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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Breconshire => Wales => Breconshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 18 July 15 23:36 BST (UK)
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If anyone is going to Powys archives any time, would it be possible to see if there are marriage licences available for Llanfrynach there please?
I'm looking for Thomas Davies to Mary Davies - married by licence on 24 October 1834 in Llanfrynach.
Many thanks,
Deirdre
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Hi Deirdre
there is a copy of the licence on FindMyPast
"Thomas Davies of Llanfrynach in the county of Brecon, Innkeeper and Mary Davies of the parish aforesaid in the county of Brecon, spinster was married in this church by licence on (the date you list)
Thomas signs his name and Mary marks with a cross.
Witnesses - Elizabeth Lewis and Walter Davies
Mar
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Hi Mar, sorry I assumed that was the marriage entry - that's where I got the details from - and that there was a separate licence!!
Not seen many marriages by licence before....
Deirdre
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Ooh, I don't know Deirdre :-\ - will have to investigate :)
Mar
Edit - good link here Deirdre https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Marriage_Allegations,_Bonds_and_Licences_in_England_and_Wales
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Great link, thanks Mar.
I have to admit that I did wonder about the licence not banns, and interesting to see one of the reasons for a licence was difference in age. Mary married again in 1844 and the only Thomas Davies burial in llanfrynach is aged 60 something (can't remember exactly) so I was wondering if that was him, though he would be a lot older than Mary. If there is a licence it could prove interesting.
Deirdre
Edited to add - there is a Thomas Davies with Mary in 1841 but was assumed to be her father or father in law not her husband. But a child born in 1842 also suggests that the Thomas may be an older husband!!
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I'm not sure if you've seen this entry of a marriage in the Cambrian Index online - names the pub at which a Thomas Davies was the innkeeper as the White Swan Inn.
If this is the same Mary, I'm thinking Llachvane is Llechfaen ?
http://www2.swansea.gov.uk/_info/cambrian/default.asp?Indexlist=X00&stext=thomas+thomas&sWord=All&..=&x=1&JournalList=AL&offset=5160
I can see the baptism on 1 October 1837 of Thomas, to Thomas (victualler) and Mary of Llanfrynach Village, and the burial of a 69 year old Thomas on September 5th 1837
In FindMyPast (newspapers) a Thomas Davies, White Swan Inn, comes up in 1864 and 1867
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Hi Mar, thanks for these (hadn't seen them before).
It's very confusing as there are lots of Thomas Davieses!!! But what I have so far is:
Marriage of Thomas Davies and Mary Davies at Llanfrynach on 24 Oct 1834
Baptisms of:
Mary on 27 Sep 1835, Thomas a parish clerk (and burial on 3 Dec 1838)
Thomas on 1 Oct 1837, Thomas a victualler
Mary on 29 Dec 1839, Thomas a clerk and
David on 20 Mar 1842, Thomas a parish clerk.
In 1841 at the White Swan is Thomas Davies aged 65, Marry Davies aged 35 and children Thomas 3 and Marry 1, which suggests the baptisms are right, despite Thomas being listed as a clerk on Mary's.
Mary marries again on 12 July 1844 - to another Thomas Davies. Both fathers are Thomas Davies, labourers.
Looking for a death of a Thomas Davies at Llanfrynach between 1841 and 1844 brings up a burial on 5 Sep 1843 aged 69. No other details. Apart from his age, this all seems to fit perfectly and matches the age of the Thomas on the 1841.
In 1851 still at the White Swan are Thomas and Marry, Thomas 13, Marry 11 and David 9, plus 3 more children and mother in law Marry aged 90. This again confirms the baptisms of the children so I assume Thomas was a clerk / parish clerk as well as a victualler :-\ It might also confirm that Thomas was still alive at the time of David's baptism as if parish clerk was an important role it would surely (hopefully) say 'former' or something if he was no longer around.
By 1861 Thomas is married to Margaret and there is a burial of Mary on 27 Aug 1851.
Thomas and Margaret are still at the White Swan in 1871. I've lost them at the moment in 1881 but both Thomas's son William and stepson Thomas are in Llanfrynach in 1891 (pub not listed by name) and in 1901 stepson Thomas is the innkeeper and blacksmith suggesting a family connection for over 60 years.
Amazing to think that the White Swan is still a pub today; hope to visit it soon.
Thanks again for your interest Mar.
Deirdre
PS as Mary is listed as Marry in the censuses - as is her daughter - maybe they were really Marie not Mary :-\
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I had a lovely meal recently in the White Swan, and it is well worth a visit !
There is a book (available to read online) called, 'Where we belong: life in the Beacons then and now' published by Llanfrynach and Cantref Women's Institute, that is really about more recent life, but worth a scan through. I purchased the hard copy for an aunt who loved reminiscing about some of the people and places. One paragraph says:
The White Swan was the home of more than one generation of blacksmiths of the Davies family, and it seems likely that the pub was a sideline to the smithy, probably run by the women of the household. As it was the smith to whom people turned when they needed a tooth pulled, the neighbouring pub would surely have been a blessing!
http://www.llanfrynach-community.org.uk/public_html/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/WWBII-PDF.pdf
A couple of other links
Thomas Davies was tenant by the curtesy in right of his deceased wife, Mary Davies, of the White Swan Inn at Llanfrynach, and on the 28th of October, 1885, granted, in exercise of the power conferred upon him by the Settled Estates Act, 1877 ...
https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#tbm=bks&q=White+Swan+Inn%2BLlanfrynach%2BDavies
This one shows a Thomas Davies as landlord of the Swan Inn in 1820, if your man would have been in his 40s
http://brecon-leisurecentre.powys.gov.uk/uploads/media/B_D_BM_S_bi_01.pdf
item 54 (1820) under friendly societies
It seems odd that there is no local newspaper acknowledgment of his death, given his role in the community?
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Hi Mar, amazing to hear you've had a meal there!!
Thanks for the links; just seen them on my phone (computer already shut down for the night) so will have a proper look after work tomorrow.
I've found a few more bits on the family today (thomas and margaret, thomas' son william and family) but nothing more on the 1841 Thomas or the one born in 1837 (my husband's direct ancestors) so plenty more for me to do yet!
