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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Deirdre784 on Tuesday 07 July 15 19:56 BST (UK)
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Hoping someone can have a look at this for me, and let me know what you think…
Having found William’s 2nd marriage in 1920 (living at 13 William Street ::), Cilfynydd), father’s name not given, I didn’t really expect to get back any further but the 1918 electoral register gave his first wife’s name as Ellen. And there they were in 1911 (though not picked up on Ancestry).
I’ve found Ellen in 1891 and 1901 and am not looking for anything further on her.
This is ‘our’ William in 1911:
1911 RG14 32216 195
13 William Street, Cilfynydd, Pontypridd
William Williams, head, 25, 1886, married, coal miner/hewer, Pwllheli
Ellen Williams, wife, 27, married, Newboro, Anglesey
William Roberts, lodger
So looking back through the censuses I found:
1901 RG13 5265 35 19
Quay, Denio, Pwllheli
Margaret Griffith, Head, Single, Female, 60, 1841, Wash Woman, Bryncroes
Mary Ann Griffith, Daughter, Single, Female, 34, 1867, Char Woman, Pwllheli
William Williams, Son, Single, Male, 14, 1887, Butcher, Pwllheli
Laura Griffith, Daughter, -, Female, 6, 1895, -, Pwllheli
Robert Griffith, Son, -, Male, 4, 1897, -, Pwllheli
[Presumably William, Laura and Robert are Mary Ann’s children (or Margaret’s grandchildren)]
1891 RG12 4651 81 11
Mitre Place, Denio, Pwllheli
Margaret Griffith, Head, Single, Female, 51, 1840, Charwoman, Bryncroes
Mary Ann Griffith, Daughter, Single, Female, 25, 1866, - , Pwllheli
William Williams, Grandson, -, Male, 4, 1887, -, Pwllheli
Evan Griffith, Grandson, -, Male, 2, 1889, -, Pwllheli [can’t find Evan again]
1881 RG11 5557 50 23
Ysgiffton, Denio, Pwllheli
Margaret Griffith, Head, Single, Female, 37, 1844, General Servant, Bryncroes
Robert G or H Williams, Son, Single, Male, 12, 1869, Scholar, Pwllheli
[I can’t find Mary Ann in 1881]
1871 RG10 5705 30 9
Ala Rd workhouse, Denio, Pwllheli
Margaret Griffith, Inmate, Unm, Female, 28, 1843, Charwoman, Bryncroes
Mary Ann Griffith, Inmate, Unm, Female, 6, 1865, scholar, Pwllheli
Robert Griffith, Inmate, Unm, Male, 2, 1869, infant, Pwllheli
Ages vary a little and William's surname is Williams or Griffith but otherwise it all seemed to fit with no known father. But then I looked for Margaret and Mary Ann in 1911 and this has thrown me – clearly the same Margaret, Mary Ann, Laura and Robert as in the 1901 but who is the other William as mine is married and in Cilfynydd? And the info on the children, and Margaret a widow. Or have I got the wrong 1901 for my William?
1911 RG14 629 4
3 Glanafon Square, Sand St, Denio, Pwllheli
Margaret Griffith, Wife, Widow, Female, -, 71, 1840, Bryncroes [says married 20 years, 2 children, 1 has died, but this has been crossed out]
Mary Ann Griffith, Daughter, Single, Female, - 42, 1869, Pwllheli [says 3 children, all still alive, but crossed out]
William Griffith, Son, Single, Male, Sett Maker, 22, 1889, Pwllheli
Laura Griffith, Daughter, Single, Female, -, 16, 1895, Pwllheli
Robert Griffith, Son, Single, Male, Shop Apprentice, 14, 1897, Pwllheli
Any help much appreciated, with thanks.
Deirdre
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Hi
Reason why Ancestry 1911 did not 'pick it up' is that the surname has been mistranscribed as 'Williamas' .
Will submit correction.
Emyr
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I've just found a record on the Wales births and baptisms (1541-1907) for a Mary Griffith, born 25 Sep 1864 to Margaret Griffith in the union workhouse at Pwllheli. A bit earlier than I was expecting but given that Margaret and Mary Ann were in the workhouse in 1871 this could be her.
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Hi
Reason why Ancestry 1911 did not 'pick it up' is that the surname has been mistranscribed as 'Williamas' .
Will submit correction.
Emyr
Thanks Emyr, I found it on FindMyPast earlier, then used the previous record to find it on Ancestry.
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Hi
Have submitted correction.
With a common name and surname, and inaccuracy of recorded info, it makes it difficult to know whether or not you've got the right family. It appears to me that the first marriage was Pontypridd Registration District, Q3 1909, to Ellen Lewis - is that correct ? Do you know if there's a father's name recorded in first marriage? Problem is that it gets expensive buying these certificates. If you think of getting a copy best to check with the local Registry Office first to find if there is a father's name recorded.
Emyr
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Hi Emyr, I believe so, not 1910 as Ancestry has transcribed (though the census form does say 1 year 7 months). I wasn't intending getting the William / Ellen marriage - which I only discovered yesterday - as my husband is descended from his 2nd marriage, but that's a good idea. I'll email Pontypridd register office and ask them if there's a father's name on that certificate.
