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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Ann Robbins on Thursday 16 July 15 20:10 BST (UK)

Title: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Ann Robbins on Thursday 16 July 15 20:10 BST (UK)
Please help me find birth record for Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield (as named in marriage certificate) to Charles Beer on 25/12/1890 in Devon.  She was then aged 19-20.  Her father, William Banfield (dec'd) was at some stage a policeman.  She also appears to have been born in Chelsea according to subsequent census records where she is listed as Netta Beer. 
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: bevj on Thursday 16 July 15 22:00 BST (UK)
This is a long shot!
In 1871 there is a William Banfield b. Devon aged 64, living in Gillingham with wife Louisa aged 40 b. Devon and children including a Jannie Banfield aged 3, born Chatham.
RG10/911/56 p 22
Given the age difference between William and Louisa and the fact that there is a big gap in the ages of the children (20, 18, 14, 5, 3, Jannie being the youngest), I am wondering if Jannie is Janneta - Louisa's daughter and was born with another surname?
William is however a stone mason, not a policeman.
Bev
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 17 July 15 09:58 BST (UK)
Quote
She also appears to have been born in Chelsea according to subsequent census records where she is listed as Netta Beer. 

Birthplace for 1901 is Barnstaple Devon and Netta but 1891/1911 have Chelsea and Janetta.

Can't find any likely births with those first names in either place  :-\
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 17 July 15 10:12 BST (UK)
Quote
In 1871 there is a William Banfield b. Devon aged 64, living in Gillingham with wife Louisa aged 40 b. Devon and children including a Jannie Banfield aged 3, born Chatham.

She could be Jane Banfield born Medway Dec 1868  :-\

And there's also a Janey Banfield born Barnstaple Sep 1869 but the Netta on census seems younger than that. 

Tricky one.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Annette7 on Friday 17 July 15 11:20 BST (UK)
A Janey Banfield birth registered Sept.1869, Barnstaple.   In 1871 she's with grandmother and aunt both named Charlotte Spear and in 1881 with aunt Charlotte.   No trace of her after then so looks like she could be Janetta.

Looks like a marriage took place in Mar.qtr.1869 Barnstaple between a William Banfield and Ann Spear (she has been missing from transcribed page but looking at original her ref. is 5b 794 the same as William Banfield.   Aforementioned Charlotte senior did indeed have daughters Ann and Charlotte.

In 1871 Janey Benfield, aged 1 bc.1870, in 1881 Jane Banfield, 11 bc.1870.

Having problems finding William and Ann after marriage but an Ann Banfield bc.1831 died Sept.1881 Barnstaple.

Annette
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: lizdb on Friday 17 July 15 12:01 BST (UK)
Who are the witnesses when she marries Mr Beer?
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: groom on Friday 17 July 15 12:18 BST (UK)
I'm wondering whether she adopted these rather posh names rather than being registered or baptised with them?
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 17 July 15 13:13 BST (UK)
Good question about the witness names.

I wondered too if she made up some extra names for herself.

Might any children born clarify her surname?

When did she pass away and under what name(s)? 

Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 17 July 15 13:37 BST (UK)
Found a tree which has her parents as William b1829 and Martha b1831 and names 8 siblings for Janetta born 1870.

Closest births to Janetta are Ada 1867 and Ernest ** 1871 tho it doesn't say where.

Maybe we could find those children and see if it pans out.

** there's an Ernest Banfield birth in Kensington Sep 1870 that would fit with Chelsea.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: lizdb on Friday 17 July 15 13:48 BST (UK)
Heres that family in 1871

William 42 tailor? Or sailor? Or neither!  Bn Brighton Sussex
Martha 41 bn Brighton
William 17
Harry 16
Charles 14.   Above 3 bn Brighton
Walter 12
Horace 8
Herbert 6
Ada ?   Above 4 bn Chelsea
Ernest 8 mths bn Fulham
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: lizdb on Friday 17 July 15 13:50 BST (UK)
In 1881 William and son Ernest are lodgers in Fulham. No sign of rest of the family with them. Strange.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Friday 17 July 15 13:59 BST (UK)
William Banfield was a police constable when he and Martha had their son Walter baptised at St Luke, Chelsea on 7 Nov 1858 (baby born 13 July 1858).  Abode: 20 Park Walk. 