Deirdre
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Deirdre
have you seen this on page 728 (not sure which Thomas it is) from 1903
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/11530/page/728/data.pdf
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Deirdre
have you seen this on page 728 (not sure which Thomas it is) from 1903
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/11530/page/728/data.pdf
Hi Mar, yes about an hour ago! Got home from work, quick dinner, then on the computer ::)
It was the one born in 1837 (my husband's ggg grandfather). We knew he was in Cilfynydd by 1911 (a widower lodging with his son's father in law ::)). This is great as it shows he was there in 1903, at the house where his son David Thomas Davies and his wife were living in 1901. Neither Thomas nor his wife Gwenllian are buried in Llanfrynach so I'm hoping Gwenllian's death will be in Pontypridd, and then find Thomas's too (there are a couple!).
By 1911 David and his wife had a large family (8 children) so I guess it was easier for Thomas to lodge elsewhere (though they then had 8 people in their house, inc 2 young children). But he's not with them by the 1915 electoral register which may narrow down his death.
The Thomas who was at the pub in 1851, 1861 and 1871 died in 1886 (he was a farmer of 101 acres at Trallong in 1881). His son William was at the pub in 1881 and probably still in 1891 (pub not listed in the census), before he died in 1893, aged 45. The 1837 Thomas was back in Llanfrynach (as a blacksmith) by 1891 and presumably took over after William's death until sometime soon after 1901.
Have looked at the links you sent last night, thanks. That listing of Thomas as landlord in 1820 is fascinating, though I'm no nearer finding out if he is Thomas b1837's father or grandfather. I'll have to see if Powys archives will look for the licence, though I guess that may not say anything about his age. I have to admit that I'm thinking it's his father - despite his age - though nothing concrete to prove it.
Fascinating hobby this family history, though it can take over a bit!
Thanks again for all your help, much appreciated. As you say, strange not to find any obits or more stories given the long family links with the area.
Deirdre
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Deirdre
if you go back to the FindMyPast marriage images, they start in 1813 (marriage of David Evans) in the presence of Thos Davies (clerk). The clerk continues to witness marriages on every page of the register, and (if they are one and the same person) on the same page as the wedding of Thomas Davies (innkeeper) to Mary Davies. The last time I can see him signing against a marriage is 1839 (marriage of Priscilla Roberts).
In terms of the question, "Is Thomas, innkeeper and Thomas, clerk/parish clerk the same person?" have a look at the handwriting in the wedding signature of Thomas and those of the parish clerk. I think they may the same (albeit Thomas not Thos on own wedding), but you would sign your full name on your marriage certificate.
Margaret
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Margaret, that would be amazing, I'm going to have a look now :) I wonder if that was why he needed a licence to marry :-\
I emailed Powys archives about the licence last night, and Powys registrars re the 1837 Thomas Davies birth (I'd found a birth in the Sep 1837 quarter which looked good for his 1 Oct baptism. Amazingly it's his birth, in the inn. Must be one of the earliest births registered. Copy on order.
Back later, Deirdre
Edited to add: I have to agree Margaret, many of the Davies 'clerk' signatures as well as his own marriage signature have a very distinctive loop at the top of the 'D' - that is really exciting, and makes me think that he was the Thomas Davies at the inn in 1841 and our Thomas's father, not grandfather. I'm off to have a look and see what the clerk's role was.....
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It seems parish clerks usually had a day job as well, they were generally appointed for life and were responsible for administrative matters within the church. It will be interesting to see what his occupation is given as on Thomas' birth certificate ;D
All makes sense and probably explains his role in the friendly society too.
Learning a lot today :)
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There is an old post on Rootschat about the desired characteristics of a parish clerk
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,243105
Would give a clue to his family history in terms of being able to read/write.
Still think there must be more about his death somewhere, although doesn't seem to be anything in the old newspapers?
Have you been to the grave yard at all to see if there is a headstone?
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Thanks Margaret,
If we go to the archives we can have a look at the old newspapers kept there, maybe they are just not online yet; you would certainly imagine there'd be something on him if he was clerk for all those years, and a long standing resident of the village.
Have you been to the grave yard at all to see if there is a headstone?
Not yet; I'd never even heard of Llanfrynach until a few weeks ago ::)
Deirdre
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Powys archives don't seem to have any newspapers from the time of Thomas' death; they all start much later, the Brecon Journal from 1855 being the earliest.
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I cant see anything in Welsh Newspapers Online in that specific year of his death http://newspapers.library.wales/
It seems Thomas was also dealing in coal with business partners - quite the entrepreneur :)
https://discover.llgc.org.uk/default.ashx?q=%22thomas+Davies%22
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Thanks for all your efforts on my behalf Margaret, much appreciated. That's another I haven't seen :-[
I've just been putting a timeline together and it's literally just dawned on me :-[ that there should be a death registration for him, which should provide some of the answers (hopefully at / of the inn, husband of Mary, parish clerk ....).
Will order that tomorrow when I ring Powys to pay for Thomas 1837's birth cert.
Deirdre
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Sadly Powys archives don't have any marriage licences :-[
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I had the same problem with no licence for my Breconshire family, and it has stopped me getting back further as sadly no fathers names on old marriages.
It will be revealing to see what it says on 1837 Thomas' birth cert, and also the death certificate for 'old Thomas'.
If 'old Thomas' is the dad of 1837 Thomas, he was 63 when he was born, so possibly could he have been married before? The plot could thicken ;)
bit more detail on 1837 Thomas in Cilfynydd from the Evening Express 1903
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4135685/4135689/119/davies%20AND%20blacksmith
A meeting of the creditors of Thomas Davies, blacksmith, now of 31, Mary-street, Cilfynydd, and formerly of the White Swan Inn, Llanfrynach, Breconshire, was held to- day at Merthyr. The debtor returned his liabilities at £171 18s. 2d., and his assets at only £1 2s. 4d., this sum representing a book debt which he set down as good. The deficiency, therefore, amounted to £170 15s. 10d. Bad trade, ill-health of himself and his wife, and want of capital were the causes to which he ascribed his failure.
I had a look at burials in Llanfabon, and can see a Gwenllian Davies of Cilfynydd buried in 1904 aged 64, and a Thomas Davies of Cilfynydd buried 1911 aged 73. Seems a little bit of a way out to be buried, but possible?
