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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: cazza59 on Friday 17 July 15 07:38 BST (UK)
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;D ;D ;D ;D
Somebody has actually glued this one to cardboard. ::) ::)
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Odd "shed" structure on top of the tower. :o
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There seem to be two buildings, possibly joined, and the rear has small dormer windows in its roof :-\
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The chancel and nave are parallel to one another. The tower is in mid build, stage one being completed, a temporary wooden bellcote has been installed on the tower. There is an aisle on the far side of the knave. The tower may now have 2, 3 or 4 stages. The best identifier would be the gable end windows on the nave.
Regards
Malky, and the dog's name is Rover, as he is roving the streets. ;) ;) ;)
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Isnt that the same dog that was sitting like a deformed rabbit outside the house with the ruined archway next door?
And the one next to a bush outside the house with the tower?
Have we found what links all the photos, Cazza? "Spot the dog!!!".
(I dont mean a dalmation, I mean as in " spot the ball" puzzles)
;D
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I think the sandstone is significant.
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Isnt that the same dog that was sitting like a deformed rabbit outside the house with the ruined archway next door?
And the one next to a bush outside the house with the tower?
Undoubtedly.
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Our local paper does run a weekly spot the dog competition.
Rules here: http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/competitions/spot_the_dog_rules/ (http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/competitions/spot_the_dog_rules/)
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Date about 1890
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Odd "shed" structure on top of the tower. :o
:o :o Never noticed that! You're right…bizarre!
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There seem to be two buildings, possibly joined, and the rear has small dormer windows in its roof :-\
It is odd..shame the trees are in the way.
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The chancel and nave are parallel to one another. The tower is in mid build, stage one being completed, a temporary wooden bellcote has been installed on the tower. There is an aisle on the far side of the knave. The tower may now have 2, 3 or 4 stages. The best identifier would be the gable end windows on the nave.
Regards
Malky, and the dog's name is Rover, as he is roving the streets. ;) ;) ;)
I think you are trying to baffle me with science! ;D ;D Didn't I mention the dog? He's just wandered away from the tower house... :P
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I found it
The dog that is
Oh and isn't it a Terrier?
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Isnt that the same dog that was sitting like a deformed rabbit outside the house with the ruined archway next door?
And the one next to a bush outside the house with the tower?
Have we found what links all the photos, Cazza? "Spot the dog!!!".
(I dont mean a dalmation, I mean as in " spot the ball" puzzles)
;D
;D ;D ;D Great minds (about the tower house!! ;D ;D). But yes, funny how all three have a pooch.. perhaps we should call him Spot instead of Rover! ;D ;D
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I think the sandstone is significant.
As in being able to pin down a location?
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Our local paper does run a weekly spot the dog competition.
Rules here: http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/competitions/spot_the_dog_rules/ (http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/competitions/spot_the_dog_rules/)
Have you ever found it? ;D
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I think the sandstone is significant.
As in being able to pin down a location?
No, as in without it, the roof would fall in.
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I did see a similar belfry/tower structure in Surrey , but no other churches from Surrey presented like this one
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Our local paper does run a weekly spot the dog competition.
Rules here: http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/competitions/spot_the_dog_rules/ (http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/competitions/spot_the_dog_rules/)
Have you ever found it? ;D
No but it's good fun.
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Why do dogs hang around trees?
They hear the bark, and go to investigate.
And when they find nothing, they pee in frustration ::) ::) ::) ::)
Regards
Malky
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St Peters Church, Woolton, Liverpool L25
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I'm sorry, but I can't see any similarity :-\
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St_Peter%27s_Church,_Woolton_(1).jpg
(It would be helpful if you'd give a link to places you identify :) )
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I'm sorry, but I can't see any similarity :-\
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St_Peter%27s_Church,_Woolton_(1).jpg
Nor can I.
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Neither can I. Have you got a picture to back up your theory, Scouseboy?
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The exterior wall is identical
Many pictures on YouTube and churches of Liverpool
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The exterior wall is identical
Which exterior wall?
I can't see any similarity (hope this works ) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fp2/
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The exterior wall is identical
But the tower's on the wrong corner...
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No - I can't see any similarity at all apart from them both being churches.
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The chancel and nave are parallel to one another. The tower is in mid build, stage one being completed, a temporary wooden bellcote has been installed on the tower. There is an aisle on the far side of the knave. The tower may now have 2, 3 or 4 stages. The best identifier would be the gable end windows on the nave.
