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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Lady_Clark on Monday 06 July 15 06:32 BST (UK)
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Hi, I was wondering if Clark or Stokes is a Is a traveller surname?? Or is it a Romany Surname?
Thank you!
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Hi. Ac. Welcome. As I see it's your first visit. I know of stokes in traveller circles. Trouble is. There are no real generic Romany names. In my family in one name there are five complete different spellings. As most were illiterate. Surnames were often. Altered. Also. Gorgio men. marrying a Romany woman often did/ do take her name. There are very old gypsy family names. Which can be traced back to 1600s. I.e. Lee. Smith's. Boswell. It goes on.These can be found on. A variety of sites. But try looking at those marrying into your family. And if they match up?. Also occupation. I.e horse. Dealers hawkers. Tinsmith. Pottery dealers. Etc. You may be surprised at how many people have a Romany connection. Romany genes is a good start site. But there are lots. Rob
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AC; Fatal. Every time I'm at a loose enough end to blow through here, I get snagged. Shouldn't complain. It gives me something to do. Normally reaching for " The Book Of Bob " ~ now more a dirty and loose pile of grubby pages I keep on the shelf. Here goes, look; (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/ptpc/BookofBob.gif)
Result! Clark(e) is a well known Gypsy surname, stretching back to the beginnings. We all know that. Irish though? Dunno.
Tell ye what I do know though; Plenty of english Gypsys came over here. In fact, there was a traditional stopping place they used, five miles from here. Up on the north east side of the town. The Irish had their place south of town. Couple or so miles away.
Here's the bit though; Bob records that Stoke(s) is indeed a surname found among Gypsys. And that it's been recorded in Ireland!
So, there's something for ye to get ye teeth into: Are ye dealing with " Irish Travellers "? Or English ones who popped over here ....?
Look at Rob's signature. Bit of Irish influence in there, look. My own people were back and forth too.
I'd be fascinated to, at least, look on as this whole area is probed a bit more. I think it needs probing 8)
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Irish Travellers and English ones. thanks. I was Wondering if anyone could tell me that if Clark is a Gypsy surname? Because my granny her last name is Stokes and her mother Hattie told her that she has some Gypsy origins.
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Irish Travellers and English ones. thanks. I was Wondering if anyone could tell me that if Clark is a Gypsy surname? Because my granny her last name is Stokes and her mother Hattie told her that she has some Gypsy origins.
When there's a story that someone has Gypsy ancestors it's often true but may not always be the line one expects.
I'd start by tracing Hattie's line back and see what you find.
Have a look at the Romany and Traveller Family History Society site http://rtfhs.org.uk/research_guide/ for some tips and try and read the SOG publication "My Ancestors were Gypsies by Sharon Sillers Floate" for more help.
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My gran came from Waterford, her last name was Rafferty
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Hi yes stokes is a very well known Irish surname especially for Irish travelers :)
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Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
I found your name attached to a tree of Christine Lynnette Creamore but it was put on in 2013, so though I would try you.
Do you know this person. As she might be the person I need to contact.
Regards
Margaret Stevens
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Hi, does anyone know of the name Seekin in the traveller communities, this one in the English sides.
Thanks Warren :o
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Are Manton or Perry Traveller surnames?
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EjillH; Rejoice and be merry :) Book of Bob (Click the little house under my avatar) lists MANTON as a name given by Gypsys 1695 - 1881, on and off. In NTH and WOR.
PERRY really hits the pay dirt! 1690 - 1963, on and off. BRK, ESS,GLS,HAM,KEN,OXF,SSX, WIL.
Something to get ye teeth into? 8)
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Thank you. Any record of these names in Ireland?
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Interestingly, Ejillh, Bob usually includes Ireland in his line up of places, when a name's found there. In this case, clearly, he hasn't.
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Is Leonard from Cavan a traveller surname?