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Fantastic service from the RCT register office in Pontypridd - had a reply already to my email last night. But it was a surprise as yes, there is a father named - for both parties - on the William / Ellen marriage! So I've ordered the certificate and will eagerly await its arrival....
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Marriage certificate arrived this morning, William's father was William Williams (deceased), farmer.
Can't find them together in Pwllheli in 1891 though :(
Deirdre
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Hi
Been out since late morning, so it's now that I'm seeing your reply. The father's name being a common one makes it difficult, but on the plus side we know that he was a farmer.
I'll see if I can trace his family, but won't be till tomorrow. Just about to have my evening meal and have run a mountain race today which took me 1: 45:30 , so I'm a bit knackered being 70+ !
Emyr
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Hi
Been out since late morning, so it's now that I'm seeing your reply. The father's name being a common one makes it difficult, but on the plus side we know that he was a farmer.
I'll see if I can trace his family, but won't be till tomorrow. Just about to have my evening meal and have run a mountain race today which took me 1: 45:30 , so I'm a bit knackered being 70+ !
Emyr
Hi Emyr, well done on the race, hope you enjoy your meal and recover quickly :)
I meant to edit my post - but had to rush out - to say that of course his mother could still be the Mary Ann Griffith that I found earlier; might explain why her other children were Griffiths. Trying to find his birth registration might be difficult but would really help so I'll go down that search route for a bit.
Deirdre
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There were 28 William Williams births registered in Pwllheli in 1885/6/7 ::)
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If someone says they were born in Pwllheli, would you expect that to be the town or the wider (registration) area?
Just there is a family in Tydweiliog, Pwllheli in 1891 with a William (ag lab) and William son - RG12 4654 40 4 - and there may be others.
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Hi
Pwllheli Registration District covers very large area
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/pwllheli.html
Emyr
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Thanks Emyr, I realised that when looking for Tydweiliog on the map! Guess I'm back to my 28 William Williamses born around the time!
Deirdre
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Don’t know if this 1891c relates to your Williams family Registration district Pwllheli
Piece: 4653 Folio: 24 Page Number: 4
William Williams age 4 (no pob given)
other siblings Ann 12, Arthur 11 & Margaret 10 dittoed as born Aberdaron
Their father William’s occ Farmer, mother Ann
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Don’t know if this 1891c relates to your Williams family Registration district Pwllheli
Piece: 4653 Folio: 24 Page Number: 4
William Williams age 4 (no pob given)
other siblings Ann 12, Arthur 11 & Margaret 10 dittoed as born Aberdaron
Their father William’s occ Farmer, mother Ann
Thanks Ladyhawk, I'll try and follow that through to 1901 and 1911.
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You might have already found this but just in case........ this looks to be family on 1901c
1901 RG13; Piece: 5266; Folio: 28; Page: 6
William Williams 58 occ. Farmer, Anne 46
Annie Jones Owen dau 22, https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VV-FQQ
Maggie dau 20(her surname dittoed as Owen),
WILLIE WILLIAMS son 14,
Evan Jones serv. 21
All dittoed as born Aberdaron except Evan born Rhiw
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Hi Ladyhawk, no I hadn't so thanks :)
Found a few William Williams, farmer, Aberdaron but not with wife Ann, so tried looking for the same house/farm name from 1891 but couldn't find that either :-[
Looks like the older children are from a first marriage as they are Owens in 1891 and Owen in 1901.
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Hi Ladyhawk, no I hadn't so thanks :)
Found a few William Williams, farmer, Aberdaron but not with wife Ann, so tried looking for the same house/farm name from 1891 but couldn't find that either :-[
Looks like the older children are from a first marriage as they are Owens in 1891 and Owen in 1901.
Sorry didn't notice the other surname OWEN in 1891 was concentrating on William son of William Williams ::)
it look as as if Arthur might have middle name JONES
birth entry 1879 Pwllheli Arthur Jones OWEN
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2XNQ-QNB
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Here's Ann Owen on 1881 census with her children Ann 3, Arthur J 1 & Margrate 0
Head of household her father Arthur JONES
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQWH-4NF
There’s 1885 marriage Pwllheli
Annie Owen name on same page William Williams
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC2L-C33
ADDED
North Wales BMD gives two surnames for Annie Jones/Owen indicating previous marriage
1885 Aberdaron, St Hywyn
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That's fantastic, thanks Ladyhawk, just don't know how to confirm (or otherwise) that it's 'our' William.
I was initially thinking of Pwllheli as the town and hoping there'd be a good match to take forward, but as the registration area is rather large and given the number of WW births there could be more than 1 with father William a farmer. If we could find the family in 1911 with son William that should count him out as he was in Pontypridd by then.
And I'm concerned as to why he declined to name his father on his 2nd marriage :-\
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Thanks for your help :) - you've had more success finding the family than me!