Regards
Malky, and the dog's name is Rover, as he is roving the streets. ;) ;) ;)
Is the photo post WW2? So could we be looking at needing to repair tower after bomb damage?
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No. I think the photo dates back to about 1880 when the church was under construction.
Note the Gas street light as an indication of date.
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Can I ask, was it usual to leave a tower half built? The trees in the grounds are quite established, plus the wall and gate don't look new. Why not finish the church in one go?
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Maybe they ran out of money, is one possibility.
Maybe the builders went bankrupt?
Maybe the benefactor hit a period of financial difficulties?
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Can I ask, was it usual to leave a tower half built? The trees in the grounds are quite established, plus the wall and gate don't look new. Why not finish the church in one go?
I was wondering that too. That church isn't being built, for the reasons you give, but the tower may be being added or extended.
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Another possibility is that as they got to a certain height they discovered that the foundations weren't going to take the weight of any taller tower, or spire, or whatever had originally been planned.
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"The tower may now have 2, 3 or 4 stages."
The towers were usually built in stages. This one has buttresses on it. They would let the first stage lime mortar/cement harden for a few months prior to starting the second stage due to the weight factor. Note the section ring around the top of stage one.
(Diverging slightly, the Boulder dam concrete is estimated to take 100 years to fully set.)
Regards
Malky
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Back to (dis)similarities - I'm with Jen, liz, groom, Mike and arthuruk - I don't any similarities. :(
The windows at St Peter Woolton do not seem to have the pale stone border that can be seen in Cazza's photo.
And they would also seem to have removed the lovely wooden gate (seems to be a lytch gate there now), and rebuilt the roof so that the row of dormer windows is no longer there (check out GoogleEarth or similar).
Too many changes to be the same church - sorry :(
Nell
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The only similarity between St Peters Woolton and Caz's church is that they are both on a hill. ::)
(but I think the mystery church in on more of a slope than a hill.)
Regarding the tower, I'm not sure that it is incomplete. It looks to have some stones finishing the top of it, so maybe it was just a particular style? :-\ Why would someone take a photo of a church under construction and then mount it on cardboard implying it was significant in some way?
Can anyone think of a search term for this style of church? (for example we know that St Peters Woolton is 'perpendicular', but this is unusual ....) I'm wondering if it might be another Catholic one? :-\
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Just had another thought ... is it just me or does that tower look to be slightly forward of the body of the church? It is on the same alignment, but I am wondering if it is a separate building? (I'm regularly caught out with these photos and distances between objects being further away than I think). I think the tree is covering the part of the tower that might show its location so I am unsure if I am correct in what I think I am seeing)
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One or two of the ( million) churches I have looked at have been built around, or by, older churches and some have even left the tower as a separate but close building. Maybe this is similar.
I think one I found at Dereham was separated.
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"Regarding the tower, I'm not sure that it is incomplete. It looks to have some stones finishing the top of it, so maybe it was just a particular style?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Augustine%27s_Tower_Hackney
http://www.mudfordchurch.org.uk/tower.html
And remember this one?
Regards
Malky
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Regarding the tower, I'm not sure that it is incomplete. It looks to have some stones finishing the top of it, so maybe it was just a particular style? :-\ ,
Maybe a temporary finishing off, which could be incorporated into the design later? (I think this might be called a string course.)
Why would someone take a photo of a church under construction and then mount it on cardboard implying it was significant in some way?
Fundraising?
Can anyone think of a search term for this style of church? (for example we know that St Peters Woolton is 'perpendicular', but this is unusual ....) I'm wondering if it might be another Catholic one? :-\
Decorated? Geometric? Romanesque?
Just had another thought ... is it just me or does that tower look to be slightly forward of the body of the church? It is on the same alignment, but I am wondering if it is a separate building? (I'm regularly caught out with these photos and distances between objects being further away than I think). I think the tree is covering the part of the tower that might show its location so I am unsure if I am correct in what I think I am seeing)
Looking between the tree trunks, I think it probably is all joined together. I also get that impression from where we see the tower next to/joined to the gable end.
Arthur
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Always difficult to distinguish between over-zealous Victorian restoration and genuine Victorian, but I would say this is Victorian. The style is Early English or early Decorated, but the tower appears to be more in a truncated Norman style. I think it is complete and the structure on top of the tower is a bell housing.