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Book of Bob gives " Leonard " as a Gypsy surname, in 1881 Lancashire.
Interesting. I've no idea of his precise source.
What makes ye ask, Doug?
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My wife's family have always been told by family in England and in Ireland that the Leonard's were tinkers, travellers, and gypsies. I appreciate the feedback.
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That's fascinating! I'm in Leitrim. Cavan is a neighbouring county. We're not too far from Belfast or Dublin.
I also tend to tell people, in england ~ when discussing and comparing weather ~ that I'm about in line with Lancashire.
There are potential lines that need looking between, here ..... 8)
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Lowsley/ Lousley or variations found in Hull / Scarborough from 1800. DNA shows strong links with Ireland, and at least one Lowsley married into the Varey family which is a Romany surname. Any help gratefully receive. Thankd
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Hi I’m not sure if I’m doing this right but when I was young my dad used to take me to visit an old gypsey woman Romany I think he said she was a relative I’m just wondering is ganley a gypsey name grateful for any help
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Michelle; Just clarify a little, here. Was this in Ireland? Was this ladies name Ganley?
Just wanted to get the facts in order. Thanks :)
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Sorry no it was in England but my dad said he had Irish family
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I see ..... So, the inference would be 'Irish Romani'. And he specifically said Romani, did he? Not Gypsy? And she was a Ganley?
Only, we've always had a good representation of British Gypsys here. (Just so happens I'm in Eire myself now) That is to say, as distinctive from the native Pav's.
But, Ganley isn't listed in 'The Book of Bob' (Click the little house, under my avatar) And nor do I personally recognise it as a Pavie name.
Where that leaves us, I really don't know. But, the usual, thorough and open minded, creeping search backwards from yeself might reveal the answers.
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Ahh I am really not sure I just remover she was a gypsey I was young and to be honest she scared me a bit lol guess I’ll never know just made me curious when reading this topic thanks for the help though
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Lee is an Irish traveller surname, they were very secretive people and stayed is special places in Irelan did not only or always travel
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I was told my great Grandad was an Irish Tinker. Tinkers did not like to be called a gypsy as people tended to bundle up Romany Gypsies and Irish Tinkers as if they were all the same traveling folk.
I have been trying to trace my ancestors, but it stops at Great Grandads sons and daughters who have been found by way of the registers.
Can anyone tell me if travelers would be in the parish records or not. I know my uncle was born in Limerick and Great Grandad was rumoured to be from Cork, but I have not found either him or his wife.
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Chuck out their names, at least, Mixbag. Ye never know.
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Joseph Frederick Ward born circa 1852 and Mary Elizabeth n'ee Oates
Migrated to England. circa 1885
The Oldest child was born at Ulverstone in 1885, so I am presuming they landed their from Ireland at around that time as the rest of the children were born in Kendal, then Barnsley.
I did find a reference to Queenstown(Cobh) as a port with ships going to Ulverstone
Strange what you find from census though, it would appear that they had wrote down he was from York, probably because they couldn't tell he was saying Cork because of the thick Irish accent, so attributed it to what they thought it was.
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Ward? Well, straight away, that's a name strongly associated with Irish Pav's. I'll ask around, today. Some names also carry a geographical connotation too
Funny, the idea that his accent may have tripped people up. I'm out of england and, only last week, I was happily chatting to a couple of local guys. Suddenly, mid flow, I caught them shoot eachother that look which clearly stated: " No. I haven't got a clue what he's on about either! " ;D
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Mixbag; Just to let ye know, I didn't come up with any particular leads, today, unfortunately. Ward appears to be a pretty well spread name, here.
But, there ye go. Inconclusive? Maybe so. But, at least no one's peeing on ye parade :) Ye've got the family rumour. The name fits the bill. It walks like a duck (bill).
Keep digging.
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Thanks for checking.
I found his mothers surname was Rooney, 1 step at a time closer
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Rooney is, again a known, Pav surname!
