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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Marmalady on Wednesday 15 July 15 21:51 BST (UK)

Title: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: Marmalady on Wednesday 15 July 15 21:51 BST (UK)
Dorothy Boasman married Edward Graham Northing in 1936, Patrington Yorkshire

Edward Graham was killed in the war

Dorothy Northing married Alfred Eccleshall Jun qtr 1946 Hull

Child born 1948, mothers maiden name given as Boasman

Dorothy dies 2002 -- but her death seems to be indexed under both Northing and Eccleshall
Dec qtr 2002 East Yorks Vol 5411M page ER1M
birth date 20 Aug 1916

Anyone know why it is indexed under two names?
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: groom on Wednesday 15 July 15 21:57 BST (UK)
Did she stay with Alfred Eccleshall until her or his death, could she have left him and reverted back to  calling herself Northing. If so perhaps that would explain the two entries, as she would have been recorded by her legal name and the one she was known as.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: Marmalady on Wednesday 15 July 15 22:04 BST (UK)
Alfred probably died Jun qtr 1988

I don't know if they stayed together untill Alfred's death - in fact i know very little about her at all
My connection is through the Northing side
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: stanmapstone on Wednesday 15 July 15 22:23 BST (UK)
When you register a death Information required by the Registrar is the Full Name of the Deceased, including Aliases and Maiden Name( if applicable). So it appears that both Northing and Eccleshall were entered on the certificate, and accounts for the death being indexed under both names.


Stan
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: nanny jan on Wednesday 15 July 15 22:25 BST (UK)

There is a probate entry for a Dorothy Eccleshall who died 14th December 2002.


Nanny Jan
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: Marmalady on Wednesday 15 July 15 22:31 BST (UK)
yes, have just found that, thanks
And it is only indexed under Eccleshall, not Northing

Not sure i want to spend the £10 to satisfy my curiosity just at the moment
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: dawnsh on Wednesday 15 July 15 23:34 BST (UK)
Neither document may explain........

Information on death certs is informant-driven.

The death cert may not say that she was the "widow of"

If she died in a nursing home, they may have had both surnames recorded and if the home manager was the informant, both names may have been given (as Stan mentions)

so you could lose £10 on the will and/or £9.25 for the death cert
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 16 July 15 13:30 BST (UK)
True. Informants do mis recall maiden names, dob place of birth, and all sorts of other details.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: Marmalady on Thursday 16 July 15 13:42 BST (UK)
But deaths are not indexed under maiden names, so a mis-remembered maiden name would not matter

It just seems odd that she was a Northing for about 10 years (5 yrs of marriage plus 5 yrs of widowhood) and an Eccleshall for 56 years (42 yrs of marriage plus 14 yrs of widowhood), yet for some reason the Northing name was entered as an alternative surname on the death certificate

I have not been able to trace any children from her Northing marriage, so its not as if one of her children accidentally gave his own surname rather than his mother's when registering the death
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: stanmapstone on Thursday 16 July 15 14:05 BST (UK)
From the Government web site https://www.gov.uk/register-a-death
You’ll need to tell the registrar:
the person’s full name at the time of death
any names previously used, eg maiden name.

I wonder if whoever registered the death took this to mean any name used in the past and gave her previous married name as well as her maiden name.

Stan
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: dawnsh on Thursday 16 July 15 14:37 BST (UK)
This might only be solved by you a) getting a copy of her will to see who she left her estate to or b)getting the death cert to see who the informant was.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: groom on Thursday 16 July 15 15:13 BST (UK)
As you've found her marriage to Alfred Eccleshall, it isn't as if she'd never been married so the informant gave her legal name. I think it might just have been, as Stan said, a mistake by whoever was the informant. There are birth certificates with the wrong father given, simply because when asked, "Father's name?" the informant has given their father's name rather that that of the baby's father.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 16 July 15 15:17 BST (UK)
From the Government web site https://www.gov.uk/register-a-death
You’ll need to tell the registrar:
the person’s full name at the time of death
any names previously used, eg maiden name.

I wonder if whoever registered the death took this to mean any name used in the past and gave her previous married name as well as her maiden name.

Stan
           There could also be the case were a woman was divorced, then started to use her maiden name again.          In that case    it would be correct to give  her previous married name.

However,  an Informant could forget what the married name once was.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: ecksdochter on Thursday 16 July 15 16:35 BST (UK)
Hello,
     The Government website says, "the person's full name at the time of death.
                                                   ANY names previously used, eg maiden name."
     Surely that "ANY" will include previous marriages!
     Scottish Death Certificates may be different, but I have a relative who married 3 times. She was widowed twice, 3rd husband still alive at the time of her death. Her Death Certificate says:
           Ann D., Married to
           1. Tom B.
           2. Dick C.
           3. Harry D.
           Daughter of Joe A. & Jane E.
     I can find her Death Certificate  indexed on ScotlandsPeople not only under Ann D. her name at the time of her death but also under Ann B. (1st marriage); Ann C. (2nd marriage); or Ann A. her maiden name.
     Probably both of Dorothy's husbands are listed on her DC which is why she is indexed under both names. Viewing her Will won't give you any information relating to her DC so, if you want an answer to the mystery, go for the Death Certificate.
               Regards,     Dod.
     