Mar
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Morning Margaret (you were up late!).
The Thomas Davies - Mary Davies marriage in 1834 says Thomas was a bachelor so I was assuming not, though strange if he was that age. Will let you know what the certs say.
Thanks again for the info, you have found some really interesting items which add to the story :) sad way to end all those years at the White Swan though.
I knew Thomas and Gwenllian weren't buried at Glyntaff so Llanfabon was a possibility (quite a few Cil residents were buried there apparently) but thought Gwenllian had died before leaving Llanfrynach and hadn't checked Llanfabon again. The ages are good so i'll look for the deaths. That's a real help thanks (will wait til next month to get the death certs as I've already bought a few this month ::) )
Off to work now, thanks again.
Deirdre
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;D staying up late is one of the joys of having a couple of weeks off work - lovely !
Yes, I forgot he was identified as a bachelor on his marriage certificate.
I was looking at the 1851 census transcription for the White Swan, and noticed Mary Davies (as mother in law) aged 90 - retired business - born Llanhamlach. Have you tracked Mary (wife of Thomas the older) back yet?
Mar
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Marriage Licences are at the NLW. From checking the indexes Thomas was an inn keeper & widower of Llanfrynach & Mary a spinster of the same parish, licence dated 13 October ref A.58/71.
You can get a copy by post
https://www.llgc.org.uk/services/enquiries/nlwenquiries/
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Marriage Licences are at the NLW. From checking the indexes Thomas was an inn keeper & widower of Llanfrynach & Mary a spinster of the same parish, licence dated 13 October ref A.58/71.
You can get a copy by post
https://www.llgc.org.uk/services/enquiries/nlwenquiries/
Osprey, that's fantastic, thanks :) but that says Thomas was a widower, yet he was a bachelor on the marriage ??? Will order it on Monday......
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;D staying up late is one of the joys of having a couple of weeks off work - lovely !
Have you tracked Mary (wife of Thomas the older) back yet?
Mar
Hi Mar, couldn't find a baptism in Llanhamlach for Mary so have come to a halt, shame as we know her mother was Mary and father Thomas; no baptism so far for Thomas (senior) in Llanfrynach either :(
Not had the certs from Powys yet.
Hope you enjoy your time off work :)
Deirdre
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the licence itself may not give much more info. I've got one for a marriage in Cornwall in the 1790s. There's a signature of a relative of the bride, may be her father, could be her brother as they had the same name. No further info for the groom which is what I needed.
:-\
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I was wondering why a licence (difference in age, the fact that he was a parish clerk :-\), but hoping it 'might' give a clue as to whether he is the Thomas Davies aged 65 at the White Swan inn in 1841 and the Thomas Davies buried in Llanfrynach in 1843 (aged 69), and if he is the father or grandfather of Thomas Davies born in 1837.
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sorry, off hunting for an image to show what you get
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01frr/
Just seen your reply, not wanting to wait for the banns to be read, licence was faster, or possibly not wanting other people to know & possibly gossip about their marriage. Don't think parish clerk would have anything to do with it. I have a couple of parish clerks in my lines, one married 3 times (from memory, may have been 4), his first marriage was by licence, when he wasn't a parish clerk, but there was just about 9 months between the marriage & the baptism of their first child.
::)
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Thanks Osprey, very useful. But as you say, may not prove - or disprove - anything. The marriage was on 24 October 1834 and their daughter Mary was baptised on 27 Sep 1835 which looks ok, unless she was 3 months old when she was baptised...
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Hi Deirdre,
if Thomas does turn out to be a widow rather than a bachelor, there is a possible marriage in Llanfrynach in 1796. It caught my eye because this Thomas is a smith (presume blacksmith). I cant see the marriage cert though, but the banns read as follows:
banns of marriage between Thomas Davies of this parish, Smith and Margaret Thomas of the same parish, spinster.
There is a burial record of a Margaret Davies in Llanfrynach in August 1834 aged 64. I cant see another one between this date and 1813 (on FindMyPast).
Mar :)
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Haven't been online much today Mar, but that looks good doesn't it :) thanks.
He didn't hang around though before marrying Mary ::); and how could he claim to be a bachelor only 2 months later ::). Also unlikely that he had young children from that marriage to necessitate a quick re-marriage, and they weren't with him in 1841.
The early marriage also suggests he was from Llanfrynach but there's no baptism...
Edited to add: the Llanfrynach marriages only start from 1813 on FindMyPast :) Lovely handwriting on some of the banns; annoyingly the banns don't mention if he was a bachelor, but great to see his occupation.
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Looks like Mary Davies (mother of Mary Davies on 1851 census) dies in May 1851 aged 90 residing in Llanfrynach and is buried in Llanhamlach (which she gives as place of birth on census)
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Thanks Mar :),
Looks like her husband was buried at Llanhamlach too, 16 May 1822, aged 62, a labourer of Llechfane - Llechfane was daughter Mary's residence in your reply number 5, so all fitting together nicely.
Deirdre
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Looks like I'll need to visit Powys archives to go any further back; they have earlier registers of baptisms, from 1776 (which sadly might just exclude the older Thomas, born in 1774 if you use his age at death, but should find any children born to him and first wife Margaret) and marriages, from 1754, than have been put onto FindMyPast :)
I'll put a new lookup request on here though just in case anyone is visiting the archives soon :)
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Had the 2 certificates this morning :)
The Thomas 1837 birth is fine, as expected son of Thomas, publican and blacksmith, and Mary nee Davies, White Swan, Llanfrynach.
The 1843 death certificate is OK, but sadly doesn't prove whether he is the father or grandfather of 1837 Thomas. Thomas died at the White Swan, and was an agricultural - smith. The informant was Mary Davies, INMATE, White Swan, which sounds strange. Why (or how) an inmate at the pub and could an inmate register a death? I've emailed the registrar's office to check the informant info.
Marriage licence ordered from NLW :)
Planning a day out to Llanfrynach next week which will be very interesting.