Keep chipping away there, Mixbag. Looking like there could Well be some substance to ye family tales ;)
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HI been a Christmas break, but back with more. :)
great great Grandad was called Patrick Ward and his wife was Alice Rooney. Family rumour was he was King of the Irish Tinkers. We traced there eldest 2 children to Drogheda (1842 & 1844), but at that point the trail goes cold. The only 2 Alice Rooney's from that area are one baptised in Dublin and the other was Dunshaughlin. However just because the children were baptised in Drogheda, doesn't mean they were from that area, but it is where the trail grows cold.
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Drogheda's out on the east coat. Road runs straight from there into Dublin.
Just so happens that my people regularly traveled the south coast of england. Road between Brighton and Poole, even as far as Exeter.
So, if ~ for the sake of comparison ~ we apply that stencil to your folks; We have a precedent that it may be entirely possible that they traveled between any two points, up and down their own coast road.
In fact, the entire East Coast Road. Anywhere between Dundalk and Wexford falls within their realm of feasibility. Dublin would be easy, peezy.
Maybe something worth putting in ye shoe box?
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Interesting stuff, I know the family had ties all over the place, including Cork and Limerick (where my uncle was born) I can imagine they had a long and circuitous route.
Just out os interest, to you maybe. I found this https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/themes/subjects/diversity/grt/
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My grandmother Ivy Edith Dalton (born Crayford Kent; 1904 - 1988) always maintained that she was related to Romany gypsies including "Gypsy Rose Lea". She had visions and premonitions as did my mother and me and my sisters. Her mother was Louisa Crockford and her grandmother was called Ellen Donavin (1846 - 1917). I wondered if Ellen might be Irish and a Romany?
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Kathy; DALSON / DALTON was a name given, by Gypsys, in 1891 (According to Bob Dawson) in ESS, HRT, KEN, LDN.
Fits 8)
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My grandmother Ivy Edith Dalton (born Crayford Kent; 1904 - 1988) always maintained that she was related to Romany gypsies including "Gypsy Rose Lea". She had visions and premonitions as did my mother and me and my sisters. Her mother was Louisa Crockford and her grandmother was called Ellen Donavin (1846 - 1917). I wondered if Ellen might be Irish and a Romany?
Possible, but Romany gypsies didn't start going to Ireland until the early 1900's. However, as a lot of Irish both Settled and Pavee came to the UK for work in the industrial revolution, as evidenced from my own research, then its possible that the Romany side with the Irish name began in England.
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Possible, but Romany gypsies didn't start going to Ireland until the early 1900's. However, as a lot of Irish both Settled and Pavee came to the UK for work in the industrial revolution, as evidenced from my own research, then its possible that the Romany side with the Irish name began in England.
Ireland was part of the U.K.
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So I said UK, when I later did say England. England is a country distinct and separate from Ireland, both of which formed what is known as the UK.
In the grand scheme of things, I am sure people take that as was meant.
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So I said UK, when I later did say England. England is a country distinct and separate from Ireland, both of which formed what is known as the UK.
In the grand scheme of things, I am sure people take that as was meant.
I think your reply has been changed slight from when I originally read it but Ireland being part of the U.K. does make a difference when trying to trace ancestors.
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I changed it because you may have thought it was offensive and again I am sure people reading this will know that Ireland was a part of the UK.
However when it comes to tracing ancestors it makes little difference, given that records were destroyed in the uprising, which occurred after the original earlier destruction of records by the English. In other words they would still have been destroyed regardless.
Whenever you look at the past, land borders should be ignored anyhow, given that people tended to move around even as they do now, not caring about borders. However sea boundaries are the only borders that did matter, as they presented a different factor.
As far as the question regarding the Romany Gypsies being in Ireland during the 1800's, that didn't happen because why would Romany gypsies go to a country that was in the grips of starvation for many years with the resultant exodus of 40% of its population fleeing to England and the northern American continent, for a better life.
