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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Jang on Friday 10 July 15 01:14 BST (UK)
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Some years ago the parish priest sent me the following baptisms for the children of Jeffrey Keating and Johanna Kirby in Fedamore:
Jeffery on 28.08.1808
Ellen on 29.08.1810
John on 27.12.1814
Margaret on 29.01.1817
Johanna on 15. 11. 1818
When the parish records came online this week, I immediately looked up the original records. All good, except for the first one which was almost impossible to read.
I also found another child for this couple:
Jeffrey Keating bapt 23 Jan 1814.
This was a huge surprise as the Jeffrey born 1808 fitted beautifully with what I know about my gg grandfather, Jeffrey James Keating, who was 67 when he died in Feb 1876 in Albury NSW, father Jeffrey.
My first thought was that the first Jeffrey died and the second one was my gg grandfather and the dates were wrong.
Is it possible for a family to have two children baptised with the same name? My Jeffrey was known by his second name James in Australia.
Could the priest have made a mistake with the first name when transcribing the records?
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In Ireland, up until recent times, it was quite common to re-use a Christian name after the death of a young child- even more than once. Seems to be especially true it it was the name of a direct ancestor(grandfather, father, mother, etc.).
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It also depends on how old they were when baptized... you can get 3 children bapt. on same day, eldest maybe age 8.
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Thanks for your replies. I guess that means that the first Jeffrey must have died if the name was reused for another son? If so, then the younger Jeffrey probably couldn't be my ancestor as his age at death makes him too old to be born in 1814. He'd also probably be too young to graduate as an apothecary in 1832 and marry in 1833.
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My g/father was named after a child that died, no burial/death for first and no birth/bapt for 2nd....
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born in 1814. He'd also probably be too young to graduate as an apothecary in 1832... not necessarily!!
Plenty of 12 y. olds attended colleges!
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Jeffrey Keating bapt 23 Jan 1814.
This was a huge surprise as the Jeffrey born 1808 fitted beautifully...
...and like I said could have been 6 y.o. when baptized!!
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Thanks Hallmark, I didn't realise young boys could become apothecaries at 12 :-)
If there was a Jeffrey baptised in 1808, then the one baptised in 1814 wouldn't be 6 years old ... unless he was baptised twice.
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Hi There
My first question would be :
How do you know that this Fedamore couple are YOUR relations ?
Do you have paperwork from NSW to back this up ?
Tara
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Hi Tara,
I have my Jeffrey's death certificate which says he was 67 when he died in 1876, father Jeffrey and that he was born in Limerick.
There was only one Jeffrey Keating in Limerick in Griffiths Valuation - the one in Fedamore. And when the parish priest found he had a son Jeffrey bapt 1808, it all seemed to fit.
But finding the 1814 baptism has got me wondering ...
Jan
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Hi Jan
Sorry to disappoint but it's not that straighforward.
GV as a source of thinking where your family originated is your main stumbling point ~
1. YOUR Jeffrey SR quite possible died before it was taken in the late 1850's / early 1860's and so obviously wouldn't show on it.
2. GV is NOT a census, it's a list of those heads of household whom were responsible for paying rents due on land and houses ~ there are a vast array of people who don't fall into this bracket and hence don't show up on the GV.
You also need to take 'Limerick' into consideration.
Just because Jeffrey was born there, doesn't mean that it's where his parent's were from OR lived.
For example, say his father was a military man, travelling salesman, sailor etc ~ the family could have been transient and hence other baptisms could show up anywhere.
Sorry but there is more work for you to do in NSW.
To research family in Ireland you need father's name, mother's name (including maiden name), you then need an EXACT parish, not just county that they came from to see if records for that area still exist.
You need to go back to where your Jeffrey lived and died in NSW.
You need to trawl births, marriages and deaths to try and get leads.
You need to look through newspapers for obits and the like to see if a townland for him is mentioned.
You need to tray and track possible siblings for him in the area and do the same for them, try to get any leads to a townland that your family originated in.
So, a quick question ~
Was an occupation for Jeffrey SR ever mentioned ?
Jeffrey JR being an apothecary ~ did he train here or in NSW ?