Deirdre
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Hi Deirdre
half good news and half more questions on the certificates ;D
Spoke to my friend a couple of nights ago about the graveyard in Llanfrynach, and she said that very many of the 'old graves' were cleared from an area of the cemetery some years ago and have all been propped against the perimeter of the wall in the churchyard. This poses a problem this time of year, as the stingies and other weeds make it very difficult to get to them to read the stones. You would have to go fully covered and prepared to push your way through.
Mind you, it is directly opposite the White Swan - bonus !
Mar
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The informant was Mary Davies, INMATE, White Swan, which sounds strange. Why (or how) an inmate at the pub and could an inmate register a death? I've emailed the registrar's office to check the informant info.
A possibility it was Mary Davies' mother? She was on the census living at the White Swan in 1851, so could have been there in 1843?
Have a look at this link Deirdre, it talks (under the heading informants details) about an inmate being someone residing at the house or institution who knew of the event.
http://www.thosedixons.net/certificates/deaths.html
and a previous Rootschat topic
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=301692.0
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....it talks (under the heading informants details) about an inmate being someone residing at the house or institution who knew of the event.
And there I was thinking that an inmate had to be in the workhouse or prison :-[
A possibility it was Mary Davies' mother? She was on the census living at the White Swan in 1851, so could have been there in 1843?
Could be, especially as Mary would have had 3 young children :-\ Cause of death was 'general decay' so maybe Mary senior had moved in to help her daughter (though if he was the father of the three children that was a quick decline as the youngest was only around 18 months old).
Should I be worried that he is not described as 'publican' on his death cert as is the father of 1837 Thomas?
I guess the death cert doesn't prove anything either way but we are still left with no other death / burial if he's not the younger Mary's husband. Maybe the licence will give us another clue (or maybe not ;D).
Thanks for the 'heads up' on the graveyard. We were planning to have a look / photo the church but have found only 3 family headstones so far (all on my side) so are not holding our breath!
Deirdre
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Marriage Licences are at the NLW. From checking the indexes Thomas was an inn keeper & widower of Llanfrynach & Mary a spinster of the same parish, licence dated 13 October ref A.58/71.
You can get a copy by post
https://www.llgc.org.uk/services/enquiries/nlwenquiries/
Hi Osprey, thanks so much for this link. Copy of the licence on its way, for £1.25 :)
Do you know if the NLW will copy entries from parish records too? Llanfrynach marriages on FindMyPast start later than the possible first marriage of Thomas in 1796. Although they are in Powys archives it appears that they at the NLW too and as the banns were read on 17 and 24 April and 1 May the marriage should be easy to find.
Thanks,
Deirdre
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;D I've just found his record in the probate calendar ;D
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effects under £200.....letters of administration (with the Will annexed) of the Personal estate and effects of Thomas Davies late of the "White Swan" in the village of Llanfrynach in the county of Brecon blacksmith deceased who died 2 September 1843 at the "White Swan" aforesaid were granted at Hereford to Thomas Davies of the "White Swan" Inn in the Village aforesaid Blacksmith and Licenced Victualler the Husband and Administrator of the Personal estate and effects of Mary Davies (formerly Davies, Widow) the Relict one of the Executors and the Universal Legatee named in the said Will he having been first sworn.
Typed as published ;D and a bit more complicated than I've seen before, but it looks to confirm that he was the husband of Mary and the father of Thomas.
Hadn't thought to look for a will before but Ancestry offered me the hint as soon as I entered his date of death ::).
EDITED TO ADD: Just realised that this was dated 29 April 1865, yet Mary died in 1851 and Thomas married Margaret in 1854 ???
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NLW does do copies of parish entries as well, using the same form. I think you need to put exact date of event & name of parish as well, otherwise it may be considered research which they don't normally do.
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;D ;D
Are you able to read the will Deirdre ?
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Thanks Osprey, having found the will I may go for that instead, the copy of the marriage may not give any more info than the banns.
Hi Mar, the probate entry is no 41 above, but I've applied for the will - but am now confused about the dates - see the edit on post 41.
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I've just found another probate entry, for Mary's 2nd husband Thomas.... 9 Feb 1886 at Hereford.
Personal estate £1,240 9s 4d :o
The Will of Thomas Davies late of Llanfrynach in the county of Brecon Yeoman who died 23 Jan 1886 at Llanfrynach was proved at Hereford by William Davies of the "White Swan" Inn Llanfrynach Innkeeper and Blacksmith the Son one of the Executors.
:o Edited to add: an online calculator reckons that is more than £100,000 today
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Can you find Marys?
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Can you find Marys?
No, but if Thomas's probate wasn't granted until after her death maybe she didn't have one ???
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Hi Deirdre, so unpicking the text - do you read it as...
effects under £200.....letters of administration (with the Will annexed) of the Personal estate and effects of Thomas Davies late of the "White Swan" in the village of Llanfrynach in the county of Brecon blacksmith deceased who died 2 September 1843 at the "White Swan" aforesaid were granted at Hereford to Thomas Davies (2nd husband of Mary) of the "White Swan" Inn in the Village aforesaid Blacksmith and Licenced Victualler the Husband and Administrator of the Personal estate and effects of Mary Davies (so 2nd husband Thomas is the administrator of Marys estate) (formerly Davies, Widow) the Relict (of old Thomas) one of the Executors and the Universal Legatee named in the said Will (of old Thomas) he having been first sworn.
I don't understand the time lapse though - maybe the will will give you more :-\
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Basically yes though I hadn't realised it was saying he was the administrator of Mary's estate and effects...
Probably didn't read it as closely as I should have in the excitement of thinking that we had cracked the mystery of the older Thomas - but then noticed the date. Seems very strange to me.
Will ordered; will update when it arrives! Maybe there will be a headstone after all ::)
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Having fun with the wills! Just found William's, son of Mary and the 2nd Thomas (he who left more than £1200 in 1886).
His effects amounted to just £192 19s when he died in 1893, administration granted to Ann his wife. Further grant the following year to William Thomas Davies (eldest son, mother had now died as well) a market gardener of £244 17s 2d.
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Just received Thomas' will ;D
It seems the delay was caused by Mary and another executor (Rev Charles Williams, clerk) dying before taking probate ::); letters of administration granted to Thomas Davies (Mary's 2nd husband) on 29 April 1865.