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What is this book of bob? ???
Just wondering in oneil and Keenan are Irish traveler names?
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Puffin; O'Neil 1850 till present 8)
Keenan? 1891, in Durham. No record of exactly what type of Gypsy we're dealing with there. Could easily have been a Pav.
What is " The Book of Bob " ;D It's out of print now. My own copy's virtually a pile of loose pages ~ having long since fallen apart from constant leafing. Clicky. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Romany-Family-Aspects-genealogy/dp/1903418275)
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Puffin; O'Neil 1850 till present 8)
Keenan? 1891, in Durham. No record of exactly what type of Gypsy we're dealing with there. Could easily have been a Pav.
What is " The Book of Bob " ;D It's out of print now. My own copy's virtually a pile of loose pages ~ having long since fallen apart from constant leafing. Clicky. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Romany-Family-Aspects-genealogy/dp/1903418275)
Pav?
When you say 1850 to present, is that when they became travelers? How do you become a traveller? I have a lot to learn
My Keenan’s and O’Neil’s had left Ireland mid 1800s.
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A Pav (Pavee) is an Irish Gypsy.
How does one 'become' a Gypsy / Traveler? Depends on ones personal definition. Could vary from being directly descended from people who came out of India, a very long time ago.
Or, one could ~ last I knew ~ for example; Claim 'Gypsyship Under Statute'. There being a UK statute which defines what a Gypsy is. Basically, one who lives a normally nomadic existence and earns their living that way.
Can of worms there ..... :-X
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Oh, and, sorry: " is that when they became travelers? "
No. The dates Bob gives are just when he found an official record (Census or what ever) of a person declaring themselves Gypsys (or, perhaps, being found living in a tent or wagon) and proffering the given name.
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A Pav (Pavee) is an Irish Gypsy.
How does one 'become' a Gypsy / Traveler? Depends on ones personal definition. Could vary from being directly descended from people who came out of India, a very long time ago.
Or, one could ~ last I knew ~ for example; Claim 'Gypsyship Under Statute'. There being a UK statute which defines what a Gypsy is. Basically, one who lives a normally nomadic existence and earns their living that way.
Can of worms there ..... :-X
Well they don’t tell you all that on my big fat gypsy wedding!
So to become an Irish gypsy you had to lose your home and job & be nomadic, live by own means and camp?
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So to become an Irish gypsy you had to lose your home and job & be nomadic, live by own means and camp?
I've never watched that (Said to be) appalling programme. I did hear it said, though, that it pretty much Only featured Pav's.
I must say; Your idea of how one would become a Pav actually sounds just about spot on! :D I mean; I actually have virtually nothing to do with them, despite living here. But, they do have a completely different culture and even language.
The Irish govt. recently granted them " Ethnic " status, however. Under law then they are now considered distinct from 'normal', Irish people.
But, yeah, from what little I've ever gathered about them? It does seem reasonably well accepted that they are the descendants of Irish people, displaced (Some say by Cromwell) and who wandered ever since.
Doesn't take a genius, of course, to spot the anomaly there. But, I'm a grateful guest in this country and I'm not about to start second guessing the laws.
Don't want YouTube video's appearing, either; some hardy buck in a white vest, calling me out and saying he's steeped his hands in pitril! ;D
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So to become an Irish gypsy you had to lose your home and job & be nomadic, live by own means and camp?
I've never watched that (Said to be) appalling programme. I did hear it said, though, that it pretty much Only featured Pav's.
I must say; Your idea of how one would become a Pav actually sounds just about spot on! :D I mean; I actually have virtually nothing to do with them, despite living here. But, they do have a completely different culture and even language.
The Irish govt. recently granted them " Ethnic " status, however. Under law then they are now considered distinct from 'normal', Irish people.
But, yeah, from what little I've ever gathered about them? It does seem reasonably well accepted that they are the descendants of Irish people, displaced (Some say by Cromwell) and who wandered ever since.
