RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Oxfordshire => Topic started by: Kells on Monday 20 July 15 12:26 BST (UK)
-
Hello,
I have posted previously about the Kirtland family and now I would like to further investigate a branch of this tree, which is Martha Honour the wife of John Kirtland, who married in Charlton on Otmoor in 1773.
I have found a will for John Hale of Oddington in which he names Martha Honour, and others, as grandchildren and beneficiaries in his will (1758). He only names one daughter, Mary Honour, wife of Robert. I am assuming all of the grandchildren of the surname Honour are the children of daughter Mary (Robert, Thomas, John, Marlin, Elizabeth, Mary, Ann, Martha and Gabriel), but there is also a grandchild named Mary Jesset.
I think this places Martha in the family of Robert Honour who married Mary Hale in 1733. I believe Robert to be a son of Robert and Margaret Honner of Wendlebury, who had lands in Oddington.
As I am working only with transcribed wills and the scant information on Family Search I am not having much luck. I can find no baptism for Martha. Is anyone able to help? I'd very much appreciate it.
Thanks.
-
Hi
Well this is going to be a puzzle to unpick for sure.
I assume you do not have access to the St Marys Church, Charlton on Otmoor PR's?
In those that have been transcribed by Oxfordshire Family History Society and put on CD - OXF-BIC01 there are many Honour/ Honor for you to find. I strongly recommend you consider purchasing this CD as to find the info you want and I can see a lot of it but it takes some unpicking!!!
Robert Honour married after banns to Mary HALE both of Charlton on 25 Aug 1733
Robert Honour bapt 27 Sept 1733 s o Robert and Mary
Mary Jessett bapt 6 March 1731/2 d o John & Elizabeth of Charlton
John Jessett of Charlton married after banns to Elisabeth PHILLIPS of Fencot. Married in Queens College Chapel, Oxford
Martha Honour otp marr John KIRTLAND of Marsh Gibbon Co, Bucks after banns on 5 July 1773. Wits: Daniel Horns & Edmd Rice
Marling Honor spin marr Joseph HIGGS botp by license on 3 June 1819. Wits: John Kirtland & Sarah Williams
Have a look at the above and think about what it means and what you want looked up next then let me know.
Hope it helps
NDRFT
-
Hello,
Thank you for your reply. I do not have access to the PR's (I'm in Australia) so maybe it would be worth ordering a CD. Ideally I'd like to find a baptism for Martha so I can confirm her ties to the Honour/Honner families in Charlton on Otmoor. I suspect she is a daughter of Robert Honour and Mary nee Hale but without the baptism I can't really piece together her ancestry. My clue was the Hale will that named Martha Honour, the only mention I have found of the name anywhere before the marriage of Martha to John Kirtland.
If you happen upon a baptism for her, or any other children of Robert and Mary, that would be really helpful. If there are too many to sort through I will happily take your recommendation of acquiring the CD!
Many thanks,
Kelly.
-
Hi Kelly
I have had a really good look for a baptism of Martha and between 1730 and 1770 there 9 baptisms where the name Martha was used. Sadly none of the family names were relevant. However within the 9 there is one possibility which you may discard but......
On 13 Jan 1734 at St Marys Chruch a girl was baptised Martha d o a beggar woman - no last name entered for mother nor child, no father entered but......
look at the dates and I just wonder if Robert or another family member had a 'thing' with this lady and a child came along - which after baptism, he later adopted as his and Mary's, they kept the first name . gave her their family name and then she later married in 1773.
If thats not her then I dont know?????
Nigel
-
Robert and Mary are in the PR's of St Marys having the following children baptised:
Robert 27 Sept 1733
Thomas 9 March 1735
Merlin (d o) 16 Jan 1737
Elizabeth 14 Jan 1739
John 27 Feb 1743 (private baptism)
Mary 28 Dec 1745
Ann 5 May 1748 - mothers name not entered
Hope these help as well.
Nigel
-
Hi Nigel,
Thank you very much, it helps a lot even though no Martha ???
The names of the children of Robert and Mary align with the known grandchildren of John Hale, with the exception of there being no Martha, Gabriel or John, which I had expected to also be children of theirs. Martha's husband John Kirtland was born in 1748 so I would put her birth likely somewhere between then and the early 1750s. I guess I will have to expect she was baptised elsewhere or they just didn't record it. Very frustrating when I have that link to Martha in the 1758 will!
I really appreciate your help in looking them up, thank you.
Kelly.
-
I've just ordered the Bicester district CD which includes Charlton and Oddington. Hopefully she can be found in one of those! Thanks :)
-
Kelly
That's a great idea ordering the CD which is exactly what I am looking at. In fact I have the 37 of the 42 items in the OFHS PR collection.
Another way to look for Martha's baptism is to ask the Oxfordshire Family History Society who have a county wide baptism index and see if she is in there.
They may levy a very small charge for such a look up, but if she was baptised in Oxfordshire and it was recorded, they are so thorough, she will be on that list.