Anyway, the will says '..... I give and bequeath to my beloved wife Mary Davies ten cottages in the village of Llanfrynach - listed with rent of between £3 and £4 a year.... I also give my beloved wife all my household furniture brewing utensils in short all my personal estate in money goods and chattels and every other thing that I am possessed of at the time of my decease likewise all my livestock consisting of two cows and a mare three pigs....' Bit hard to read without any punctuation, but fascinating! TEN cottages :o
Probably need to buy Mary's 2nd husband's will now (1886) to see what happened afterwards, though I've just realised that this one doesn't mention the White Swan, but we know that Mary and Thomas and family are subsequent landlords. Wonder what happened to all his money (£1240) if his son William left less than £200 in 1893 and his step son, the Thomas born in 1837, was in debt and had to leave the White Swan in 1902/3.
Deirdre
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Hi Deirdre
that is great news, but as always it leads to another question of how he got ownership of all this property, purchased or family inheritance (all adds to the intrigue) ;D
Ten cottages in Llanfrynach - that must be half the village !
I've had a look at the 1840 tithe map and there are hardly more than 25 properties shown in the village centre.
http://cynefin.archiveswales.org.uk/en/tithe-maps/georeference/#Llanfrynach&/transcribe/805681566773/&/georeference/780637847144/&/visualize/780637847144&&/map/235569113733/
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Deirdre, have you seen these three links in Google books (search with text below in books), only snippet views so cant read it all I'm afraid
THE plaintiff, Thomas Davies the younger, was heir-at-law of his mother Mary Davies. She died intestate on the 19th Aug. 1851 ... in the county of Brecon. Upon the death of Mary Davies, her husband, Thomas Davies the elder, became entitled ...
The plaintiff claimed as heir-at-law of Mary Davies, who died intestate in August, 1851, seized in fee of the property which was the subject of the lease in question, and which consisted of an inn and a blacksmith's shop at Llanfrynach, Brecon. Upon the death of Mary Davies, her husband, Thomas Davies, became entitled to the property during his life as tenant by the curtesy, and by the lease, which ...
Thomas Davies was tenant by the curtesy in right of his deceased wife, Mary Davies, of the White Swan Inn at Llanfrynach, and on the 28th of October, 1885, granted, in exercise of the power conferred upon him by the Settled Estates Act, 1877 ..
Mar
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Hi Mar, that's amazing and the plot thickens!
Having spent the day at the library trawling through newspapers from WW1 (without finding what we were looking for :( ) we went out for a meal tonight and I did say to my husband that I wondered if Mary knew about the will / cottages and how it was that her 2nd husband inherited the lot (presumably, though I appreciate that he took on her children).
Just got in so am going to look at the link you sent for the tithe maps (not seen any before) and the 1841 census and see if I can map up the cottages.
Still waiting for the licence from the nlw, though I'm not sure if it will add anything (may well throw another spanner in the works!).
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Should have said earlier, the will was dated 28 Jan 1835, only 3 months after their wedding :)
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Hi again Mar, I can't understand the tithe map :( maybe I'm too tired after looking at a computer screen all day :-\ )
Those links to the Law Society reports are incredible; have tried searching for the whole thing but no luck so far. Would hopefully explain a few things!
Thanks again, Deirdre
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Hi Deirdre
unfortunately you wont glean much from the tithe map for Llanfrynach as it only puts names on the bigger houses, unlike some of the maps for other parts of Brecon where I have found the names of my relatives against properties. The Llanfrynach one doesn't even name the pub !
I had fantastic success with Merthyr Cynog :) for my own family
The associated apportionment pages lists (you have to click transcribe) who owns land/fields (but not property it seems) so I went through each page and there isn't a Thomas or Mary Davies against anything.
Pity :( .. are all the properties listed in the will in Llanfrynach?
The Law Society stuff seems to show this was a landmark case, given it is cited as Davies v Davies. Think this would have affected the relationship between Thomas and his stepfather, and possibly other siblings?
mar
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Morning Mar!
I was going to have another look at the tithe map this morning but maybe it's not worth it. Thanks for the explanation. Thomas's will lists the names of the tenants not the properties; a few of the names are on the 1841 census but listed as 'village' so I'm none the wiser.
I'm going to post on here to see if anyone can suggest where I could see a copy of the law society journal, hopefully a library somewhere. As you say it must have strained relationships, but then Thomas was landlord in 1901. I wonder if his FIL's will would help; can't understand why he became a farmer in 1881 after years as landlord and blacksmith.
Confusing scenario but very interesting, and much down to your 'finds'. Most of our family on both sides have census entries and BMD certs and that's it! ;D
Great you've had some success with tithe maps. How far back have you got on your tree?
Deirdre
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the second husband will have inherited because at that time any property belonging to a woman became her husband's property on marriage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act_1870
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Thanks Osprey, that's fascinating :) And my something new learned today!
I'm even more interested now to see the full transcript of the court case ;D
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Hi Deirdre, it might be worth seeing if the same tenants names are in Llanfrynach in 1851. Could be a fair chance given the rurality of the community?
Ospreys knowledge about the 1870 married womens propery act is extremely interesting as it was repealed in 1882 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act_1882
My family.. got back to 1727 Good old online parish records !!!!!
Mar
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Hi Mar, unfortunately the ten names aren't very distinctive, but of them, two (Joshua Price and Joshua Jones) don't appear in either 1841 or '51. The only William Watkins is aged 5 and 15 (the WW in the will is listed as a road surveyor, the only one with an occupation listed), and the oldest John Jones is aged 20 and 30 - but would only have been 14 when the will was written.
Looking at the rest, they all seem to be about the same age, born late 1700s to 1801. There's a Roger Powell (1796) in '41 but not in '51, and two William Bevans (1786 and 1801) in '41 but neither in '51. There are two David Williamses in '41 (1791 and 1796) but only the 1796 is still there in '51. There are several John Williamses in both '41 and '51 :(. There is no William Butler in '41 but there is in '51 (1796) ??? The only one which seems certain is Meredith Williams (1796 in '41 and 1797 in '51). A lab, living in 'cottage' :). I don't think this really helps, does it?!