Doesn't take a genius, of course, to spot the anomaly there. But, I'm a grateful guest in this country and I'm not about to start second guessing the laws.
Don't want YouTube video's appearing, either; some hardy buck in a white vest, calling me out and saying he's steeped his hands in pitril! ;D
Disclaimer - I only watch the wedding programme as they film a quite bit where I live.
I’d imagine there are a lot of gypsies created in Ireland due to all the poverty and troubles in the 1800s, I think it’s estimated around half the population left for either mainland England or the USA
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Hello, My Mother - in - Law asked me to look into her family history, especially the story that her Gt, Gt Grandfather met her Grandmother when he came over to Appleby Fair and that he was an Irish Traveller. I dont really know how to find out if this is true. I can certainly verify that he was Irish the census' has him born abt 1830 Banbridge, County Down. His name was Richard McCullough. Any help would be gratefully received
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Family oral tradition says we have a John Joseph WARD possibly from Galway. 2 sons born circa 1860's, County Donegal, Robert Thomas Ward and James Alexander Ward . Is WARD a tinkers name?
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Ward is a common surname among Irish travellers.
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My gr grandparents travelled around in caravans just wondering if there name Batty had any connection.
Thanks for reading.
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My grandmother was a Ward and she has proved difficult to find on a paper trail. She married a Power which isn't a traveller name and he was ok to find.
I get the impression that travellers arnt that fussed about documention. But oh how difficult when trying to build a family tree no birth certificate. How hum one day maybe. ☺
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You should be looking at the original surnames as Gaeilge/in Irish! The travellers had their own version of course but if they are Irish travellers and not gypsies then there should not be 'j,k,q,w,x,y,z' in the original name. E.g. king is normally mac an rí 'son of the King', Burke is 'de burca'. You should understand that names were anglofied and letters like v came from 'bh' etc. if you don't bother to look up the Irish alphabet then all this is is a guessing game.
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Also traveller names change depending on the county, Ward is a huge one in connacht but in Munster it is not seen as a travellers name. Burke is seen as a traveller name in parts of munster but a very common surname in connacht with no traveller connection.
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Sorry to be dumb - but can someone tell me the actual "definition" of a "Pav"??? What is a Pav - an Irish traveller? is it a name/description which is accepted or not ??
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After doing my Ancestry DNA it has opened up a whole new part of my heritage I never really knew existed. I have matches with not just Romany links but possible Irish travellers too.
I am relatively new too Romany/Irish traveller and searching which is not easy. As you can imagine I have a few surnames.
Melia-Co Mayo
Sharples- Co Galway
Oneill-Co Galway
Gehan-Co Antrim
Saunders-Co Mayo
Could any of these be Irish Travellers?
In U.K. around mostly Shropshire/Cheshire area names are
Parker-Shropshire
Simmons-Shropshire
Bradney-Shropshire
Jones-Shropshire
Smith-Cheshire
Twist-Cheshire
Pollard-Cheshire
Taylor-Cheshire
With so many DNA matches with multiple family names it’s mind blowing
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Hi
I have the names Purcell and Hunt both from the New Ross area in Co Wexford Michael Purcell has given his occupation as Tinker on his sons wedding certificate. Are Purcell or Hunt traveller/ tinker names.
I am a bit confused as I thought tinkers also moved from place to place but Michael Purcell had an address
Hope this makes sense
Thank you Carolyn
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ovs/
Census link lists people with occupation given as tinker.
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Hi
Thank you for the reply very interesting so quite a lot of Tinkers must have lived in one place. The date I have for the marriage is 1868 showing him as father of groom he is not on the census returns for 1901/11. His son Martin Purcell is the one who’s marriage I have but he came to England with his wife Mary and one daughter Annie the rest of his children including his son James (my gt grandfather) were born in England. All had labouring jobs except one who was a cobbler.
