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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: Deirdre784 on Thursday 09 July 15 22:55 BST (UK)
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I've struggled to get back any further on John since starting my family history just over 3 years ago, but I may have made a breakthrough today ;D.
On his marriage certificate in 1852, John Owen, a 25 year old labourer, was resident at Abernant, Llanrythan and his father was given as James, a shoemaker. I'd hoped that this info would help me find them in 1851 and then 1841, but nothing.
Later censuses suggest that John was born between 1827 and 1829 in Haverfordwest, so tonight I've been looking for possible baptisms. And I found one at Prendergast on 9 July 1826 for John Owens, son of James, a shoemaker, and Anne, of Prendergast village, and matching baptism details for Joseph in 1827 and William on 31 May 1829. Sadly there is a burial for a James Owens of Prendergast village, aged 41, on 26 June 1829, less than a month after William's baptism, and a burial of Ann Owens, aged 42, on 23 Feb 1832, both of Prendergast village.
This looks good and explains why I can't find John with James in 1841, or James, a shoemaker in 1841 or 1851.
I've entered the info into my tree as possible for now, but can anyone see anything wrong with this scenario? Any suggestions as to what would have happened to the 3 young children - all under 5 - following the deaths of both parents? I'm off to look for anything more on John's brothers now....
Thanks for reading.
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Apologies, I'd forgotten that I'd posted about John before....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=647656.msg4943634#msg4943634
though this new post is about a different set of baptisms.
Looks like Orielbenfro may have found the marriage though.... James Owens married Anne Jenkins at Prendergast 04 Jan 1825 :). Thanks Owen, RIP.
Edited to add: Rees Owens, witness at the marriage, possible brother to James, died aged 35 in Dec 1831. And on his marriage to Mary Husband, Rees was a shoemaker.
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Hi
Possible marriages for James and Ann
James Owens 4.1.1825 Prendergast to Ann Jenkins
James Owens to 22.5.1825 to Ann William Haverfordwest.
Baptism for James 8.12.1788 Pendergast on FindMyPast but I don't have a sub.
1841 census Pendergast
Ann Owens 35 y
William Owens 12y
Could this be James's sister who's taken the youngest in?
John is a lodger at Neath 1851 but can't see him on 1841.
James St
Sarah Williams widow 75 baker Neath
James Jones 6 grandson Neath
John Owen 24 railway lab Haverfordwest
John Munny 24 same Carmarthanshire Laurne
William Hopkins 16 blacksmith Glamorgan Llang?
Ciderdrinker
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Hi Ciderdrinker,
The Prendergast family looks great :) thanks. I found quite a few interesting BMBs on FindMyPast last night and today, inc the baptism of James on 9 Dec 1788, son of Joseph & Elizabeth Owens.
Joseph & Elizabeth had a number of children from 1781 to 1795 (John, John, William, Joseph, Rees, Rees and Martha, all of Prendergast village).
Joseph lived to the grand old age of 93, Elizabeth to 76, both buried in Prendergast (of the village).
I haven't yet found a marriage for Joseph & Elizabeth, nor a baptism for Joseph :(
Not found an Ann yet either, though she could be married to one of Joseph's brothers. so the 1841 for William looks good, thanks.
The 1851 for John in Neath is interesting too, I'll look into that.
Thanks again,
Deirdre
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Hello Deirdre
Are these your Joseph & Elizabeth ?
Banns Sept 1780
Married 19 Oct 1780 At Prendergast Church
Joseph Owens & Elizabeth Prothero
Kind regards
omega :)
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Hi Omega, that looks promising :) Where did you find that? It didn't come up on FindMyPast.....