Hope to have the marriage licence (Thomas Davies and Mary Davies) in a few days, have asked on here and emailed the Law Society re the Davies v Davies court transcript, and have emailed Powys re their old Llanfrynach records - not on FindMyPast - for Thomas' 1st marriage to Margaret Thomas, his baptism (though possibly before Llanfrynach records began), and any children born to Thomas and Margaret before FindMyPast records begin in 1813 ;D
Mary was around at the wrong time to own property wasn't she ::)
Some areas have fantastic parish records don't they (many online too!). Did yours stay in the same area, or move around?
Deirdre
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Hi Deirdre
no relation, but to add to the overall picture; Roger Powell (one of the tenants) is the son of Howell Powell, and sibling of William, Mary, and Ann.
The will of Howell Powell is on the NLW's website. http://hdl.handle.net/10107/310095.
Mar ;D
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Thanks Mar, fascinating things you find. I can't find any wills on the NLW website (just been looking for one on my side down in Pembrokeshire :().
We've been to Llanfrynach today :) ; lovely sunny day, had gorgeous lunch at the White Swan (outside on the terrace), and a wander around. Gave up trying to look for any graves because, as you warned, the 'old' graves around the walls were under about 4 feet of weeds etc, and just about impenetrable. Will no doubt visit again.
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Hi Deirdre :)
so glad you managed to get to Llanfrynach and a meal in your ancestors Inn.
It is such a pretty place, and you made the best of the weather too!
I expect the graves will have to be an Autumn or winter visit?
Will wait for the update on the marriage licence for Thomas and Mary, let's hope it gives some more clues
Some areas have fantastic parish records don't they (many online too!). Did yours stay in the same area, or move around?
Yes, they tended to stay around Brecon, but many moved down into the valleys to work in the pits, as was commonplace in the late 19thC.
Mar
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It was one of the best meals we've had in ages :). The whole area was quiet and relaxing; a lovely day out. I did ask the waitress if she knew anything about the history of the inn itself but sadly she didn't, and the manager wasn't on duty.
The licence seems to be taking ages :(; paid for by card on 30 July. Hopefully it will arrive this week.
I've ordered the 2nd Thomas Davies's will now (Mary's 2nd husband); will be interesting to see what it says and hopefully it may explain a bit more. Mary didn't leave a will but Thomas was granted letters of administration on 12 April 1865 (nearly 14 years after she died and 2 weeks before he was granted probate on her first husband's estate ::)).
I've found a few more bits from the google books, but nothing really new. Hope to ring the Law Society tomorrow to see if they can help with the whole transcript.
As with your family, my husband's ancestors moved down from Brecon (and Merthyr) to the valleys, many of them to Cilfynydd, and the pits. Thomas (1837)'s son was a blacksmith / shoer in the pit, and his son a coal hewer.
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Still no licence from the nlw - getting impatient now!!!!
But I've found the full report of Davies v Davies :) nothing exciting to solve any mysteries unfortunately, and I need to Google some terms to more fully understand what it was about ;D
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Licence finally received, but sadly it doesn't solve anything ::)
Just what appears to be a basic licence saying that Thomas Davies appeared in person, and made oath that he is a 'widower' (so presumably the parish register is wrong ???) and that he and Mary, both of Llanfrynach, are over 21 and free to marry. No other names, or occupation etc. Looks like the same signature of Thos Davies from the parish registers.
Also had some info from Powys archives, though again doesn't really get me far. Only the info so far, images to follow now that I've paid :).
No baptism for Thomas, though if his age was right at his burial, he was born 2 years before the baptism registers began, though Powys tell me that there may be BTs at the NLW.
Marriage record of Thomas Davies and Margaret Thomas, on 13 May 1796, both of the parish, by banns. Witnesses: Owen William and Elizabeth Davies (this could be interesting if Owen William is Owen William Davies, will wait and see).
Only 1 child it seems.... another Mary, baptised on 4 June 1797, daughter of Thomas and Margaret, but sadly she was buried on 7 May 1798.
Had the will of Thomas Davies too, leaving nearly everything to son William, with quarterly payments of £20 to his widow, and £100 each to his son and daughter. He had a life assurance policy and money in the bank ::). He gave the '...dwelling house, garden and premises situated at Llanfrynach in the occupation of Elizabeth Evans, widow ???' to son William, and furniture, plates, linens, china and all other household effects to wife Margaret.
Three strange things..... no mention of the White Swan ???, Thomas and Margaret appear to be living at Trallong in 1881 (and Margaret died there in 1901), yet the will says he died in Llanfrynach ???, and there were 2 executors named, son William and Howel Davies of Pannan, but Howel 'renounced the probate and execution thereof' ::)
Edited to add: just realised that there must have been another property (ie the farm at Trallong) otherwise where was Margaret going to live if this Elizabeth Evans was in the property? When William died in 1893 and his wife in 1894, they were resident at the 'Brickhouse'.
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I've been in touch with the NLW and have had a reply re baptisms for Thomas Davies before 1776 (when Powys records start). There were two ::)
23 February 1774 Thomas the son of Rees David (sp?) and Mary
1 January 1775 Thomas son of David Davies and Elizabeth.
In the parish register for the marriage there was only one:
23 November 1764 marriage of Rees Davies to Mary Williams.
Given that Thomas had a daughter Mary (1797-1798) by his first wife and two by his 2nd wife (1835-1838 and 1838-?) the Rees - Mary marriage looks a good bet. There are also possible burials for them in Llanfrynach (abode village) in 1821 (Rees, b around 1735) and Mary (in 1825, b around 1731, aged 94!) but nothing for David and Elizabeth.
There are also other burials for Davies children born around the same time as Thomas, inc a Rees (1780-1853). Maybe there was an earlier Rees too if they'd been married since 1764.
Not sure what else I can do to confirm Thomas' parents (if Rees was a blacksmith it would have helped ;D) so this may well be the end of the line, unless anyone has any other ideas.
Deirdre
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Hi Deirdre
fantastic that you've had some record detail back from NLW ;D
I can see the marriage bann online in FindMyPast for Rees Davies and Mary Williams (both of Llanfrynach parish), and burials in 1821 and 1825 at ripe old ages in Llanfrynach.
So definitely in the play for being Thomas' parents.