Probably North of England (Yorkshire suggests itself to me) although I would like to see the colour of the stone! I think the tower is in line with the (south ?) aisle and the east end is to the right - a very unusual configuration with the south porch so far along the building.
Steve
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Just a question, but if the tower was finished, why has it buttresses?
If it was completed at that height, it is highly unlikely that it would require buttressing.
Regards
Malky
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I must be missing something, but I can't see any obvious buttresses. :-\
But assuming the tower is buttressed, perhaps they were decorative, or added to fit in with the buttresses on the church itself?
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I don't know, but the more I look at Spot the dog, the more it looks like a goat! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Aw dear, just cracked myself up! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I must be missing something, but I can't see any obvious buttresses. :-\
But passuming the tower is buttressed, perhaps they were decorative, or added to fit in with the butresses on the church itself?
I can't see any either, unless they are hiding behind the tree.
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The attached link photograph shows half-shaft setback buttresses. On Caza's photo, they are plain setback buttresses at each corner of the tower.
http://www.crsbi.ac.uk/site/671/image/feature/8034/
Regards
Malky
Added :- A handy site for descriptions. Use the "back" and "next" options.
http://www.prestbury.net/magazine/church_architecture/page05.htm
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The attached link photograph shows half-shaft setback buttresses.
Oh ok, I see. I was looking for a larger kind of buttress on the tower. :)
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Near the top of the tower is an odd canopy type protrusion. I can't recall seeing this on a tower before.
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Near the top of the tower is an odd canopy type protrusion. I can't recall seeing this on a tower before.
On the wall itself? I thought that was the top of a shallow buttress :-\
I thought it was for a moment but it obviously isn't but has strong similarities for style
http://www.churchpics.co.uk/Oxfordshire/Nettlebed-St_Bartholomews2.jpg
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Near the top of the tower is an odd canopy type protrusion. I can't recall seeing this on a tower before.
On the wall itself? I thought that was the top of a shallow buttress :-\
On the right hand visible wall of the tower. Right at the very top. In the centre of the wall. A long rectangular sticky out bit. I have no clue what it is and havent found anything similar on a google search of church towers .... :-\
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The sticky out bit looks like the top of a buttress to me as well.
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St Bartholomew's, Nettlebed was designed by Hakewill (according to wiki) c. 1845, which might give a starting point.........
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The sticky out bit looks like the top of a buttress to me as well.
Yes, I think that seems right. I couldn't see the buttress continuing down the entire height of the tower, but I think it must do. :)
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St Bartholomew's, Nettlebed was designed by Hakewill (according to wiki) c. 1845, which might give a starting point.........
He seemed to completely rebuild a lot of churches keeping the tower - I'm wondering if Cazza's is a rebuild incorporating the base of the original tower. Although if they were in the process of restoring the tower I would have expected scaffolding.
The dormers are very tiny so I imagine for ventilation not light - I've only found similar on a couple of Edinburgh churches so far but I don't think this church looks Scottish.
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I can't recognise it.
A few observations though
Road is not tarmac'd, there are cobbled crossing points/routes, and there ARE kerbed pavements.
It's in an area with supplies of stone; while you might transport stone for the building itself, I would very strongly expect the wall around it to be local - and it's made of big blocks of stone.
I'm not sure the "dormer" windows are dormer windows. I think they might be ventilators on the ridge of the roof of the front building.
http://www.vulcanleadworks.com/blog/?project=unique-items
http://www.salvo.co.uk/nottinghamshire/arch-metalwork/cupola-roof-vent-x66770x1.html
BugBear
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I'm actually surprised this one hasn't been found. There have only been a couple (except Quirky Chapel) that have been a bit of problem.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say with hesitation that perhaps it's Wales.
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I immediately regret saying things like that because I don't want to send people off in the wrong direction as I don't have any evidence. ::) ::)
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The type of walling in the churchyard wall is indicative of Lancashire or Yorkshire.
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The type of walling in the churchyard wall is indicative of Lancashire or Yorkshire.
Thanks for that Clearly, that's a great tip!
Caz
PS Love your avatar! ;D ;D
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Using Trystan's tip from yesterday, about searching for images in Google, I found this site
http://www.churches-uk-ireland.org/unknown.html
Unfortunately, the page itself only shows links to the pictures, and not the pictures themselves.
But it may provide a few search tips ...
