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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: suek2075 on Saturday 11 July 15 17:21 BST (UK)
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Please can anyone help me track down my great grandmother's birth?
She was Martha Jane Davies, birth unknown. She married William Goatman Hall on 1 March 1901 in Pembrey, Carmarthenshire, aged 24. Her marriage certificate shows her father to be Thomas Llewellyn Davies/Davis (deceased), painter. After 1904 we know her history.
She died in Llanelli on 2 December 1914.
This is all we know for sure about her, and includes a 2 year discrepancy in her age, which could conceivably be anytime 1877-1880.
I have tracked down a Thomas Llewellyn Davies, born in Swansea 1853 who at 17 (1871 census) is a painter. His father and brother are also painters so I'm assuming this was his trade as opposed to someone 'jobbing'.
In 1871 Thomas LLewellyn lived in Calvert Street, Swansea, with his father Thomas, mother Jane, and siblings Jane, George and Louisa. After that he disappears - it's possible that he died (there are a number of Thomas Davies deaths between 1871 and 1881 in Swansea). If he is the right person he married Martha Jane's mother sometime between 1871 and 1881 and Martha Jane was born.
This has been bugging the family for years now, and at least two other families who are distantly related and have an interest in her.
So far the main possibility is a Martha Jane Davies born 21 Oct 1878 in Swansea workhouse -
father Thomas Davies, collier
mother Sarah Davies formerly Llewellyn.
A Martha Jane Davies was found in Robeston Wathen, Pembroke in 1881 at the age of 1 living with her grandparents. Although this possibly is her, the father's occupation is collier rather than painter. I know Thomas Llewellyn Davies could have become a collier after 1871, but it's all rather an assumption. And we still don't know what happened to her parents.
In 1891 Martha is 12 and living with grandparents again, but this time different people.
After years of research we still haven't really pinned down who Martha Jane was and for me there are just too many ifs and buts in what we have. I'm hoping that some of the super sleuths on RC can help find something a bit more definitive for me.
I hope I've given enough information and not made it too muddled. Thanks in advance to anyone who is willing to try and help out.
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Hi 1901/11 where does Martha Jane give as her birthplace and year of birth?
Keyboard86
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Good thinking batman :) Swansea. I've also just noticed that her age in 1911 is 30. But she died 3 years later aged 36. Time can go very slowly in deepest Llanelli!
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Just checked her ages again - ignoring earlier census entries which are often wide of the mark anyway
1904 - age is 24 so year of birth would be 1880. 1911 age is 30, so again 1880. So 1880 is probably more correct than 1777/78.
Possible that the age on her death certificate was given by her husband - he obviously thought she was older than she was! She was a few years older than him.
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Hi again, a possible to check out 1881/91 is the Martha Jane Davies aged 2 and 12 b Swansea shown as Grandchild on both with a Thomas & Martha John in Narberth, Pembrokeshire?
RG11/5406/31/6 RG12/4525/26/8
Keyboard86
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I've been checking the Martha Jane in Robeston Wathen, Pembs. Problem is there doesn't seem to be a likely daughter to the John family who married a Mr. Davies.
1861 there's a daughter Eleanor who's just 4 days old. RG9/4150 folio 34 pg 3
1871 Eleanor is 9, there's Martha 7 and Elizabeth 5. RG10/5509 folio 33 pg 5
Martha John married Robert Tracy 16 May 1885 in the parish church in Robeston Wathen. In the same church Eleanor John (as Ellen) married David Jones 24 Aug 1895. One of the witnesses was Martha J Davies. The signature is similar to, but not exactly the same as that of the Martha Jane Davies who married in 1904.
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Hi Osprey and keyboard86 - thanks both for your interest.
The Martha Jane Davies in Pembroke is the one thought to be our Martha (as mentioned in my post above) - BUT based on the fact that we couldn't find another one! Doesn't seem the best reason to add her to our tree.
Since my last post, and kb86 reminding me of the 1911 census, I've been away and rechecked birth certificates and found one for a Martha Jane born in Swansea in 1880 (which matches with the 1911 census and her marriage certificate for her birth year). I've sent away for it. The best scenario is that this one shows a father who is Thomas Llewellyn Davies, painter, and a name for her mother.
