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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: sage on Saturday 18 July 15 13:15 BST (UK)
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Hi All...I've got myself tied up in knots over the above family. :)
Some background info here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=669720.0
but as it's a lengthy post I will summarise.
Elizabeth Hamilton was born circa 1841 in Hamilton to Thos Hamilton & Marion Inglis. She married Robt Crawford in Dec 1863 in Pembrokeshire at which time he was a spirit merchant of New Milford. A daughter, Marion Inglis Crawford was born 19 Jan 1865 where Robt is referred to as R. J. Crawford.
An 1861 census was sourced in the previous post for Robt Crawford, aged 25, Chief Steward, married, born Ayrshire, Scotland and on board S.S. Courier in Pembrokeshire.
Last sighting of him is via a publication in the London Gazette dated 21 Feb 1865 by the Registrar of the Court of Bankruptcy for Robert J. Crawford of the Mariner's Inn, New Milford but....
by 1871 Elizabeth Crawford is a widow in Llanstadwell, Pembroke, Licensed Victuallar and I'm struggling to find Robt's death. The most likely options are:
Robert Crawford died Liverpool aged 33 Mar Qtr 1871 (8b 172) or aged 35, Woolwich Jun Qtr 1871 (1d 574). The 1871 census was taken 02 Apr 1871 and the latter death was registered in the Apr, May, Jun Qtr of that year. I suppose it's possible that Elizabeth was widowed in March and the death registered in the following month?
A second daughter was born to Robt & Elizabeth...Susan born Dec Qtr 1866 Pembroke (11a 732) and she possibly married as Susan McLean Crawford Jun Qtr 1894 to Josiah Evans or George Orlando Patey.
With that in mind I searched for a Robt Crawford born Ayrshire with a mother Susan and I found a family in 1841 in River St Wallacetown in the parish of St Quivox, Ayrshire:
Mrs Crawford aged 50, a Sewer, born Ayrshire
Susan Crawford aged 30, born Ireland
Isabella Crawford aged 10, born Ayrshire
Janet Crawford aged 8, born Ayrshire
Robert Crawford aged 4, born Ayrshire
1851 at Garden St Wallacetown:
Susan Crawford, aged 40, born Ireland
Robert Crawford, aged 14, born St Quivox
and 3 McFee visitors
The problem is I can't tie all this together. I don't know what Susan Crawford's maiden name is or who she married. If this is the Robt Crawford I'm looking for in Wallacetown and on the SS Courier in 1861 then it's possible he was married before he met Elizabeth Hamilton in Pembroke in 1863.
I hesitate to access the marriage of Robt and Elizabeth because it will likely only tell me the name of Robt's father and not his mother. Does anyone have some suggestions as to the next step I might take?...Please. ;D
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Robert Crawford who died in Liverpool in 1871 does not appear to be the man you are looking for
There is a matching probate
Date of death: 19 Jan 1871. Occ: Victualler
He was unmarried and his next of kin was his father: Mr John Crawford (a Carter) of Girvan
Family can be identified 1841 onwards.
Both John Crawford and wife Mary were born in Ireland, all children, including son Robert show as born in Ballantrae
Unfortunately, there is no matching probate for Robert Crawford who died in Woolwich in 1871
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Hi as others have found cannot locate readily a death for Robert. all I can confirm is that if Susan Mclean Crawford is his daughter who married in 1894 she married the Josiah Evans, George Orlando Patey is with an Esther M in 1901 the Esther Maria Morgan on same page 1894
Keyboard86
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Elizabeth Hamilton was born circa 1841 in Hamilton to Thos Hamilton & Marion Inglis. She married Robt Crawford in Dec 1863 in Pembrokeshire at which time he was a spirit merchant of New Milford. A daughter, Marion Inglis Crawford was born 19 Jan 1865 where Robt is referred to as R. J. Crawford.
An 1861 census was sourced in the previous post for Robt Crawford, aged 25, Chief Steward, married, born Ayrshire, Scotland and on board S.S. Courier in Pembrokeshire.
To much to take in at 1 time...............by the time I finished reading I'd forgotten what the question was & who I was looking for ;D
You state Elizabeth Hamilton married Robert Crawford in 1863 so who was Robert's wife when you found him married in 1861 ???