And at least it may be some consolation to know that others are also searching :)
Bob
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Added:
Found it ... (the image on the website, I mean !!) ... it's at the bottom of the page ...
Another old postcard from Mike Jones, this one offers no clues. It is rather distinctive however. The curious structure atop the tower looks wooden, and may possibly no longer be there.
It's the same photo, and the dog must be very patient ... he hung around long enough for the photographer to take a clearer picture ;D
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Thanks Bob.
Sadly though, I think Trystan's tip has basically killed the WAIs because there is no point to me posting, because as I said, if they can be found that easily using this method, I can just do that myself. :( :(
Caz
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I don't think it's killed it, merely confined the search to actual photos rather than postcards. You can still post all those Google doesn't find - I'm sure there will still be lots of them :)
Bob
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Added:
Found it ... (the image on the website, I mean !!) ... it's at the bottom of the page ...
Another old postcard from Mike Jones, this one offers no clues. It is rather distinctive however. The curious structure atop the tower looks wooden, and may possibly no longer be there.
It's the same photo, and the dog must be very patient ... he hung around long enough for the photographer to take a clearer picture ;D
Ha ha - this is funny.
Mike (Jones)
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A lot of the photos you've posted can't be found using the "find image" method, so don't stop posting. For instance after reading this, I tried it out with the statue I found using Google and key words. It didn't appear in images.
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Using Trystan's tip from yesterday, about searching for images in Google, I found this site
http://www.churches-uk-ireland.org/unknown.html
Bob
That's ironic, that's actually another "WAI" site.
Have a look at this, several people will remember WAI No. 40 I'm sure. Look at Barnsley under "Recently Identified" on Bob's link, that's my actual photo taken from Rootschat. Kicking myself for not watermarking! >:(
WAI No. 40:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=722001.msg5659566#msg5659566
Caz
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that's my actual photo taken from Rootschat. Kicking myself for not watermarking! >:(
But it says An old photo sent in by Mike Jones, and identified by himself a little while later, and by John R. Parker. so maybe there was was more than one copy of your photo :-\
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I can do a side by side comparison if you like and point out where I cloned out a black mark on the right hand side.
Not only that, this is a photo…printed on Kodak Paper..it's not a postcard.
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I can do a side by side comparison if you like and point out where I cloned out a black mark on the right hand side.
Not only that, this is a photo…printed on Kodak Paper..it's not a postcard.
But isn't our Mike in Cumbria, the Mike Jones who posted the images of churches that we didn't know to the WAI churches forum? So as to widen the search? So actually there is only one image - the church forum one is the duplicate of your original.
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I really don't know. There is no question that one on the other site is a duplicate of mine, just didn't know it was being posted there.
It's not an issue, just wish I'd known about it.
Caz
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I really don't know. There is no question that one on the other site is a duplicate of mine, just didn't know it was being posted there.
It's not an issue, just wish I'd known about it.
Caz
It would also have been courteous if the photo had been acknowledged as your property.
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I had no idea what all the 'Trystan's Tip' conversations were about until I realised that as I use Firefox, I don't have the option.. ;D
Still a bit puzzled though, has this one been identified or not? It has a tick by it but no placename
:) Barbara, the techno-challenged Firefox user 8)
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Barbara I was just about to ask the same question!
But it says An old photo sent in by Mike Jones, and identified by himself a little while later, and by John R. Parker. so maybe there was was more than one copy of your photo :-\
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I'm a bit lost too Barbara. I can't make any sense of Trystan and Bob's links, and I can't see that the church has been named .... :-\
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I had no idea what all the 'Trystan's Tip' conversations were about until I realised that as I use Firefox, I don't have the option.. ;D
Still a bit puzzled though, has this one been identified or not? It has a tick by it but no placename
:) Barbara, the techno-challenged Firefox user 8)
Hi Barbara
No, sorry it hasn't actually been identified. I was distracted as three of my pics have been posted on a separate forum that is along the lines of this board, I just wasn't aware of it until now.
Anyway, the hunt continues for this one unless the other site identifies my pic before a Rootschatter.
Caz
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Hi Caz. I found two of your other photos on the link supplied by Bob, but not this one.
I think I'm confusing myself. ::) ;D
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Should have said the other two on that link have been identified. One was WAI No. 40 identified by Mosiefish and the other was the church with the diamond roof tiles which took ages to find.