I had a look at NLW wills online, and even though you cant see a burial for David and Elizabeth Davies (parents of 1775 Thomas), maybe this David's will (I hope as wife is Elizabeth) dated 18th July 1789 says that he is of Llanfrynach - so not sure where he is buried? http://hdl.handle.net/10107/49609
Sadly no mention of being a blacksmith in this will :( - think he was a yeoman farmer leaving goods to the value of £11.
Tantalizingly, Davies' as blacksmiths get everywhere - there was a David Davies blacksmith buried on 17 June 1789 in Llanfihangel Talyllyn (3.5 miles away) !!
Mar :)
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Hi Mar (lovely bank holiday weekend weather as usual!).
I have no luck with wills so i don't suppose you can find one for Rees can you? Looks like David - and maybe Elizabeth - died before the Llanfrynach burials start on FindMyPast so parents could be either :-\
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Can't see anything yet for Rees, but will keep nosing !
Useful link while I was browsing to Breconshire MIs http://www.powysfhs.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Breconshire_Master_MI_Index.pdf
The sky now seems undecided here...looks brighter down the valley but not looking north, so more rain again I expect
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Thanks Mar, love the link, found several of the Davies clan (though not 'my' 1837 Thomas or Mary 1851). Mary's 2nd husband Thomas and his wife Margaret, plus some of their children are there, and the Rees and Mary - and all in the same area if the 'Ref' is anything to go on :-\
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Didn't think about the ref. If it relates to burial plot, does that mean the same number means the same plot and all related??
18 - Howell Davies bur 1927; Mary Davies bur 1933; William Davies bur 1924;
41 – Sarah Ann Davies 1945;
49 – William T Davies 1902; Winifred Davies 1901;
51 – John Davies 1864; Sarah Davies 1902; Sarah M Davies 1896; William Davies 1895; William Davies 1906;
59 – John Davies 1928;
60 - Gwenllian Davies 1933; John Davies 1906;
79 - Eliza Davies 1937; Ethel Davies 1936; Gertrude Davies 1952; William Davies 1912;
80 – John Davies 1928; Thomas Davies 1896;
81 - Anne Davies 1883; David Davies 1881; Mary Davies 1864; Mary Anne Davies 1942
83 - Annie Davies 1934; Benjamin Davies 1956;
86 - Enoch Davies 1927; Mary Jane Davies 1950;
100 - Gwenllian Davies 1909; John Davies 1891;
101 - John Davies no date; William Davies 1903;
143 - Dilys Davies no date; Penry Davies no date; Stephen Davies no date; Susan Davies 1980
238 - Anne Davies 1849; Anne Davies 1855; John Davies no date;
239 -infant Davies no date; Howell Davies 1892; Mary Davies 1872
240 - Mary Anne Davies 1885; Mary Davies 1858; Edward Davies 1879; infant Davies no date
274 - Rees Davies 1821; Mary Davies 1825;
276 – Margaret Davies 1901; Thomas Davies 1889;
277 -child Davies 1857; Ann Davies no date; Charles R Davies 1877; David W Davies 1857; Margaret Davies no date; Rees P Davies 1862; William Davies no date.
285 - Anne Davies 1916; Sarah Davies 1881; Thomas Davies 1870;
286 – Thomas Davies 1870;
289 -Elizabeth Davies 1824; H Davies no date;
293 - Jane Davies 1850; John Davies 1811; John Davies 1854;
294 - John Davies 1788;
295 – William Davies 1893; Ann Davies 1894
304 – Rees Davies 1847; Thomas Davies 1846; William Davies 1846;
311 - Gwenllian Davies no date; Rees Davies no date; William Davies 1827; William Davies 1825;
313 - John Davies 1837;
315 – Sarah Davies 1865; Thomas Davies no date;
318 - Emma Davies 1891; Thomas Davies no date;
329 - Ann Davies 1840; Jennet Davies 1814; William Davies 1803
336 - John Davies no date; Gwenllian Davies no date; Kate Davies 1890;
339 - David Davies 1890; Sarah Ann Davies 1891;
342 - Edward Davies 1885;
376 – Stanley Davies no date;
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How did you do that Mar??
It was the 274, 276 and 277 i spotted.... 274 is Rees and Mary, possible parents of Thomas b1774, 276 is Margaret, the 2nd wife of the other Thomas (who had all the money!) and Thomas, though he died in 1886 not '89, and 277 is his son William, wife Ann and a couple of their children (not sure about Margaret, Ann or 'child').
If the ref has any bearing on the plot is it just coincidence that Rees and Mary are alongside the others - or can they be related? But where are Thomas 1774 - parish clerk for all those years and owner of 10 houses - and his wife Mary ???
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My eyes went a bit crossed... I used 'find' for Llanfrynach and listed them by number, but if the reference is grave, there seemed to be quite a lot in some graves and I always thought there was a limit on how many could go in?
You are right as the MIs do not reflect the ones we know are there, suspect this list isn't complete. ;D
Mar
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My eyes went a bit crossed... I used 'find' for Llanfrynach and listed them by number...
And then typed them up??? I thought you must know a magic way to extract them from the pdf!! Thanks for all your efforts.
Strange for the possible graves to be so close though.... I guess my Thomas and Mary could be in 275 :D
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Wonder if there's a plot map somewhere, though as you mentioned before, a lot of the older headstones are propped up along the outer walls so may have moved anyway :-\
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PS i thought there was a limit too though i have one plot in Cathays cemetery in Cardiff with 5 known burials.
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think it would depend how deep the grave was to start with which would depend on how many it was bought for. I've transcribed burial records for a parish in Cornwall where the depth & size of the grave was also noted. Some of them were 10 feet deep, some 8, some 5 (from memory), some single, some double. But not one mentioned six feet deep!
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10 feet deep! Gosh, wouldn't have wanted to dig that! Hadn't thought about doubles... thanks Osprey.
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the register didn't have any detail of how the gravediggers got back out again....
::)
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Being only just 5 feet tall I'd have had trouble getting out of any of them! ;D
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Someone will have been doing a good business in strong rope or long ladders :D :D
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:D :D
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Been having a think (can hear cogs whirring) about the parents of Thomas circa 1774, and haven't found any more info :( on either possible parents but unpicking the info we have, I think both Rees and Mary and David and Elizabeth could be in play?