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: ScouseBoy on Thursday 16 July 15 18:38 BST (UK)
From the Government web site https://www.gov.uk/register-a-death
You’ll need to tell the registrar:
the person’s full name at the time of death
any names previously used, eg maiden name.

I wonder if whoever registered the death took this to mean any name used in the past and gave her previous married name as well as her maiden name.

Stan
            That IS what it means, surely?
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: wilcoxon on Thursday 16 July 15 18:54 BST (UK)
My marriage in 1985 is indexed with different surnames.
I was divorced and refused to be known by my previous married name .
I insisted on using  my maiden name.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: groom on Thursday 16 July 15 19:12 BST (UK)
I know births can be indexed under different names - my great nephew is recorded 3 times, his mother's, his father's and both ie Smith- Brown, but he only has a certificate in the last name. I've never heard of it happening before with a death, it can't be very common otherwise the question would have been asked on here! I wonder if there is only the one death certificate though?
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: Jebber on Thursday 16 July 15 19:15 BST (UK)
I have never known dual names indexed for a death certificate unless the person was using both names.

When I registered her death in 2010,  I informed the Registrar of my mother in law's first married name as well as her maiden name, but only her maiden name is shown in the appropriate box on the death certificate.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: stanmapstone on Thursday 16 July 15 19:19 BST (UK)
The only way to know the facts is to see the death certificate, everything else is supposition. The name on the death certificate is normally the name the person was known by at the time of death, however if they were also known by another name i.e. an alias then both names might be entered,  Reply #3.   
AS for marriages, I have a marriage certificate for a divorced woman and under name and surname in column 2, it has 'Margaret Cockton formerly Stephenson (her maiden name) Spinster', and in column 4, condition, it has 'The Divorced Wife of John Cockton'. The marriage is indexed under both her maiden name and her former married name in the GRO Index.


Stan
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: Marmalady on Thursday 16 July 15 19:55 BST (UK)
Thanks everyone for your input

It does appear from the replies that although it is unusual it must be indexed like this because for some reason she was known by both names
Certainly deaths of this period are not indexed by maiden names, but i couldn't think of another twice-married woman to check if it was standard in that circumstance

At the moment I am not inclined to send for the death certificate of a distant connection --but one day i may let my curiosity take over and send for it!
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: dawnsh on Thursday 16 July 15 21:40 BST (UK)
The GRO now accepts 'alternative' first names as well.

I saw an entry for "Turbo Ted" a couple of weeks back.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: lovelockgraham on Tuesday 11 February 20 12:44 GMT (UK)
How rare is it for a man's death to be registered under two different surnames?
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: dawnsh on Tuesday 11 February 20 13:19 GMT (UK)
I would think that depends on whether he was known by 2 surnames

Lord Snowdon's death is recorded as Anthony Charles R Snowdon and Anthony Charles R Armstrong-Jones, Kensington 2017 if you want to take a peek at the GRO death index online
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: AntonyMMM on Tuesday 11 February 20 13:44 GMT (UK)
How rare is it for a man's death to be registered under two different surnames?

All deaths can be indexed under a number of names if the person was known by, or used more than one name or had changed their name.

It reflects the wording on the register entry which will be in the form of "SMITH formerly JONES" or "SMITH otherwise JONES". Each would be a separate index entry.

Previous names don't have to always be shown, and may depend on the wishes of the informant but it is important that they are if there are likely to be any assets or property held under different names as that makes the probate process more straightforward.

I recall registering one woman's death with five surnames (one current and four former married names) .... it would be indexed under each of them.

Deaths are not indexed under maiden names.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: lovelockgraham on Tuesday 11 February 20 14:16 GMT (UK)
Thanks very much for the advice. I assume that where a death is recorded against more than one surname the same volume and page reference are used in each case?
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: lovelockgraham on Tuesday 11 February 20 14:20 GMT (UK)
Ah yes - I see from the Snowdon/Armstrong-Jones entries that it is.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: AntonyMMM on Tuesday 11 February 20 14:31 GMT (UK)
Ah yes - I see from the Snowdon/Armstrong-Jones entries that it is.

Yes - because it is just one register entry being indexed multiple times, so the reference will always be the same.
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: lovelockgraham on Tuesday 11 February 20 14:34 GMT (UK)
Is the informant expected to produce proof of the different names?
Title: Re: Why would a death be indexed under two surnames?
Post by: AntonyMMM on Tuesday 11 February 20 15:30 GMT (UK)
Is the informant expected to produce proof of the different names?

No