Annie
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Ammack,
To clarify:
The man who married Elizabeth Hamilton in 1863 was a Spirit Merchant living in New Milford, Pembrokeshire
On an 1861 census a 25 yr old Robert Crawford, born in Ayrshire, was Chief Steward aboard "The Courier" in New Milford.
It simply states that his marital status as: Married
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Hi again still looking for a death for Robert, but as Elizabeth Crawford was at The Picton Castle in 1891 with Susan, in 1901 a married Susan Evans b c 1871 Married Occ Licensed Victualler along with others a Marion Gilbert married as sister.
Census ref RG13/5126/14/20
Keyboard86
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Ammack,
To clarify:
The man who married Elizabeth Hamilton in 1863 was a Spirit Merchant living in New Milford, Pembrokeshire
On an 1861 census a 25 yr old Robert Crawford, born in Ayrshire, was Chief Steward aboard "The Courier" in New Milford.
It simply states that his marital status as: Married
Anne......
I could see that from the 1st post ::) so my question is.............. is this the same man or not as there's nothing about his background ???
Sage......
How old was Robert when he married & what was his father's name & occupation ???
Was he single/widowed/previously married when he married Elizabeth in 1863 ???
Annie
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Ammack,
I now see what you see and I'm confused too
Sage states that he/she is hesitant about obtaining the 1863 marriage cert because it will only provide a father's name.
How does Sage know that Robert Crawford was a Licensed Victualler of New Milford at the time of his 1863 marriage to Elizabeth Hamilton?
This info could only have come from the marriage cert, or is there something I've missed?
Edit:
Elizabeth Crawford, (maiden name Hamilton) of The Picton Castle Hotel, Neyland, Pembrokeshire died on 19 Jun 1899
There is a probate for her and I think I can safely assume that the executors were her daughters
Susan Evans ( wife of Josiah Evans) and Marion Gilbert ( wife of Thomas Gilbert)
Effects £117 5s
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Ammack,
I now see what you see and I'm confused too
Sage is hesitant about obtaining the 1863 marriage cert because it will only provide a father's name.
How does Sage know that Robert Crawford was a Licensed Victualler of New Milford at the time of his 1863 marriage to Elizabeth Hamilton?
This info could only have come from the marriage cert, or is there something I've missed?
It's also the only way to find out his occupation, who his father was unless that line is of no real interest but it's the only way to find out if this is the same person in 1861 previously married ???
Annie
ADDED.....Says Robert was a spirit merchant of New Milford when they married on initial post
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Hi again the Robert Crawford death in Woolwich could be the Robert Crawford aged 36 with wife Frances A at Anglesea Road Woolwich in 1871?
Census ref RG10/785/23/40
Keyboard86
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Hi again the Robert Crawford death in Woolwich could be the Robert Crawford aged 36 with wife Frances A
A possible 3rd marriage ??? ::) ;D
Maybe kept asking for their "hand" when he was intoxicated & felt he had to follow it through ;D
Annie
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;D Looking at the original he was a Private in the Army, so maybe not a "Remarriage "
Keyboard86
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the occupation for the groom possibly came from a newspaper announcement of the marriage.
The Pembroke Herald & General Advertiser for the 18 Jan 1867 has an article headed "Supposed Shipwreck and Loss of Life" which is about a ship which left New Milford for Glasgow and hadn't been heard from. A Mr Crawford of Neyland & his son were on board & were supposed dead with the rest of the passengers & crew. It mentions that Mr Crawford was a native of Glasgow.
The same paper a week later confirms the loss of the Sicilia off Islay.
http://newspapers.library.wales/
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Thank you everyone for venturing into the realms of another 'Sage' mystery. Really sorry Annie about the information overload but was trying to give an overview of the whole sorry saga!
I knew Robt Crawford was spirit merchant when he married Elizabeth Hamilton because of a notice of marriage in the 'Pembrokeshire Herald & General Advertiser' dated 18 Dec 1863.
Marion Inglis Crawford (later Gilbert) was born 19 Jan 1865 (father on birth notice R.J. Crawford)
I couldn't find a birth notice for Susan Crawford but Freebmd have her born in the Dec Qtr 1866.
The death Osprey found appears to be a match especially as reference was made in 'The Pembrokeshire Herald & General Advertiser' Jan 25, 1867 as to the demise of 'Mr Crawford & son of Neyland'.
newspapers.library.wales/view/3056221/3056223/10/sicilia
I was trying to find a matching death on Freebmd but there doesn't appear to be one...that's why I was looking at the possibility of Robt Crawford dying in 1871 as there weren't that many options.