His occupation was shown as "Metropolitan Police" in the 1861 census: RG9/30/16/25.

There's a possible death for William in Fulham reg district in 1885.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 17 July 15 15:28 BST (UK)
Ah police constable now we're getting somewhere.

Possible marriage Worthing Mar 1852
William Banfield
Frances Bartlett
Samuel Carden
Martha Smallwood
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Friday 17 July 15 15:35 BST (UK)
What is baffling is not finding a death for Martha Banfield after the 1871 census.  William claims to be a widower in 1881.

Did she go off with another man and have Janetta under another name, perhaps? But then one would not expect Janetta to name William as her father...

 ???

Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: lizdb on Friday 17 July 15 15:41 BST (UK)
Just noticed William is a widower in 1881. And now a general labourer.

IF this isthe right family it seems Janetta was not bn till after 1871 (so younger than thought), and where is she in 1881?  We have nothing that links her to this family other than a birthplace of "Chelsea" on some censuses.

Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 17 July 15 15:46 BST (UK)
Janetta is
19 in 1891
29 in 1901
40 in 1911
 
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: lizdb on Friday 17 July 15 15:50 BST (UK)
OK, so an 1872ish birth.


And if she changed her name to incorporate Pansy and Glendora, then I guess the Janetta might not be her birth name either.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Friday 17 July 15 16:03 BST (UK)
I'm not sure this family was very diligent about birth registration.

I can see Percy b & d 1869 Kensington (baptism confirms he was theirs)

and Ernest b 1870 Kensington.


But what of Ada c1867, Herbert c1865, Horace c1863?
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 17 July 15 16:07 BST (UK)
Possibly a plain Jane and jazzed it up - a lot.  The others (if they are her siblings) have plain names.

Might help to find her death to see what name(s) she uses. 
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 17 July 15 17:20 BST (UK)
Might be this one?

Janet Beer age 80
Birth abt 1872
Death 1952
Devon Central
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Friday 17 July 15 17:42 BST (UK)
I'm behind the "jazzing up" of a plain name. I spent years looking for a Jean, with no result - then found she was a Jane who had "rearranged" the letters in her name. I also know of another who used a pet name throughout her life, and her children were all convinced that that was her actual name, even when she died!
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: keyboard86 on Friday 17 July 15 18:53 BST (UK)
Hi all, was fascinated with this thread for a couple of hours last night, if this is the correct family link to Janetta which I am still unsure of, I have found Horace, Herbert and Ernest married by 1891/1901, but 1881?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Friday 17 July 15 20:07 BST (UK)
Yes, 1881 is a mystery for all the known children except for Ernest (with his father) and Ada (in service in Fulham). Very frustrating as one would hope they might lead us to Janetta.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: rutht22000 on Friday 17 July 15 20:09 BST (UK)
1881 may well be the key....can't see a death for Martha anywhere as has been said.  The other kids turn up after 1881 so where on earth are they?!

I wonder too if we are looking at a split - William has Ernest, Martha takes the rest of the kids elsewhere?  Have tried knocking off the surnames in a search on 1881 but that has turned up nothing too...  :-\ 

Something drastic has clearly happened to William, again on the premise that we are with the right family, to go from Police Officer to Labourer in the space of a few years.  Are there any Police records online?
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Friday 17 July 15 20:27 BST (UK)
There are various Metropolitan Police records in the National Archives (series reference MEPO) including leavers' records, but not so far as I know indexed by name for dates early enough to capture William's tenure.  He seems to have left the police force between the 1861 and 1871 censuses.

Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: rutht22000 on Friday 17 July 15 20:43 BST (UK)
Do we start looking sideways to see if the kids are with grandparents?

William Banfield and Martha Smallwood married at St Mary, Broadwater, Sussex on 18 January 1852.  He was a labourer then, son of James Banfield (also Labourer) and she was the daughter of Joseph Smallwood (Carpenter).  Witnesses were Hannah and William Grevett. 

Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: groom on Friday 17 July 15 21:07 BST (UK)
It looks as if Martha was with her sister and brother in law before her marriage, unless she was just there for census night. Could be that her parents had died.

1851 HO107; Piece: 1651; Folio: 202; Page: 2  Broadwater

George Inkpen   45    Gardener
Eleanor Inkpen   38
James Inkpen   13
Ann M Inkpen   10
George Inkpen   6 Mo
Sarah Smallwood   11  step daughter
Martha Smallwood   21  sister in law  General servant
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: keyboard86 on Friday 17 July 15 21:32 BST (UK)
Hi all, the bit that keeps puzzling me IF this family is a link to Janetta is why they stick to Chelsea/Fulham,  but not Janetta from c 1872 to 1891 decides to  go to Devon, possibly a Servant? Ada married a Joseph Gosling
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: lizdb on Friday 17 July 15 21:36 BST (UK)
I think we still need as much info as pos from her marriage cert. Witnesses, addresses, occupations etc.
Something might suggest this family is a possible, or that it is unlikely.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: groom on Friday 17 July 15 21:37 BST (UK)
It does seem strange, usually the move was the other way wasn't it, in to a large town for work?  Unless she worked as a servant for a family in London, who also had a house in Devon and she went there with them.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: rutht22000 on Friday 17 July 15 21:41 BST (UK)
so we have.....

William 

b.c 1854 is he the William Joseph registered at Brighton, June Quarter 1853?

Harry

b.c 1855 - ?registered at Worthing in December Quarter 1854

Charles 

christened at St Mary, Broadwater, Sussex on 14/12/1856.  William : Labourer
also registered at Worthing in December Quarter 1856.  ? married Hannah Day 22/9/1889 at St Nicholas, Deptford.  Father William (labourer) not down as deceased.

Walter

christened at St Luke, Chelsea on 7/11/1858.  William :  Police Constable
also registered at Kensington in December Quarter 1858.  ? married Isabel Butcher (nee Williamson) on 8/4/1901 at St John, Fulham.  Father William (Police Constable) deceased.

Horace

b.c 1863  - can't locate birth registration

Herbert

b.c 1865 - can't locate birth registration but did he marry Eliza Ann Colster Piper on 25/11/1888 at St Andrew's Fulham.  Father William (labourer) deceased.

Ada

b.c 1867  - can't locate birth registration, but did she marry Joseph Gosling on 11/1/1891 at St Luke, Chelsea?  Father given as William Banfield, Labourer (deceased)

Percy

christened at St John's Fulham on 16/7/1869 - William : Labourer
also registered at Kensington March Quarter 1869; death registered September Quarter 1869

Ernest

b.c 1870 - registered at Kensington September Quarter 1870
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: groom on Friday 17 July 15 21:54 BST (UK)
I hope that the OP knows how to get back to this thread, I see she logged in earlier but hasn't commented to say if she thinks we are on the right track.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: lizdb on Friday 17 July 15 21:59 BST (UK)
Ruth2200 - that summary is really helpful.
Just to add to it, Horace marries Lucy Askew in Oct/Nov/Dec 1892, Paddington

(Hmmm, he seems to have wife called Caroline inn1891 census, but I cant see that marriage)
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: rutht22000 on Friday 17 July 15 22:04 BST (UK)
Children for Charles & Janetta:

Charles Howard Nelson born Bideford, 1892
Edgar John born Bideford, 1895
May Conway born Kingsnympton, 1901
Stanley born Kingsnympton, 1903
Ronald born Chumleigh (?), 1907
Winifred born Moreton Hampstead, 1910

+2 deceased

none of whom's names connect us back to any of that family on the face of it....
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: groom on Friday 17 July 15 22:13 BST (UK)
Looking at Ruth's summary the children don't seem that sure of William's occupation - some give him as a labourer and others as a Policeman.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: lizdb on Friday 17 July 15 22:16 BST (UK)
But he flits betweeen labourer and policeman on the christenings too.

