long life together, which was then cut short by a sad accident of fate
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You are correct, maybe he didn't know he was dying! My nanna does say that the family story is that Nanny Annie / Jane did marry him in simply in order to look after the children - it appears to have been a marriage of convenience. I guess Herberts death cert would say the cause of death? It would be interesting to see if he died suddenly or not
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Yes I was going to say the same thing. If we don't know what he died of then can't be sure marrying to be a mother to the children was a planned event.
Here is the death registration for Herbert if you were interested in getting the certificate.
Sep 1906
Herbert Clifford 44
Neath
11a 462
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Background on Selina her birthplace is given as Bassaleg Monmouthshire so she could be daughter of this couple.
1871 - all born Monmouthshire
William Stephens 40
Hannah 43
Elizabeth 18
Henry 14
William 10
Selina 7
Ellen 4
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1881
Harriet now not Hannah Stephens 53 widow
Henry 24
Harriet 22
William 20
Selina 17
Ellen 14
All the children are various tin plate workers
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There's a family tree with William Stephens marrying Hannah Waters. Nothing on any of the children apart from Henry who has a daughter named Selina.
Marriage Pontypool
Dec 1851
Trying to find a family connection but nothing yet.
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Thanks to all of you for your help, it's All very much appreciated. I'll ask my nan if she has Herbert's death certificate. she has a copy of the marriage cert of him and Annie so there is a chance she has the death certificate too.
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If she has the marriage perhaps you could note down the witnesses names - sometimes they can provide valuable clues.
Thanks for sharing this one it's most interesting :)
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The marriage cert shows two witnesses a Robert Joyce and an Ida Trigg. Interestingly Robert Joyce was Annie / janes nephew. Her sister Elizabeth's son. Roberts sister Beatrice also married one of Herbert's sons, Will. It's been a confusing tree to make!
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I've found a death registration of a Thomas Down in quarter 3,1901, born around 1866 so age 35 in Newport, Monmouthshire. I wonder if this was Annie's husband? I suspect that they weren't married though hence not being able to find a marriage cert for them. She must have just taken his name rather than appear as 'living in sin'. Still baffled as to how she got to know Herbert in order to marry him. I still think she must have known Selinas family in some way, got to hear about her death and stepped in to look after the children. A mystery I'll probably never get to the bottom of unfortunately!
My nan remembers her fondly as a big, no nonsense woman who was firm. She tried to forbid the Clifford boys to marry as she would have been left without any income if they left home. The boys did marry but Reuben looked after her and she went to live with Reuben and May and stayed with them until her death age 91 in 1947. Nan is saddened to think she spent time in the workhouse - this was never spoken about as she was a very private woman and didn't let on anything of her past to the children, she was a bit of an enigma, no one really knew where she had come from or anything about her past. My nan has photos of her, I'll get her to dig them out and post them on here.
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I've found a death registration of a Thomas Down in quarter 3,1901, born around 1866 so age 35 in Newport, Monmouthshire. I wonder if this was Annie's husband? I suspect that they weren't married though hence not being able to find a marriage cert for them. She must have just taken his name rather than appear as 'living in sin'.
A possible marriage was found at reply #8. Was that ever followed up to see if it was her?
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No, I didnt get the marriage cert. how do I go about obtaining it please?
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www.gro.gov uk
Quote the ref from the indexes