Many thanks,
Deirdre
Edited to add: It's on the Pembs banns on FindMyPast but not the marriages :-[
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Hello Deirdre
Found it on FindMyPast ,on origanal PR
omega
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Thanks Omega, it's not coming up on my search on the marriages but it is on the banns - with confirmation of the marriage - which is great :)
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Hi, just come across this mention of Owens of Prendergast, and I think there may be a connection. I have a miniature of Joseph Owen (born 1787 in Prendergast), who was uncle of my 3xgreatgrandfather Joseph (born Bristol 1806), whose father John was (I believe) also born in Prendergast in about 1786. The two Josephs were both shoemakers, and it looks like Joseph and John were both sons of Joseph and Elizabeth. Can you kindly supply me with dates of their baptism?
Charles
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Hi Charles, and welcome to RootsChat. Will look up the dates and get back to you later.
Deirdre
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Hi again Charles,
At Prendergast, on 17 Jun 1787, Joseph, son of Joseph and Elizabeth Owens, who was privately baptised on 30 April last, was brought to church.
Deirdre
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Also at Prendergast, children of Joseph and Elizabeth...
John, baptised 7 July 1781, buried 28 Jan 1782
John, baptised 24 Nov 1782
William, baptised privately on 28 Nov 1784, publicly on 12 June 1785
James, baptised 9 Dec 1788 (likely to be my 3 great grandfather)
Martha, no baptism found, buried on 16 Mar 1792
Rees, no baptism found, buried on 4 April 1792
Rees, baptised on 7 June 1793, at 3 months
Martha, baptised on 31 May 1795, at 3 months
Burial on 13 Feb 1824 of Elizabeth Owens, aged 76, of Prendergast village, aged 76 and Joseph on 15 Oct 1838 aged 93, of Prendergast village. Can't confirm that this is the same Joseph and Elizabeth as their age at death would mean they were both in their 30s when they married, though presumably just about possible as Elizabeth would have been 47 when Martha was born.
Sadly I can't prove that they are my ancestors but have them in my tree as 'possibles' ...
Re-reading your post, I have John baptised in 1782 not 1786; could this be the same person? No other info on John sorry.
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Hi Deirdre,
Thank you, Deirdre: that is really helpful! Until yesterday I was unaware there were any PRs for Prendergast, so assumed I had hit a dead end.
That will definitely be the right John: I was only guessing 1786 as his birthdate (but given that he married in 1805 I wasn't thinking straight). I suppose I was influenced by the fact that the 1841 census shows a 55-year old John Owen, sieve maker, living in Prendergast - who may have been John returning to his birthplace.
Have you found your John in the 1851 census yet? Obviously if you can it would provide his birthplace. It does seem that the shoemaking is a recurring theme running through the family [sieve maker may be a red herring!], and would appear to tie his ?father James to Prendergast and the family there.
I note what you say about Joseph and Elizabeth being relatively old at the time of their marriage, but perhaps they couldn't afford to until they were older. And although Owen(s) is not exactly an uncommon surname in Wales, I believe Prendergast was a pretty small village in those days.
best wishes
Charles
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Hi Charles, pleased that helps. Guess we could be distantly related then?
Can't find my John in Pembrokeshire in 1851 but the one Ciderdrinker found earlier in Neath looks a good bet. Born Haverfordwest.
Later censuses say he was born in Haverfordwest or the county of Pembroke (and one ditto under his daughter says born Llanhowell but i think that's a mistake). Would have been good if even one said Prendergast, though without knowing the area it does appear to be part of Haverfordwest. My John wasn't a shoemaker either so nothing ties him to the family. Nor names of his children (Jane and Elizabeth).
While i therefore can't confirm it, it all looks a good fit. John's marriage in 1852 says father was James a shoemaker (doesn't say deceased, though i know it doesn't always). Can't find a shoemaker called James in Pembs in 1841 or 1851. Not sure what else I can look for now, so it's in my tree as possible until anything else comes along (to confirm or deny).
How did you find your John in Bristol? Had he moved there? And later family in Bristol or did he stay in Prendergast after 1841?
Deirdre
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The other thing I noticed is that they all signed their names in the marriage register, though sadly my John didn't, though if his parents had both died by the time he was 6, I guess that hugely affected whatever happened to him and his 2 younger siblings afterwards.
