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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Lisa Skeels on Friday 17 July 15 13:39 BST (UK)

Title: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: Lisa Skeels on Friday 17 July 15 13:39 BST (UK)
I am looking for some help on this one.  Family stories indicate that Ada Gray who was born in 1879 was a gipsy who married without the travelling community; I have a copy of her marriage certificate from 1902 in Whittlesey stating her father as John Gray, General Labourer.  It is said that her marriage did not work out and the couple lived apart for years and that she was not allowed to go back to her gipsy family.

I have traced John Gray's birth back to around 1852 in Whittlesey and it does seem that, during his childhood the family travelled between, Derbyshire, Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire.  John Gray married Isabella Whyman (I think, although I can find no evidence) between 1871 and 1881.  John's father was Samuel Gray, bn 1825 Whittlesey who married Isabella Goode 1850 in Whittlesey.  The 1881 Census finds them in Lancashire where Samuel was an excavator and barer of stone.  His occupations include hay cutter, labourer and excavator.

I think, although I am not sure, that his father may also have been Samuel Gray bn around 1793 in Fenstanton, Cambridgeshire; he married Letitia Bird.

I would like to be able to confirm the family links I have made and perhpas go back further.  It has also been said that the family travelled around Norfolk before finally settling in Whittlesey.  I can find no links to Norfolk ... yet.  Lots of the evidence fits to a travelling family and there are modern(ish) memories of travelling people visiting and being fondly welcomed by them.

Can anyone cast any light on this family - there are so many Grays I am going round in circles?

Thank you so much.

Lisa
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: Lisa Skeels on Sunday 04 October 15 15:23 BST (UK)
I am posting this reply to myself to bump my message. 
I am really struggling with this link to the Gray family, I'm not entirely sure they were part of the Gray Travelling family.  My oh's grandmother was Ada Gray and, as stated previously, there are family stories of a travelling history including visiting relatives at Grays Yard in Whittlesey.  I would be enormously grateful if anyone could throw some light on this for me.
Thanks again.

Lisa
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: rob g on Monday 05 October 15 10:24 BST (UK)
Hi Lisa. Without much information it can be hard tracing Romany people. But I. My father. And gfather have all known the grays. And camped with them. Large. And old traveller family. Moved around all uk. But grey is a common name. Anyway a gypsy girl who married a Gorgio. Non Romany. Could be cast out of the family. Or. Sometimes he would be accepted. And could change his surname to his wife's. Easier for him and the children. To intergreat.  Sometimes she never came home. Or she was chased. For bringing shame to the family. But she could just as easily be accepted. Anyway. occupations are a good source of information. Ie. Hawker. Dealer. Horse trading. Basket maker. Tinsmith. Potter. Brazier. Scrap. Or marine and rag merchant's.   Note. Most are self employed. Women. Often Dukkering. (Fortune. Telling) children seasonally did farm fruit picking. Not many labourers. Or permanent navvies./ farmhands.  In Romany.  Olso In those days people went where the work was often moving several times a year. Does not make them gypsies.  In gypsy. folks  In censuses. you. Will find them camping. Or Sometimes lodging. Some did have houses. As always look at those living around them. And people marrying into the family with Romany names. We tend to camp/live close to other traveller folks. Not very much. But might be a help.  Cushty bocht..( Good luck.)    ...Rob
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: Lisa Skeels on Monday 05 October 15 11:51 BST (UK)
Hi Rob

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.  You must have some fascinating stories to tell. I am trying to trace all Gray families from the early Census records to see if I can find a connection somewhere.

Thanks again

Kind regards

Lisa
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: baz54 on Tuesday 06 October 15 15:41 BST (UK)
Hi Lisa I don't know if this will help but I am descended from the Smith family gypsies from Buckinghamshire, Northants, Lincs and I read something the other day which linked the Smiths to the Grays, I can't find the article at the moment, I'm not very organised but I did come across this and thought that it might be of some help to your search? I'm sorry I have just realised that I don't think that I can put a direct link to the article in respect to the author but if you search for gypsygenealogy dot com you will find an article by Eric Trudgill, search in all articles under the letter "w" entitled William Gray.
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: Lisa Skeels on Tuesday 06 October 15 18:28 BST (UK)
Hi Baz

Thanks for that, I have had a quick look and will look further later.  I really am going round in circles with this one.  I think I may have committed a cardinal sin and followed someone else's research.  I can't find baptism records for many of my Grays which makes things even more difficult.  I know from my own Norfolk families that the first names they used were not always the names they were Christened by and that birth places are not always consistent.

I am now pretty sure I have confirmed the links from Ada back to Samuel Gray born around 1825 but I have been unable to confirm or find any evidence for his parentage.  My Gray's do not appear in Whittlesey in 1841 but I have found a Cornelius and Jane.

I now have more than one tree running to test all connections!!
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: panished on Tuesday 06 October 15 20:19 BST (UK)
hello Lisa

that was very nice of people who wrote to you trying to help, your so lucky in life to meet such people
 I suppose now I should say that your lucky not to meet the bad ones,  but you know now there's lots who just shame themselves and cherry pick fancy names ,there's lots now could help you, but I would say your lucky for the nice folk who have tried, them decent folk,

I should stop banging on about Sue Day, but I tell everyone she's the real deal, in genealogy she's a gift to suss the lot out, I tell you in one hour she would know if your relatives came from all you seek, one hour she could do it, I don't know if she's the mind, but just write to Romany genes web site and say I ask for her to tell you what you seek, if she says no ,well, I wont  not believe it, I do hope you find what you seek, but look how lucky you was to meet the nice people who tried to help a stranger

in life you are always you, that goes for everyone, nice to know things, nice to understand, but isn't it great to be you, and how nice it is to meet nice like minded folk , you  are a very lucky person in deed,

michael
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: Lisa Skeels on Wednesday 07 October 15 08:06 BST (UK)
Hello Michael

Thank you for this information, I am very grateful for any help and guidance regarding where to look for clues.