(Actually I think there are only 2 chr to be found, and one is policeman and one is labourer)

I get the impression he was only actually in the police for a short time, but that was the "career" that stuck in the mind of some of the children.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Friday 17 July 15 22:18 BST (UK)
In 1881 William junior appears (aged 28 b Brighton) in Chelsea with "wife" Harriett b abt 1847 Clerkenwell (did they actually marry?).

In 1886 Harriet and Horace were acquitted of larceny from William.  They had been charged with stealing a rug and a gold pin from him.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: rutht22000 on Friday 17 July 15 22:24 BST (UK)
perhaps if Janetta was up for changing her name - having a father who was a Police Officer does sound better than a labourer in the respectability stakes but I think looking at it:

William was a labourer first when they were down in Sussex, possibly coming up to London to join the Met from 1858 ish (Walter's birth), through the 1861 census and something happens between then and Percy's birth in 1869 to send him back to being a Labourer as per the 1871 census.

All the weddings are post 1871 so they would know him as a labourer then perhaps? Walter being the exception!

Its such a shame that Ada, Herbert and Horace's christenings seem to be hiding as they could narrow it down even more  ;D

Ada was our best bet for a name change but she is definitely Mrs Gosling.   There isn't a girl that remotely fits otherwise....
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Friday 17 July 15 22:25 BST (UK)
Snap was just going to post that and the name underneath is Beer - Edwin Beer 44 traveller 12 calendar months in Wandsworth.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: groom on Friday 17 July 15 22:42 BST (UK)
If Martha died before 1881 and so William really was a widower, I wonder if the younger children have been fostered out and are recorded under that family's name, or are in the Workhouse?
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: keyboard86 on Friday 17 July 15 22:49 BST (UK)
Snap was just going to post that and the name underneath is Beer - Edwin Beer 44 traveller 12 calendar months in Wandsworth.

Sorry can I please know when?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Friday 17 July 15 22:53 BST (UK)
Snap was just going to post that and the name underneath is Beer - Edwin Beer 44 traveller 12 calendar months in Wandsworth.

Sorry can I please know when?
Keyboard86

This is in the calendar of prisoners, 1886.  Edwin Beer's offence (which came before Lambeth police court) was unconnected with the charges brought against the Banfield pair (Southwark police court).
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Friday 17 July 15 22:59 BST (UK)
Has anyone looked at Henry Banfield who in 1881 was 32 (so born abt 1849) born Sussex and living in Estcourt Rd, Fulham with "wife" (did they marry?) Elizabeth b abt 1843 Fulham.  NB Estcourt Rd is the same road where William & Ernest were lodging in 1881.

I can't work out whether he is Harry with his age wrong, or a separate person.

Walter's 1900 army records state NOK as brother Henry Banfield of 67 Ryleston Rd, Fulham.

I keep hoping one of them will have had Martha as a witness to a marriage!
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: keyboard86 on Friday 17 July 15 23:15 BST (UK)
Hi in 1901, take your pick RG13/61/7/5 or RG13/64/77/4?
Keyboard
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Friday 17 July 15 23:20 BST (UK)
Hi in 1901, take your pick RG13/61/7/5 or RG13/64/77/4?
Keyboard

Excellent. RG13/61/7/5 shows Harry at 67 "Rylston" Rd, Fulham, so he is Walter's named next of kin.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: rutht22000 on Saturday 18 July 15 11:29 BST (UK)
The two eldest Beer boys seems to have war records - Charles was killed in 1915 but his papers don't help.  Just call her Janetta on his effects and no more information.....
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Saturday 18 July 15 11:38 BST (UK)
I just tried a general search for Janetta Beer and it came up with death 26 Jun 1952 Bideford Devon.  Doesn't help but thought I would mention it  :D

Lists immediate Beer family and son Stanley has a few extra names - Stanley William Cook Beer - I wonder if Cook could be a clue.