Have you tried trade books in NSW to see if he's mentioned ~ again to try and get leads ?
Again Sorry, but more work to be done ;D
Tara
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Thanks, Tara, lots to follow up here. To answer your questions:
Jeffrey SR also shows up in Garrane in the Tithe Applotments.
Jeffrey JR graduated Licentiate Apothecaries Hall Dublin in 1833. He married there in 1832.
He was an apothecary/doctor first in Dublin in the 1830s then in Melbourne in 1841 and finally in Albury until 1876.
His death certificate had mother's name unknown. The informant was his wife.
There was no mention of any townland in any of the obits for him. One said "The deceased gentleman was the descendant of a very respectable family in Ireland, one of whom wrote the history of his native country, which is still very popular amongst Irishmen". I was told that he was descended from the brother of Geoffrey Keating who wrote the History of Ireland.
None of his siblings came to Australia.
Jan
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Defo a few leads there.
I shall a poke about.
Tara
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Hi There
I have found a very interesting article re a Geoffrey Keating of Grange, Limerick and he died in 1870.
Grange is VERY close to Fedamore !
Tara
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Tara, I just remembered that the person who told me about my Jeffrey being descended from Geoffrey Keating's brother also said my Jeffrey was part of the Tipperary sept.
Before you mentioned it, I hadn't thought of his parents not being born in Limerick - perhaps they were in Tipperary?
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Tara, I think that Geoffrey Keating you found was the one in Griffiths.
I have this reference from LDS:
Name: Geoffery Keating
Registration district: Croom
Record type: DEATHS
Registration date - quarter and year: 4 June 1870
Estimated birth year: 1774
Age: 96
Mother surnames:
Occupation: Farmer
Marital Status: Widowed
Film number: 101585
Volume: 10
Page: 168
Digital GS number: 4200217
Image number: 00128
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958
also his wife Johanna:
Name: Johanna Keating
Registration district: Croom
Record type: DEATHS
Registration date - quarter and year: 1868
Estimated birth year: 1784
Age: 84
Mother surnames:
Film number: 101584
Volume: 5
Page: 164
Digital GS number: 4200216
Image number: 00120
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958
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The Geoffrey 'History of Ireland' chap was born in Tipperary BUT long before you family came to being so it's hard to tell for now.
Tara
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This will show you how close Grange and Fedamore are !
https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/Grange,+Limerick/Fedamore,+Co.+Limerick/@52.5688892,-8.6173632,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x485b50cbac2b4a0b:0x484d86d3bd012a9f!2m2!1d-8.5467538!2d52.5412595!1m5!1m1!1s0x485b5061f596af6d:0xa00c7a997320180!2m2!1d-8.6016982!2d52.5454414
Tara
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They Grange Geoffrey certainly appears to be the Fedamore Geoffrey !
Tara
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Apparently Grange was the name for Knocknagranshy, the townland where the Keatings were in Griffiths.
Could you give me the reference for the article you found?
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Here it is ;D
It's sad really as Geoffrey's children were fighting for 15 years over his will.
Tara
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Wow, that's really interesting. I know somebody in the US who will be very happy to have Edmund confirmed as the brother of Geoffrey.
Interesting that it's Ellen who's the defendant. I wonder where the rest of the siblings were/
Is it possible to get a copy of the will? Wouldn't it be great if it mentioned his son Jeffrey in Australia!!
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It's not on the calendar of wills which you can search here !
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/search/cwa/index.jsp
He died in 1870 and the will was still being fought when this article was being written in 1885.
It may never have been resolved.
I know of people who fought over wills for so long that there was nothing left.
I think the article says that in 1885 she was the only one left ~ I might not have read that right though !
Tara
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A family still with the Christian name in the area in 1901 !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Garrane/Knocknagranshy/1489186/
Tara
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http://www.limerickdioceseheritage.org/Fedamore/gyFedamore.htm
Tara
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Wills http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fnf/
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There are a few Petty Session records for Edmond Keating of Grange Hill on find my past
Tara
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Thanks for the refs. I think Edmond must have won - the Keatings in the 1901 and 1911 censuses are his descendants. Edmond's son was James - could that be a clue to Edmond's (and Jeffrey's) father's name, ie James?