Kind regards

Lisa
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: An65 on Thursday 08 October 15 22:56 BST (UK)
Both Sue Day and Eric Trudghill are giants among the Gypsy Genealogy world and it will be worth your while contacting  both.

My gran was a Gray from Lincolnshire (although most Grays go back to Cambridgeshire if you go  back far enough, and mine did, and they did intermarry with Smiths.)

I have done a lot of Gray research and have not, sadly, come across your family. What I can say is this, when it comes to baptisms, they were generally baptised. Youd probably find only half as many legal marriages as you would baptisms. Even less burials. So dont worry too much if you cant find those. Not finding them is an indicator that they were a gypsy family, as they didnt worry too much about legal marriages they just did things their own way. The fact that they appear to be attached to Whittlesey is an indicator they were not Romanies - but that isnt always the case. A different group of Grays had strong links to Upwell/Outwell and quite a few baptisms took place there. Evidently a village that accepted them and probably where they "wintered" (Settled for the winter). Keep hunting and good luck.
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: Lisa Skeels on Friday 09 October 15 09:55 BST (UK)
Hi An65

Thanks for taking the time to respond - I was aware of your connection with the Grays from research on posts on this forum.  I have been rechecking all my information and have just realised that Ada Gray age 2 on the 1881 Census is in Branston, Lincolnshire.  Her older brother (the only other sibling on that census) was born in Derbyshire so they evidently did move around somewhat before settling in Whittlesey. Her father, Samuel, is listed as a Labourer.

I do feel as if I am going round in ever decreasing circles but am determined to find out once and for all if it is family folklore or fact.  I do know that a member of Ada's family was approached by a traveller who said "you're a Gray aren't you?".

I really wish I could find baptism records  ???

I appreciate what you say about Sue Day and Eric Trudghill and will contact them.

Thanks again

Lisa
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: An65 on Friday 09 October 15 20:11 BST (UK)
thats extremely interesting as my great great grandfather Sam Gray was baptised at Branston in 1848. The family appears to have wintered in Heckington and later North Kyme, and moved in a rough circle following the fairs during the year, taking in Lincoln Brigg and Horncastle.  Branston was along their route.
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: richarde1979 on Tuesday 13 October 15 09:06 BST (UK)
Whittlesey is linked on several occasions to other Romany Gypsy families in the same sort of era:

Josiah Smith, son of Josiah Smith 'Gypsey' and Mary buried at Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire on 21st April 1797. 

Honour Boswell, daughter of Ladger Boswell and Sarah, 'Gypsies' baptised at Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire on 6th March 1802.

Hezekiah Boswell, son of Vato Boswell and Cinderella Boswell (nee Hall) baptised at Whittlesey, Cambridgeshire, March 1825.


The birth of Elijah Herring was registered there in autumn 1837.  He was the father of Leopolus 'Poley' Herring/Heron. They were prominent members of the famous fortune telling encampment  at Blackpool Pleasure Beach from 1890-1915. The Rev. George Hall writes of them in his 1915 book 'The Gypsies Parson'

As these all occurred either in early spring or autumn, I would think maybe they visited this place for some sort of regular agricultural work, rather than using it as a winter stop over.

The only Samuel Gray I have in my records was the son of Collingwood  Gray and Frances Crosby  who was baptised in 1812, so doesn't seem to link to your people.

The Bird family are recorded living an itinerant lifestyle as early as 1732, when Elizabeth Bird, a vagrant: 16 years old, was taken ill in Hagley, Worcestershire . She described her father and mother as ‘wandering people’. She had received parish relief in Clent but was moved on as she had ‘stayed long enough’. She then became very ill and  crept into a barn from where she was taken to the house of the Overseer at Hagley. In March 1849, the famed Matthias ‘Matty’ Cooper, appeared before the Lent Assizes in Sussex charged with poisoning a pig at Ferring, Sussex alongside members of the Lee and Bird families. Uriah Cooper, a relative of Matty, is recorded in a tent at Holty Common, Hartfield, Sussex on the 1851 census, next to Kezia Cooper, his probable sister, her husband Joseph Junix and several members of the Bird family.  In 1861 three ‘Gipsies ‘ Riley, Levina and Alfred Bird are listed as sleeping in a barn at Covington, Northamptonshire next to families of Smiths, Davies and Fletchers in caravans. In 1881 Elijah Bird ‘No occupation; a Gipsy’ is recorded with his family, sleeping in a barn at Wistow Fen, Huntingdon. So your Samuel Gray and Letitia Bird marriage could definitely be Romany people.

Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: Lisa Skeels on Tuesday 13 October 15 12:46 BST (UK)
Hello Richarde

I am so grateful to you for this information; it does give me more places to look.

Thanks again

Lisa
Title: Re: Grays of Whittlesey
Post by: Courts1010 on Wednesday 01 July 20 17:24 BST (UK)
hello Lisa,
i have just came across your post whilst looking into my family (the grays from whittlesey).
I am a descendant of John Gray and Isabella. They had a child called Esther Elizabeth Gray who went on to change her name to Elizabeth Gray. She is the Great Grandmother of my mum. I was just wondering if by any chance over the past couple of years that you have managed to find out any more information on this family. We can see that in 1891 census records, Ada(my mums great grandmothers sister)  lived at home with her parents in whittlesey but from the census in 1901 she no longer lived there. So at some point in those 10 years must have been when she went on to marry the gorger boy. Would it be possible to have a copy of her marriage certificate please?