Thank for your interest
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Hello,
New to these threads and not entirely certain I am in the right area. I recently learned some of my family's surnames on my maternal side and heard stories of a family member who was possibly a traveller or a gypsy. I am not certain of everyone's counties but I have information on a few.
Antrim, the names were Mullen, Gilpin
I also have ancestors with the surnames Hull, and Neal (changed from O'Neal) later. My grandfather (his mother was Neal) was born under the name Bentley but received his stepfather's last name of Butler.
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I understand Ayres is a gypsy surname, but is it Irish? Likewise Walsh and Troy.
Thanks
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Yes, several Walsh (sometimes listed Welsh or Welch). My own were travelling musicians, tinsmiths and sweeps from the north of Ireland.
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Hi
Thank you for the reply very interesting so quite a lot of Tinkers must have lived in one place. The date I have for the marriage is 1868 showing him as father of groom he is not on the census returns for 1901/11. His son Martin Purcell is the one who’s marriage I have but he came to England with his wife Mary and one daughter Annie the rest of his children including his son James (my gt grandfather) were born in England. All had labouring jobs except one who was a cobbler.
Thank for your interest
Have you got a name for michael's wife?
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Have you tried the 1901 or 1911 census as Ward is a common Traveller surname around galway and the west of Ireland.
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Re Michael Purcell
I have not got a name for his wife the only other family member I have is his son Martin I do have an address of Windmill Lane New Ross Co Wexford . This is from griffiths valuation which I think was 1854 but I may be wrong with the date .Carolyn
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Hi all!
Is Joseph by any chance a traveller surname. My mother is from Ulster, Northern Ireland and we are trying to figure out what her family background is as she doesn’t know.
Thanks in advance
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hey does anyone know is Clayton a Romani or Irish traveller last name?
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My gran came from Waterford, her last name was Rafferty
I have an Irish ancestor who came from Waterford too whom I suspect may have been a Mincéir, but he kind of vanished in the 1920's somewhere in either around the Canadian border to New York or New Jersey. His surname is Marks, which I have seen on lists as a known Traveller surname.
Here is a compiled list of known surnames for Travellers & Romani families, which unfortunately includes a lot of very generic names that many gadje families have: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/celtic-traveller/about/background
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A Pav (Pavee) is an Irish Gypsy.
How does one 'become' a Gypsy / Traveler? Depends on ones personal definition. Could vary from being directly descended from people who came out of India, a very long time ago.
Or, one could ~ last I knew ~ for example; Claim 'Gypsyship Under Statute'. There being a UK statute which defines what a Gypsy is. Basically, one who lives a normally nomadic existence and earns their living that way.
Can of worms there ..... :-X
This is tricky, which is why I always specify Traveller vs Romani because the term G*psy is used by some Travellers to describe themselves, including my Nawken family, but since that term was originally created to describe Roma, I do not apply it to Travellers to avoid this exact confusion.
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My grandmother was a Ward and she has proved difficult to find on a paper trail. She married a Power which isn't a traveller name and he was ok to find.
I get the impression that travellers arnt that fussed about documention. But oh how difficult when trying to build a family tree no birth certificate. How hum one day maybe. ☺
Travellers are infamous for their poor documentation. Typically they appear on documents for births, baptisms, marriages, and deaths, but it gets confusing because they might intentionally obscure where they are from by changing birth places, dates, and names on different documents. My g. grandmother had one birth name that was the same as her mother's but then later, her name changed and that was the name she went by for the rest of her life. That seems like a common practice, which can make them incredibly difficult to track and verify.
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Sorry to be dumb - but can someone tell me the actual "definition" of a "Pav"??? What is a Pav - an Irish traveller? is it a name/description which is accepted or not ??
Pavee is one of two names that Irish Travellers use to describe themselves, the other being Mincéir, which comes from their cant language, Shelta.