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Deirdre,
Yes, we would be distantly related: John (b 1786) was my 4xgreatgrandfather, so if his brother James is the same relation to you then we would be fifth cousins.
My Owens moved around a great deal. My 2xggm Mary was born in Prendergast in 1838, but lived most of her life in Peterborough, where her parents lived before - and after - her birth. I managed to find her father Joseph in the 1851 census which gave his birthplace as Bristol. He married a girl from Somerset in 1805, but she appears to have died in 1809, and I don't know for certain where he and his son Joseph went after that. But whereas I can understand someone leaving a small village for a larger city like Bristol (or Peterborough) the fact that the family went back to Prendergast for 3-4 years strongly suggested to me that that is where they originated from, i.e. why else would they go back there?! And so it has proved, thanks to your filling me in. (Btw, I have just come across the baptism of a Joseph at Lambston, a mere 4.5 miles from Prendergast, on 6.2.1744/5 - but I don't have a FindMyPast sub to access the detail).
I have come across several census references to Haverfordwest, which on closer inspection turned out to be Prendergast: hardly surprising given that the former is so much bigger and more recognisable to those far away. So I would not be surprised if the same was true in your case.
What I meant about the shoemaker connection was that if John's father James was a shoemaker, then my bet would be that he had learned that trade from his family in Prendergast - as both Joseph (b 1806) and his uncle Joseph (b 1787) were shoemakers. Sometimes I just find I have to use my imagination to bridge the gap across missing documents, standing back and thinking what the balance of probability is. Moreover, his absence from Pembs - while frustrating - may not be surprising as other family members clearly moved away to seek a living. But it does make it harder to track them down!
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Great, I have found very few relatives on that side of my family. Thanks for the info and advice.
The Lambston baptism is for Joseph, son of Henry Owen and Mary his wife. No other details.
Six other children... Thomas, Martha, William, Charles, Sarah and John.
Deirdre
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Interesting. May just be coincidence, but Joseph (b 1806)'s son was Henry Joseph Owen (b 1831), which otherwise looked like a departure from the John/Joseph norm.
btw, I wasn't thinking clearly: if we share a 5x ggf (Joseph born ?1745) we would be 6th cousins.
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I think Joseph 1745 is my 4th great grandfather ... So we have a 'removed' !
Son James 1788 my 3rd, son John 1826 my 2nd, daughter Jane 1853 my great grandmother.
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OK. Generations not that far out (e.g. my 2xggm born 1838), but for the large gap between your James and John.
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If it's right, based on burial aged 41 in 1829, James was about 37 when he married.
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In case it is of interest, I ordered the death certificate of Joseph Owens of Prendergast. It confirms that he was 93 when he died, and also that he was a shoemaker, which ties him in to my later Owen ancestors.
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Hi Charles, that's great, thanks.
Would you be prepared to let me know the date and cause of death (i'll get the cert myself when i get back to that branch, currently transferring my tree to Family Historian and checking details as i go).
Thanks, Deirdre
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Of course, Deirdre: he died Oct 11 (buried 15th). Cause of death "old age"! If you give me your e-mail address I can send you a scanned copy.
By the way, just looking through the earlier messages here, I was reminded that your John - although not himself a shoe maker - was the son of James, shoe maker. So to my mind it seems logical that James would himself have come from a family of shoe makers - which would seem to support the view that James came from the family in Prendergast, wouldn't it?
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Thanks, that's great. I'll pm you now. Love the cause! I have a 'natural decay' for my John's MIL, which sounds worse, though probably (hopefully) means something similar.
Yes, I think I'm quite happy with the family, and had added them to my tree, though I'm aware that, as with all pre-census and pre-registration records, it's difficult to be 100%. I don't seem to find many wills or any other docs to confirm or otherwise, though I'm sure that's the case for many people.
Deirdre