It also says Stanley aka "Joe" died in Perth Australia.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Milliepede on Saturday 18 July 15 12:13 BST (UK)
L o n g shot but which would be the closest workhouse?  I have seen published lists of inmates for 1881 - we could look and see if there are any names - even first names - and ages that match. 
If the children were there in a group  :-\
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: rutht22000 on Saturday 18 July 15 12:21 BST (UK)
Just looking at looooooonnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggg shots myself  ;D

Fulham Union Workhouse would logically be one of the nearest I think

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/ (not looked at it) but I think this has a list of 1881
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 18 July 15 12:45 BST (UK)
On a different tack - this probably doesn't get us anywhere, but on Walter's 1900 attestation he said he had previously served in the Norfolk Regiment. Why Norfolk?

In 1881 we have the eldest two offspring (William and Harry/Henry) and the youngest two (Ada and Ernest) accounted for.  Of the remainder, Charles and Walter were adults and of an age to be independent of the family.  Both went on to marry at a relatively late age.  Perhaps military service accounted for the delay?

As to Horace and Herbert - who knows! 
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: rutht22000 on Saturday 18 July 15 12:59 BST (UK)
On a different tack - this probably doesn't get us anywhere, but on Walter's 1900 attestation he said he had previously served in the Norfolk Regiment. Why Norfolk?

In 1881 we have the eldest two offspring (William and Harry/Henry) and the youngest two (Ada and Ernest) accounted for.  Of the remainder, Charles and Walter were adults and of an age to be independent of the family.  Both went on to marry at a relatively late age.  Perhaps military service accounted for the delay?

As to Horace and Herbert - who knows!


Unless I'm being dense and missed it  ;D where was Ada?
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 18 July 15 13:05 BST (UK)
In 1881 Ada was in service at 31 Seagrave Rd, Fulham. Indexed on Anc as Ada Banfields, but I think it is Banfield with a flourish.

RG11/72/17/27.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: rutht22000 on Saturday 18 July 15 13:16 BST (UK)
In 1881 Ada was in service at 31 Seagrave Rd, Fulham. Indexed on Anc as Ada Banfields, but I think it is Banfield with a flourish.

RG11/72/17/27.

got her...thank you  :)
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: MaureeninNY on Saturday 18 July 15 13:27 BST (UK)
I think Walter is transcribed as BAMFIELD for his earlier service records. I looked but didn't see anything of interest. Next of kin=Father.

Perhaps someone else could check as I'm quite awful at reading those things.

Maureen
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 18 July 15 14:29 BST (UK)
A Janey Banfield birth registered Sept.1869, Barnstaple.   In 1871 she's with grandmother and aunt both named Charlotte Spear and in 1881 with aunt Charlotte.   No trace of her after then so looks like she could be Janetta.

Looks like a marriage took place in Mar.qtr.1869 Barnstaple between a William Banfield and Ann Spear (she has been missing from transcribed page but looking at original her ref. is 5b 794 the same as William Banfield.   Aforementioned Charlotte senior did indeed have daughters Ann and Charlotte.

In 1871 Janey Benfield, aged 1 bc.1870, in 1881 Jane Banfield, 11 bc.1870.

Having problems finding William and Ann after marriage but an Ann Banfield bc.1831 died Sept.1881 Barnstaple.

Annette

The Aunt Charlotte SPEAR(E) married George BUTLER in 1881 and they are buried with Ann BANFIELD.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=124824414&PIpi=122153912

It would be handy to know who the witnesses were when Janetta married.

Debra  :)

Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 18 July 15 16:42 BST (UK)
I think Walter is transcribed as BAMFIELD for his earlier service records. I looked but didn't see anything of interest. Next of kin=Father.

Perhaps someone else could check as I'm quite awful at reading those things.

Maureen

That's a good find.  Walter enlisted in London on 31.12.1878 and was stationed in the East Indies 11.12.1879 to 2.2.1885.  We can stop looking for him in the 1881 census - he was in Subathu, India on the relevant date.
Title: Re: Janetta Pansy Glendora Banfield
Post by: Ann Robbins on Sunday 19 July 15 21:05 BST (UK)
Thank you for the suggestions. The witnesses at Janetta and Charles Beer's wedding were F. Beer and J C (or H) Beer, he did have two brothers John and Frederick although I think Frederick would have only been around 15 at the time of the wedding.