The fact that there was 'a son' reported as missing with Robt suggests to me that there was a marriage before Elizabeth Hamilton given that Robt and Elizabeth had just the two daughters.
It also seems proven that Susan McLean Crawford (Mrs Josiah Evans) is the daughter of Robt and Elizabeth which I hope points to the possibility of Robt's mother being Susan Crawford (nee McLean).
I was hoping to find a death on S/P for the same but nothing is ever that easy. ;D
The general consensus seems to be that I should get the marriage cert of Robt and Elizabeth but again I'm thinking that it may well say that Robt is a widower but not to whom he was married. ::)
I wonder was their a passenger/crew list printed of the SS Sicilia and if the son's name would have been disclosed.
Again, thanks everyone, it was very exciting to see all the responses this morning. I really appreciate all your insight.
Cheers, Sage.
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Hi Sage,
What an interesting story :)
There are several references to the loss of the SS Sicila in the Glasgow Herald during January 1867- you can view for free on https://news.google.com/newspapers
Seems the weather was appalling on the West Coast of Scotland early January and there were several ships wrecked/sank.
Have you checked the Marine Death registers for Robert Crawford?
His son must have been born during the late 1850s /early 1860s if he was born to a first marriage so there should be a birth register . If Robert was a married seaman on 1861 Census his wife could be living with child at another port. There are a couple of Robert Crawfords marry in Liverpool during the mid/late 1850s - one of them is a Robert James ? Perhaps a red herring ::) one of these men could be the other Ayrshire born Robert Crawford whose death you have in 1871.
Good luck with your research,
Looby :)
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I was looking at the articles in the Glasgow Herald too.
I found one which eventually listed all crew members on board but there was no Robert Crawford among them.
If he was aboard,it suggests that he was a passenger
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the report in the Pembrokeshire Herald mentioned Mr Crawford as a passenger. He was on his way to visit family in Glasgow.
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may be interesting to note that in 1906 the license of the Picton Castle was transferred from mr Hamilton to Mrs Marion Crawford Inglis. mr Hamilton had decided to return to Scotland as it was "too warm" in Neyalnd
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from earlier in 1906 (August)
LICENSING. On the application of Mr F. S. Reed, who applied on behalf of the Official Receiver, the license of the Picton Castle Inn, Neyland, previously held by Mrs Susan Evans, was transferred to Thomas Hamilton, of Glasgow.
By Feb 1907 the inn was said to have been closed since the previous October
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Hi again,
Don't know if you've come across this info earlier but I'll post and risk duplication .
There are 2 Crawford deaths listed on FreeBMD which look interesting.
Both are recorded in the December quarter of 1862 in the district of Pembroke -
Janet Crawford vol.11a page 403
Thomas Hamilton Crawford vol.11a page 403
The male's name in particular caught my eye. These deaths were before Robert Crawford married Elizabeth Hamilton.
Looby :)
Added - There is also a birth for a Thomas Hamilton Crawford same quarter of 1862 same place = vol11a page 641
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Added - There is also a birth for a Thomas Hamilton Crawford same quarter of 1862 same place = vol11a page 641
Good work Looby,
Annie
EDITED..........to delete wrong info. ::) ::)
Should have gone to Specsavers ;D
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There is also a baptism of a Robert Crawford = https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1RS-7JF Parents are Robert Crawford and Ann ?? on 4th Fay 1859 at Pembroke Dock, Pembroke.
Could this be Robert with a 1st wife and the son who travels with him on SS Sicilia in 1867 ?
Looby :)
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Added - There is also a birth for a Thomas Hamilton Crawford same quarter of 1862 same place = vol11a page 641
Good work Looby,
This Thomas possibly ???
from earlier in 1906 (August)
LICENSING. On the application of Mr F. S. Reed, who applied on behalf of the Official Receiver, the license of the Picton Castle Inn, Neyland, previously held by Mrs Susan Evans, was transferred to Thomas Hamilton, of Glasgow.
Annie
Hi Annie,
I think that the Thomas Hamilton Crawford born in 1862 dies as a baby. There is a birth and death recorded in same Dec quarter :-\ I wonder if he was called after Thomas Hamilton.