That site also refers to my pic as an old postcard. I don't think it is..it's been stuck to thin card which I stated in post 1. I think was because it is one of the early photos on the very thin paper, similar to others I have.
Caz
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If you click on the last link, just above the line where it says "Recently Solved", you will see this pic.
Caz
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Hope everyone is following, but basically WAI 158 is still not named.
Caz
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Thanks Caz. Well at least they were identified by rootschatters, so that is a positive thing.
I don't know that other site at all so have no clue how active the members are. (or tenacious ;))
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Thanks Caz. Well at least they were identified by rootschatters, so that is a positive thing.
I don't know that other site at all so have no clue how active the members are. (or tenacious ;))
Not a patch on Rootschatters! ;)
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Back up to speed now, thanks Caz :D
Going back to Bugbear's observations about the road and the stonework
Road is not tarmac'd, there are cobbled crossing points/routes, and there ARE kerbed pavements.
It's in an area with supplies of stone; while you might transport stone for the building itself, I would very strongly expect the wall around it to be local - and it's made of big blocks of stone.
Don't know how it would help, but is it possible that the two lampposts are therefore the oldeest items in the picture, i.e. erected before the road and the church wall? As one lamppost is inside the church grounds and the one on the street seems to have had the kerb built around it?
Perhaps there was a long time lapse between constructing the two parts (the back building first, then the tower building would be my guess - different window fashions), so the road/wall had to be remodelled to accomodate the new build?
Like I say, no idea how this might help!
:) Barbara
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I can do a side by side comparison if you like and point out where I cloned out a black mark on the right hand side.
Not only that, this is a photo…printed on Kodak Paper..it's not a postcard.
Sorry - didn't appreciate that.
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Sorry Jen, don't know what you mean.
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Sorry Jen, don't know what you mean.
I didn't realize that you were able to say positively that they were one and the same photo.
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Ah I get you, for a second there I thought I'd offended you! Phew! ;D ;D
Before I said anything I did a detailed comparison just to make sure. ;)
Just a bit surprised to see them on another site 'tis all.
Caz
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I can do a side by side comparison if you like and point out where I cloned out a black mark on the right hand side.
Not only that, this is a photo…printed on Kodak Paper..it's not a postcard.
But isn't our Mike in Cumbria, the Mike Jones who posted the images of churches that we didn't know to the WAI churches forum? So as to widen the search? So actually there is only one image - the church forum one is the duplicate of your original.
Yes - that is Cazza's photo. I found that site with loads of photos of old churches and emailed the photo of the Barnsley church to see if the owner recognised it. He didn't, but offered to put it on his site to see if any of his regulars knew as "they like challenge". Don't we all? It was identified on RC, just a few days before someone on the other site also found it. The owner hasn't come back to me with an ID for the latest one yet though - his regulars must have drawn a blank so far too.
Mike
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Christ Church, Folkestone - and there isn't much of it left, only the tower. There is now a garden of remembrance where the nave of the church once stood.
Look at this picture:
http://kent.lovesguide.com/gallery/folkestone_christchurch/003.jpg
There is some history and another picture here:
https://www.folkestonehistory.org/index.php?page=alias-3
This shows the tower with a bit more building on the top.
Nell
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Well done Nell!!! ;D
How did you find it?
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I've passed this church many times. Would never have recognised it!
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Nell, that's brilliant! How on earth did you find it?
The photo you've linked to here:
Look at this picture:
http://kent.lovesguide.com/gallery/folkestone_christchurch/003.jpg
is taken from a guide to church bells, and the page it's on has a bit more history, including the fact that the tower was built later (though it doesn't give the precise date):
http://kent.lovesguide.com/tower.php?id=452
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Well done Nell ;D
Now can you find number 12 ??? :)
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Well done Nell ;D
Now can you find number 12 ??? :)
:(
Yes please! I wish someone would. This is still driving me mad. (I was looking for it while working in a theory only last week but no luck)
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It was pure chance that I found the picture - I was looking for a picture of the church, having seen what it looks like now. I wanted to see what it looked like before it was destroyed. Mr Google presented lots of links to the school of the same name in Folkestone, and a few to the church which I scrolled through - and found the photo I linked to. Since I had reminded myself at New Year of the still unsolved photo locations, that picture was still fresh in my mind.
Very much more luck than any particularly focused search.
I'll keep hoping for another fluke for No 12 ;)
Nell
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It really pays to revisit the unsolved WAIs, as this proves. Well found!