Yes, it looks like Ellen was the only one left. Interesting she seems to be unmarried.
Would Jeffrey's or Joanna's death certificates give me any info about his children?
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No,
Irish death certs of the time are very basic.
Just name, age at death, cause of death, place of death * whom registered the death, nothing else !
Tara
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An 1884 record.
I'm not sure but I think it's Wm (as in William) Jeoffrey Keating of Grange Hill.
Tara
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I suppose none of this answers your original question.
I would make a suggestion similar to Hallmark's original one.
I have seen people get 'rechristened'.
Most cases are for change of religion but there are others.
It may have been that in 1814 Jeffrey needed a baptismal cert to start school and an original couldn't be found, so it was 'redone' or maybe just 're written up'.
HA after all this, the more I think of it, I'm sure it's something simple like that.
It would be great to get something else concrete to link YOUR Jeffrey for sure to Fedamore :)
Tara
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Keating-Irish-Clan-Homepage/332498516766156
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Jeoffrey Keating in 1864.
Tara
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OOPPSS
Attachment.
Tara
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Is this your ancestor ?
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/f0fcf70046826
Tara
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Jeoffrey in 1858 !
Tara
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Not sure idf this relates to yours...
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=2709
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Were you aware that Jeffrey James Keating was still in Dublin in 1838 ?
Tara
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. . . here is the attachment . . .
Tara
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OOOPPS AGAIN !
Tara
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http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/8690990090911
Tara
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From 1831 !
Tara
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http://sources.nli.ie/Record/MS_UR_093813 ?
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Wow, thanks, Tara, you're finding some great info. Love the old court records :-)
My Jeffrey married Sarah Duffy at St Mary PRO Cathedral in Dublin on 16 July 1832.
Yes, Jeffrey was an apothecary in Dublin from 1833. He was not very good with money - declared insolvent again in 1840 when he sailed to Australia as ship's surgeon on the Argyle, leaving his wife and children behind. The later joined him in 1847.
The Keating estate in Tipperary is probably related in some way. I finally located the correspondence I had with John Keating who wrote a history of the Keatings. He said:
"Jeffrey James belonged to the Tipperary sept of the family, and probably came from the Parish of Tubrid, where they were setttled for centuries in and around Ballylooby where the great Fr. Geofrey was also born. Moreover, some credence may attach to this suggestion as Geoffrey/Jeffrey is a very common baptismal name for this sept which is seldom encountered elsewhere in the Keating counties of Wexford, Cork, Limerick and Kerry. The Tipperary sept continually repeated the name in just about every generation, mainly in memory of the fact that this Line nearly died out until Walter de Keating became the progenitor of the largest Keating Line in Tipperary by his marriage to the heiress Luvia Jeffrey of Limerick and produced Matthew (1318-1399) and Patrick born in 1322. It was Patrick who became the founder of the Keating families of Skeinton and Tubrid and was the ancestor of Geoffrey de Keating (beheaded for treason in 1477) and Fr. Geofrey Keating. It is also worthwhile recalling that this family always maintained close connections with Limerick and their children were often born in that county. I have detailed the origins of this Line in "Ever Most Faithful" (The Early Keatings) which is schduled for publication in December."
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http://sources.nli.ie/Record/MS_UR_041744
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Glad You Like ;D
I shall keep an eye out and if I spot anything else I shall post !
Best Of Luck
Tara
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http://sources.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=%22%20Keatinge%2C%20family%20of%22&type=Subject
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http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000280537
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Must have been a terrifying time back then. I read somewhere that people were often seriously assaulted too.
I did wonder if he'd been rechristened. The original 1808 baptism is so difficult to read. It's interesting that the parish priest didn't include the 1814 record in the list he sent me.
The other thing that's always made me wonder if I had the right Jeffrey are the names of his children born in Dublin: Francisca 1833, Mary Agnes 1835, Terence 1838, Thomas ca 1839 and one other male I haven't found. Not a Jeffrey or Johanna to be seen, which I would have expected.