Looby :)
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Looby........
Forget my post.................too tired, didn't notice Crawford, was focused on the Thomas ;D ::)
Annie
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Thank you everyone for your input re Robt Crawford and the Hamiltons. I did see the two Crawford births and have recorded them on my tree as I do believe they must have been born to Elizabeth Crawford (nee Hamilton).
Here's a little timeline that might help:
Robt Crawford died Jan 1867 on board SS Sicilia
Marion Inglis Crawford m Wm Edward Gilbert in 1889
Susan McLean Crawford m Josiah Evans in 1894
Marion Hamilton (Elizabeth's mother) d 1896
Thomas Hamilton snr (Elizabeth's father) d 1897
Elizabeth Crawford d 1899
So when it comes to a tsf of license in 1906 that must be from Marion Gilbert (nee Crawford) to her uncle Thomas Hamilton (Elizabeth's brother) b 1839. I haven't been able to trace him since the 1881 census aged 40, Married (to whom?) and serving as a steward on the SS Malakoff in Pembrokeshire...thanks Mabel! I can focus my search in Glasgow now.
As for Robt Crawford's death...I haven't had experience with the Marine Death Register so if anyone can advise how I go about that it would be handy. I'm thinking that Robt died in Scottish waters? Does that mean it will come up on S/P?
Looby, your sighting of a Robt Crawford birth to Robt snr and an Ann in 1859 may be another clue in locating Robt Crawford in his life pre-Elizabeth...thank you. :)
Mabel, your information re the licensing of the hotel...is that accessible? And does anyone know just how many lives were lost when the Sicilia foundered?
Life was so precarious back then... :(
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Susan Evans' bankruptcy
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4162305/4162307/43/
Licence from Susan Evans to Thomas Hamilton
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4117452/4117456/41/
and from Thomas Hamilton to Marion Gilbert
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3064245/3064249/40/
Later temporary closure of the hotel
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3433309/3433312/48/
Some complicated buying and reselling of hired furniture following Susan Evans' bankruptcy
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4250846/4250854/95/
Marion is charged with selling after hours - item suggests she has sold the pub
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3064425/3064429/38/
Marion went on to the Malsters Arms in Pembroke, but appears not to have made much of a go of that either.
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4282184/4282186/21/
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And a bit more on Marian Gilbert's difficulties
Non recording of spirits received
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4281716/4281722/60/
Charged with being drunk on the premises
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3415878/3415883/149/
Alleged Sunday trading
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4281950/4281957/53/
non payment of rates
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4282229/4282237/112/
her life can;t have been easy, as her husband died in 1902 whilst she was pregnant
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3645878/3645881/18/
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Hi Sage,
I have been refreshing my memory reading up on your other thread which you linked at the beginning of this one (I contributed to it back in 2013/ not that I remembered :-[ ) -
So can I ask did you ever find out what happened to Janet Hamilton, the older sister of Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Hamilton and Marion Inglis ?
I ask because - and of course this could be a huge co-incidence - but a Robert Crawford married a Janet Hamilton in Hamilton Lanarkshire on 29th Nov 1858. And with there being a death of a Janet Crawford in Pembroke during the same quarter of 1862 as a baby Thomas Hamilton Crawford, it does make me wonder if this could be mother and baby deaths :-\
Apologies if this sounds like adding 2 + 2 and making 10.
I looked on SP deaths for Robert in 1867 - SP also has Minor Records which includes Marine Deaths but unfortunately I had no luck finding Robert. I would imagine there would need to be a death cert somewhere especially if he had a business and Elizabeth would be his next of kin /heir. I'm not sure where English/Welsh deaths at sea would be registered.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby,
Wouldn't it be typical if some of our answers were right there under our noses! ;D
I like the way you're thinking because no I never did work out what happened to Janet but she was the eldest sister so it's not so difficult to believe that the scenario you describe could have happened. Thanks, I'll mull over that all day as I am trotting off to work now. :'(
Will investigate further later and thanks...
Sage.
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;D ;D Looby, you're a Legend!