The 'Johns' mentioned in Pembroke are connected to a Llewellyn family - a son married Martha Llewellyn. I am hoping that Thomas Llewellyn Davies will have a connection to the Llewellyn family in Pembroke, and thus to the John family that Martha is living with. If all that makes sense!
I might also get a lead on what happened to her parents once I know her mother's name.
Worst scenario is the certificate has a different father's name and I'm back to square one ::)
So fingers crossed.
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Martha, the grandmother of Martha Jane Davies, married Thomas John as Martha Llewellyn, the witnesses were Thomas Llewellyn & William Llewellyn.
So this is the family in 1851
Robeston Village HO107/2475 folio 582 pg 20
Isaac Llewellyn head mar 49 mason
Sarah wife b. Amroth
William son 20 mason
Martha dau 25 servant
Sarah dau 8
Anne Hughes mother widow 87 pauper (servant) b. Amroth
Sarah Llewellyn grand dau 3 months
all born Robeston except where noted
Sarah Llewellyn was baptised 6 Jan 1851 in Robeston Wathen as Sarah Williams natural daughter of Martha Llewellyn.
This Sarah is a candidate for the mother of Martha Jane. In 1861 she was living with Isaac, now a widower, and enumerated in the same building, but a different household, as mother Martha, now married to Thomas John.
Haven't found her in 1871 or later as yet.
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Osprey - thank you so much for your interest and your efforts :)
You have come up with the same families that other researchers have found, although I will have to go away and pick at it and compare it to what we have to see if you have identified anything new. I'm very happy to see the same results, just need to find that elusive tie-in between the families to confirm we have all the right people and I'm hoping a fresh pair of eyes will spot that.
My problem has always been that the main players seem to disappear from sight just when I need to confirm where they were at a particular time! Not only that, so far I can't find death/birth certificates I need.
I'm hoping that the birth certificate I have sent for (should be here at the end of the week) will have parents David Llewellyn Thomas and Sarah Llewellyn, and the appropriate dates and occupations. We already have one with a David Thomas (father) and Sarah Davies formerly Llewellyn (mother) but the dates and occupations suggest that it's incorrect. But the birth date on the one I've ordered seems more appropriate than the previous one (thanks to keyboard for pointing out that I'd completely ignored the 1911 census!).
Will add more once I've been through everything or have something new to add.
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The birth certificate I ordered has arrived and is the wrong one (again!) :'( This Marta Jane has a father called John Davies.
This is the second one I've tried for a Martha Jane born in Swansea.
I'm wondering now if even though she was born in Swansea she was one of the Martha Jane Davies' registered in Haverfordwest around 1880, as she was living with her grandparents in 1881 and no sign of her parents. It's possible I suppose that her parents died around the time she was born and she was taken to Robeston Wathan. Possibly even by one of her parents. If I could find the death certificates for them it might pin them down a bit.
Osprey - thanks again, I've checked your comments and so far you've found the same that I have.
I suppose I'll just have to bite the bullet and order some more of these birth certs - only five more to go! Unless anyone can come up with an alternative I haven't thought of.
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have you tried ordering from the registrars in Swansea? That way you can specify name for father & they will only issue if it meets your info.
http://www.swansea.gov.uk/article/2502/Copy-certificates
You can do the same with the GRO site if you do not put the reference. But if it's one of the registrations that didn't make it to the GRO, that won't help.
I wouldn't have thought the Haverfordwest regs were likely as her place of birth is given as Swansea. If she was born in the Robeston Wathen area, the registration would show up as Narberth. There are these
Martha Jane Davies june qtr 1877 Narberth vol 11a pg 886
Martha Jane Davies march qtr 1878 Narberth vol 11 pg 848
Both of these can be accounted for on the census, one with father George, the other father Stephen.
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Hi Osprey and thanks for the reply - so sorry not to get back to you sooner.
I had some new information from a family member to check out, so put off replying just in case she had answered my question, then forgot I hadn't replied. After you taking the time to help out I felt really bad when I realised, so many apologies. And her information didn't help at all, unfortunately, although it was nice of her to try.
I'm going to do as you suggest - I didn't realise that if I left the references off they would check the name of the father for me, so I would only end up paying for the correct certificate. The thought of paying £60-70 for a lot of paper that wouldn't help me was putting me off! So I'll do that now and come back to this when I (hopefully) have a bit more of a clue.