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http://sources.nli.ie/Record/MS_UR_041745
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http://sources.nli.ie/Record/MS_UR_041744
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http://sources.nli.ie/Record/MS_UR_041744
Defence of the true history of Ireland by Jeffery Keatinge.
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Plenty of Pedigree stuff in what I posted!!
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So much info I didn't know existed :-) Thanks for all your help, Tara. I never would have found it myself.
Just re-reading the will article - what I wouldn't give to see that will!
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Thanks too, Hallmark.
I wonder, did priests not keep records of burials?
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did priests not keep records of burials? Most didn't
_______________________________
Draft pedigrees and miscellaneous information on the families Keating and Keatinge, c.1280 -- 1943.
Format: Manuscript
Subjects:
Keating, family of
Location
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Genealogical Office: Ms.809, p.7
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Thanks, that's a pity :-(
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Not too bad as you hae all the Pedigrees etc at NLI and they aren't expensive and a wonderful addition to one's tree.
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Not too bad as you have all the Pedigrees etc at NLI
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Can I access these pedigrees from Australia?
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you can email jharte2'at'nli.ie for prices http://www.nli.ie/en/rights-reproductions.aspx
or email addresses on http://www.nli.ie/en/reprographic-services.aspx
they are very reasonable and can e emailed which is cheaper and quicker.
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Thanks :-)
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Apologies if this is a repost, but are you aware that there was a Jeffrey Keating of Croom, Limerick, who registered as an apothecary in Dublin in November 1825? (I think as an apprentice apothecary to be exact, but you can look at the document yourself in more detail)
This comes from the "Returns Relating to Apothecaries licensed in Dublin", from Parliamentary Papers:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=vbtDAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA70&dq=%22jeffery+keating%22+croom+limerick&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAGoVChMIq_C1lZ6yxwIVdEfbCh0taAZ7#v=onepage&q=%22jeffery%20keating%22%20croom%20limerick&f=false
Although the areas mentioned previously in this thread (Fedamore and Grange) aren't quite in Croom, their local post-town would certainly have been Croom.
Regarding dates, from what I'd know people could begin an apprenticeship by the age of 12 or 14. So I don't think it would be absolutely beyond the realms of possibility that someone born in January 1811 could begin an apprenticeship by November 1825. (Not to say the 1811 birth is definitely the same man either)
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Wow, Brian, what a great find! Thanks so much for the reference - I think you've just proved my Jeffrey Keating was the one in Fedamore.
I know he graduated from the Apothecaries Hall Dublin in 1833 and I found out that apprentices were required to serve a 7 year apprenticeship, so that fits with the date of 1825 when he started.
At the time he would have been 17 years old (born 1808). The other baptism entry I found for a Jeffrey Keating was for 1814, so this one would have been aged 11, perhaps a bit young to start an apprenticeship, though not necessarily.
But what's really important is the that the JK who started his apprenticeship in 1825 and graduated in 1833 was from Croom, so now I have a definite place for him.
Thanks so much - you've made my day :-)
Jan
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Great, glad it was of help! Was doing a different bit of research when I came across the list of apothecaries and remembered a fellow rootschatter had posted something about the subject so went back to find your post. Best of luck with the rest of your research!
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And you with yours!
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Hi,
New to Roots chat so apologies in advance.....
tracking Jeffrey James Keating, and this info seems to be referencing the gentleman I am interested in.
My line comes from Lucinda Keating daughter of Jeffrey and Margaret Nelson whom was born in county Donegal.
I working my way through the posts & links. Very appreciative, lots of wonderful info.
Thanks
Cheers
Felicity
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Hi Felicity,
Great to make contact with another descendant! My line comes through Lucy's sister, Sarah Ann Isabella Keating, who married Agostino Vosti, a distant cousin of Antonio's. If you post twice more here on Rootschat, I can send you a personal message with my email address. I have photos of Lucy and Antonio and their children.
Which one are you descended from?
Jan
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Hi Jan,
Apparently I didn't reply to this!
Hoping this can still find you.
Cheers
Filiedh
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Hi again, I have some photos from the apothecary registers for Jeffrey Keating. Happy to post if people are interested
Cheers
Filiedh