You know, when I saw those deaths of the Thomas Hamilton Crawford and a Janet Crawford together in Pembrokeshire with the same volume and page numbers I automatically thought of twins...duh! I might have questioned it if Janet was recorded with an age. :P
With names like Crawford and Hamilton I suppose I did think that it was a coincidence that a Janet Hamilton could marry a Robt Crawford in Lanarkshire and an Elizabeth Hamilton might marry someone of the same name in Pembrokeshire but it just never occurred to me that it would be the same Robt Crawford!!! ::)
So while I'm doing cartwheels here I best transcribe the marriage cert which I downloaded the minute I got back in the door this afternoon...I was so certain that you were onto a winner, Looby.
29th November 1858 at 17 Low Patrick St Hamilton
Robert Crawford aged 23 of 17 Low Patrick St Hamilton
Steward on board a steam vessel (bachelor)
Son of Robt Crawford (Mason) deceased and Susan Crawford, maiden name McLean
married Janet Hamilton aged 27 of 17 Low Patrick St Hamilton
Spinster, daug of Thomas Hamilton (Thatcher) and Marion Hamilton, maiden name Inglis
Witnesses were James Horston & James Steel
So that's a major advancement in my research and a big thank you to Mabel for giving me the links to all the newspaper reports...I will enjoy taking all that in too.
If anyone has any further advice re finding a death cert for Robt Crawford that would be much appreciated. And I suppose now I can focus on finding out if the Robt Crawford I have on the censuses in St Quivox is the correct one.
Thanks again everyone,
Sage.
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Good morning Sage ;D
I'm absolutely thrilled my hunch re - Janet Hamilton & Robert Crawford paid off!
Like you, I was very aware that the couple marrying in 1858 could have been an entirely different Robert and Janet .
But it looks like Robert married Janet in Nov 1858 then after her death married her younger sister Elizabeth in Dec 1863.
And it's probable that Robert and Janet had at least 1 child -Thomas Hamilton Crawford who died as a baby.
Bearing in mind that the daughters with his second wife are named following the traditional 'Scottish naming ' plan ie.
first daughter named after mother's mother - Marion Inglis Crawford
second daughter named after father's mother - Susan McLean Crawford
that would make me wonder if there was an earlier son to Janet Hamilton.
First son?? after father's father - Robert Crawford
Second son ?? after mother's father - Thomas Hamilton Crawford
Again I'm adding 2+2 and making 10 ::) but this would make sense if Robert was lost on the SS Sicilia with a son (poor wee soul) as the newspapers suggest. Also having a young surviving child would perhaps explain how Robert came to marry his sister-in-law.
I'm not sure where you could look for Robert's death cert or when it would be issued (maybe they never found his remains ). Looking for an obituary might help. Or a burial/ memorial headstone possibly at Pembroke ? There are other articles btw. regarding the loss of the SS Sicilia in the Greenock Telegraph and Clyde Shipping Gazette but these are pay to view on British Newspaper Archive and may not give you any more on the disaster that you already have.
As for chasing up Robert in Ayrshire - Is his mother recorded as alive on his first marriage cert?
If she is not down as deceased it may mean she was still alive and therefore there should be a death certificate for her.
Good luck,
Looby :)
PS. Added - my last paragraph reads like nonsense :P What I mean is if Susan Crawford nee McLean was still alive in 1858 when her son marries it means, unless she moved away from Scotland, there should be at a later date (sometime after Nov 1858) a Death Cert for her on SP. Phew !
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Hi Looby,
No there's no mention of Susan Crawford (nee McLean) being deceased on the marriage cert of Robt and Janet. I think there's a fair chance that the censuses I found in Ayrshire could be our Robt with mother Susan but I was disappointed that Robt's address in 1858 was the same as Janet's. As a steward on a steam ship, I have no idea how he might have met up with Janet Hamilton in Hamilton, Lanarkshire. I still have some work to do but I'm rapt that we've come this far.
I think you're right in your suggestion that the son that died with Robt Crawford in the shipwreck would also have been Robt...so I will see if I can find his birth. I also need to track down Janet and Elizabeth Hamilton's brother, Thomas so will keep at it.
Shame, I forget to eat sometimes! ;D
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Just found this thread. Very interesting reading. Elizabeth is my 1st cousin 4x removed
Karen
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Hi Karen,
I don't have a personal connection to the Hamilton/Inglis family featured in this post but I hope you found this research as intriguing as I did at the time. It proved to be a challenge for our Rootschatters and demonstrates just how fortunate we are to have such wonderful volunteers to help us with our family mysteries. I hope you got something out of the information posted and it helped to advance your own research.
Sage.