Re - the one christened on 23 February 1774, Thomas the son of Rees David (sp?) and Mary. I can see your thought process about naming of daughter (Mary) after his mother (3 times). Also both buried in Llanfrynach church ground.
Re - the one christened on 1 January 1775, Thomas son of David Davies and Elizabeth. Thomas' marriage to first wife Margaret Thomas in 1796 is witnessed by an Elizabeth Davies - possibly his mother if child of David and Elizabeth. Didn't Thomas name his son David - could this be in reference to a father called David?. No burial in Llanfrynach for David and Elizabeth Davies, but a will on NLW lists a David (formerly of Llanfrynach, with a wife named Elizabeth) dying in 1789.
:)
Mar
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Hi Mar, thanks for carrying on 'thinking' about this :) It's great to have input.
I have to admit that I'd come to the same conclusion (that it could be either), though I wish I could find out more about the burials (strange for Rees and Mary to be - apparently - close to 'not quite' relatives, unless Thomas and Mary are actually there too but not on that list).
Yes Thomas did have a son called David, born 1842, so after his first son, Thomas born 1837.
Better have a look at buying that will.....
Thanks again, Deirdre
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Hi Deirdre :)
When you had the details of the marriage record between Thomas Davies and Margaret Thomas (1796), did you get a copy of the original record including signatures of the witnesses (particularly Elizabeth Davies) ?
Mar
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Hi Mar, signed by mark I'm afraid (only Thomas signed).
Does this mean you have found something with 'Elizabeth's' signature? 😄
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http://hdl.handle.net/10107/49609
Hi Deirdre on the will of David Davies 1789 there is a signature of his wife Elizabeth Davies who is his widow.
Just thought that if there had been a signature on the first marriage certificate we could look to see if they matched.
So, I suppose this doesn't rule out a David and Elizabeth being his parents, but does show that whoever the Elizabeth Davies was who witnessed his marriage was illiterate.
Mar
p.s. on a tablet working...nightmare....laptop may have to go to the great laptop land in the sky !!
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Gosh thanks for that link Mar, esp from working on a tablet (not ideal :)). Shame about your laptop.
Strange re Elizabeth Davies though. The signature is quite neat, not a troubled hand if you like. If the Elizabeth on the marriage certificate is maybe Thomas' sister you'd think she could sign her name like he can. No mention of any 'smith' goods in the will unfortunately either. Wonder where David and Elizabeth are buried, as the will refers to him being from Llanfrynach :-\
More puzzles ::)
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I suppose the witness Elizabeth Davies could have been a friend of Margaret Thomas also?
I did wonder about her being a sister to Thomas, but dont know anything about education systems at that time and if there would have been preferential treatment to educate boys. So would we expect all children in a family to be able to write in the late 1700s if one could.
But like Thomas, the Elizabeth Davies whose signature is in the will looks like that of someone who writes easily-unless just practised at signing her name !
more and more questions.........?
Mar
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Forgot to say ;D
the will says 'formerly of Llanfrynach'
Does this mean before he died or that he was living somewhere else ?
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Morning Mar, i don't know anything about education at that time either but somehow think that if mum Elizabeth could write that her daughter would have been able to too. As you say, maybe just a coincidence and the witness Elizabeth was a friend (the other witness wasn't a Davies or Thomas so could have been a friend of Thomas).
I assumed 'formerly of Llanfrynach' meant before he died rather than he'd moved elsewhere. I can't see a reason for mentioning it otherwise, not like he was 'Lord Mayor of' or something. Might explain why he's not buried there though?
Considering the family is Davies I'm surprised to have got back this far really, it's just that every bit of info solves one question but invites others ::)
Have a lovely day; seems like we're having a last bit of summer, though the evenings are getting cool.
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Hi Deirdre
I've had a look at the wording in some other bonds, and where the words 'formally of' have been used it means that the person is living elsewhere but the original/previous place of residence is specifically identified. In the ones seen, the new place of residence is also cited but that doesn't seem to be the case in the bond for David Davies (bond of 1789).
For some reason I cant reopen the bond for David Davies at NLW, but if I remember correctly the word formerly was clearly inserted in the sentence. The date on the bond would have related to after David Davies death, but would have been organised fairly soon after his death (according to online explanations of a bond) by his wife. So looking at deaths for all David Davies in Breconshire in the first few months of 1789 and 1788 - there are four.
Llangattock
Llanwrtyd
Hay
Llanfihangel Talylyn - this one was a blacksmith
Now you may remember that I commented a couple of posts back that there were other blacksmiths called Davies buried in the near vicinity - could the David Davies buried in Llanfihangel Talylyn be the same person whose bond identifies him as 'formally of Llanfrynach' ........possible especially if bond is later than the date of his burial/death in June (could you look at the date on it again please)
Or I am adding two and two and making five ;D
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Hi Mar, you are so good to keep digging for me (and are managing better than I am :-[ ).
I've had another look at the bond (it did open eventually) and it says 'late of' rather than formerly so does that just mean that he'd died? Late has been inserted. Had saved a snippet but can't attach it.
The bond is dated 18 July 1789. Had we (you) found a burial in June?
Deirdre
PS How's the laptop?
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Hi Deirdre
looks like we are getting a last blast of summer sun today :)
I looked at some more bonds with 'late of' and it does seem to relate to where they lived at the time of their death, so does seem that the 1789 David Davies bond was him living in Llanfrynach with his wife Elizabeth before death.
The Llanfihangel Talyllyn burial is 17th June and reads "David Davies Blacksmith was buried", so someone could possibly be buried in a neighbouring parish, but the Llanfrynach parish records on FindMyPast for burials dont go back as far as we need to make an analysis.
Also there is no age at death for the one above... do you think this will be a deadend (no pun intended) ;D
mar
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Morning Mar, yes bright and sunny (though cool) here today.
Literally logged on 2 mins ago and your post popped up! Thanks again.
Looks like it maybe another request to the NLW for Llanfrynach (burials) - better buy the copies of the 1 baptism and 2 marriages found a few weeks ago ::) - but otherwise a dead end I think.
Enjoy the weekend,
Deirdre