Deirdre
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If you check the latest census it looks as if this William's family can be crossed off your list as your William Williams is in Glamorgan and William & Ann's son surname transcribed as Owen is with them :(
ADDED
thought you hadn't seen it so was just editing and adding it here :)
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Sorry just edited my post 21 so it made sense running through :-[
Back to the drawing board then, but at least that's one to discount if I ask the GRO for a WW birth in Pwllheli in 1885-1887 with father WW a farmer.
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Have a check on here for the birth entry not sure what areas are covered though - perhaps you can match them with the entries on FreeBMD
http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/index.php
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For 1885/6/7 it produces 342 WW births for the whole area, but there's no Pwllheli area to choose (it's not listed in the coverage either).
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Coming back to this topic following the 1939 register when William gives his DOB as 1 April 1889 - but typically there is no WW birth in Pwllheli in June quarter 1889.
Going on the principle that people knew their birthday if not necessarily the year, and based on his age at 2 marriages and the 1911 which makes his DOB more like 1885 or 1886 I've been looking on FreeBMD for earlier June quarter WW births - there are a few (1 in '85, 2 in '86, none in '87, 3 in '88 and none again in '89).
I was going to email the Gwynedd registration office to see if they would look at the 6 births from 1885 to 1888 (looking for a WW birth on 1 April, father William, farmer) but it doesn't list an email address on FreeBMD. Instead it directs you to NorthWalesBMD. But then Pwllheli doesn't seem to be covered at all - though I don't know the area - so am I missing something? Does it just mean that no Pwllheli records are yet on NorthWalesBMD?
My husband and I have ancestors from many areas of Wales but no others we know of in north west Wales so it would be great if we could discover his birth.
Any suggestions most welcome.
Deirdre
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Hi Deirdre
Sorry I have not got the answer for you but have you searched Yffor.com ? Keith Parry has transcribed most of the parish records for Pwllheli (Denio) and surrounding parishes. It also includes some of the non-conformist records as well.
Glyn
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Thanks Glyn, will definitely look at that site asap :)
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Hi
Have considered a number of William Williams', but ruled them out.
Then came across a possibility, born 1888:
Anne Williams, Brynygorlan, Llangybi, marries Griffith Griffith, 1888.
1891 family living in Abererch - also with them Charles Williams (blind), Anne's brother.
1901 family living in Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan.
1st Quarter 1885, Anne's brother, William Charles Williams, marries Dorothy (Dora) Hughes, born Llannor.
21/05/1888 William, son of Wm C Wms and Dora born (baptised 27/09/1888 ,Pencaenewydd).
1901 William, age 12 (born Llannor), with parents and 3 other children, at Bryngorlan, Llangybi.
1911 Can't find this William, but is alive, as, according to 1911 Census, WCW and Dora have had 4 children, all still alive.
1911 Anne/Griffith Griffiths and family back in Abererch.
It's possible that Wm, son of Wm C Wms/Dora, joined his aunt down South married and stayed there. Llannor is just outside Pwllheli.
Emyr
Info from, YFfor, Ancestry and Free BMD.
.
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Thanks very much for all your efforts on this Emyr; that looks a great possibility which I'll follow up (though not born on 1 April as I thought, following his entry on the 1939 register).
I had started looking through Yffor but not got very far.
Deirdre
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Hi
Forgot to say, William C Williams, the father, was a farmer.
Been in contact with Gwynedd Council re. Registrars - will send PM later.
Emyr
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Hi Emyr, many thanks.
I did browse the council website last night and found an address for the archives. emailed them for info.
Deirdre
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Hi
Archives nothing to do with Registration of Births. Archives have the Parish records and they would have to search thro all the Registers for the area, something you can do yourself on http://www.yffor.com/index.html
Forgot to ask, have you an indication of the date of birth from his death records ?
Emyr
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Hi Emyr, no sorry, not found his death yet. Will need to go to the Glamorgan archives to look through the electoral rolls. Big help to know where he was in 1939.
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Hi
Archives nothing to do with Registration of Births. Archives have the Parish records and they would have to search thro all the Registers for the area.....
Thanks Emyr, that was a bit silly of me ;D
I started on the Gwynedd county council website, looking for the registrars dept, followed several links mentioning family history and birth certs etc and found an email address. Have sent them another message apologising!
Deirdre
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Hi Emyr, been looking at your family tonight, hoping something might link (siblings names etc) to what little I know about William.
Not spotted anything yet. William answered 'both' to the language question in 1911 whereas his father said 'Welsh' - though I guess in son William's case that may have been affected by his move to the South Wales valleys. His siblings had very English names Catherine, Charles and Dorothy, yet his daughter was Ceinwen. From the 1939 register I believe there are other children but not known yet. Need to prioritise a trip to the Glam archives I think.
In all other aspects, this family looks really good, esp with his aunt and family moving to Ystradyfodwg for a while.
Many thanks for your help with this.
Deirdre
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Hi
Those names look promising:
William Williams I refer to has a father called William Charles Williams (sometimes recorded as William C Williams or just William Williams), a grandfather called Charles and a mother called Dorothy (Dora).
I've sent e-mail to Registrars ; still awaiting reply. It's not a query specifically re William Williams. When I get a reply I'll send you a PM.
Emyr