If they find her and she is not on the CD you have ordered come back here?
Nigel
-
I do see a baptism of Gabriel s o John and Elizabeth on 26 Sept 1735 again in St Marys and this could well be the one you are looking for.
There are a couple of potential Johns but again different parents to your quest but the years fit so perhaps the will you have refers to another family / other families as well as Robert & Mary?
I wonder if Mary and Elizabeth were sisters who married brothers?
Nigel
-
I'll see what comes along and maybe contact the OFHS if I need to follow on. And then what who knows :o I may also need to entertain the possibility that she came from across the border in Bucks as her husband did, as his family crossed over into Marsh Gibbon.
Good point, I hadn't thought of the possibility of two sisters marrying brothers. As John Hale only mentions his daughter Mary, I had made the assumption that all the grandchildren named Honour were hers, but of course that might not be the case.
Thanks, I really appreciate your advice and help.
Kelly.
-
Hi, I realise this is an old thread but I've just seen it! I'm a relative of Nigel, my mum was a Kirtland. I've been taking a look as I'm also interested in Martha, she was my 5 x Great Grandmother. Just been checking things and Mary and John Hale did have 2 daughters, Mary and Elizabeth born in 1703. I also wondered if she married an "Honour"! That I haven't found out yet.The list of Grandchildren is interesting, were all their surnames Honour? I've found definate children of Robert Honour and Mary Hale to be Robert 1833, Thomas 1834, Marlin 1736, Elizabeth 1738, John 1742 and Mary 1745. So that's still missing Ann, Martha and Gabriel. I've found your tree on ancestry....is the will listed there? I saw a document but it listed items but as far as I could tell, no names. I have a tree on ancestry, if I can find yours again, I'll send you a request. Meanwhile, I'll keep looking, best wishes, Trudie
-
Okay, so have found Mary Jessett! She married Gabriel Honour (perhaps these are the missing Gabriel and Mary Jessett?) Gabriel is Robert Honour's(Mary Hales) nephew. Robert had numerous siblings but poss most had either died or married before 1758. I notice that John Honour, Roberts brother and John being the father of Gabriel, has also passed away in 1758 poss just before John Hale, prompting him to leave him something in the will. But just looking at the birth dates of the children they all seem quite old. Mary Jessett was born 1731 and Gabriel Honour 1735 not sure yet of the marriage date but their first child was born in 1782 making him 47 and her 51, that can't be right.I'll look again. Also Gabriels mother is Mary Harris, I have 2 female Harris also marrying Kirtlands, poss a link to those aswell!
Just checked and that is correct, Mary Jessett married Gabriel Honour in 1761. So at the time of the will she would still have been Jessett! The marriage is correct and under all the births listed between 1761 and 1782, the first child born to a Gabriel and Mary is Charlotte in 1782, but what doesn't make sense is how are they married for 21 years BEFORE they start having children. unless this is a different Gabriel and Mary and our Gabriel and Mary didn't have any children.
-
Hi Trudie,
I think there is a lot more work to be done before we have a clear picture of this family. I'm no closer to sorting them out. Still missing the crucial piece of information that is the baptism of Martha.
Gabriel born 1735 was a son of John Honour and Elizabeth. I'm not sure of the marriage of John and Elizabeth but there is one in 1729 to an Elizabeth Steptoe in Oxford. They also had Elizabeth 1732, Henry 1734, Benjamin 1737 and Burgess 1739. If their son Gabriel was the same Gabriel in the will of John Hale, why would the other children not be mentioned also?
Here is a link to the will of John Hale (1758): http://wills.oxfordshirefhs.org.uk/az/wtext/hale_010.html
Of his grandchildren, he names all of them with the surname Honour. Firstly he names Robert and Thomas (the eldest children of Robert and Mary). Then he goes on to divide everything else equally between his wife, his daughter Mary Honour, and grandsons Robert, Thomas and John (Honour). These are the only confirmed sons of Robert and Mary.
Then he names his well-beloved granddaughter Mary Jesset of Horton. I'm still not sure where she fits. Possibly a daughter of John Hale's other daughter Elizabeth born in 1703.
Lastly he gives to his grandchildren Marlin, Elizabeth, Mary, Ann, Martha and Gabriel (Honour).
When you look at the children of Robert and Mary, John Hale's grandchildren, in this will he has firstly named the male heirs, and then gone on to name female children but includes Gabriel at the end. I would assume he is a very young child to be left at the end like that, after the female grandchildren, who are listed in order of their age. (Ann's baptism is in the register, so only Martha and Gabriel are unaccounted for).
This still leaves the mystery of Martha who we know was born circa 1748 by her age at death (and this lines up with her husband's age), and a possible infant brother Gabriel born after her. Without baptisms everything is guesswork based on John Hale's will.
I think you are right that Gabriel who married Mary Jesset is the nephew of Robert, but he can't be the same Gabriel as in the will of John Hale, as he is not John Hale's grandson. I've not looked much into Gabriel and Mary so I am not sure about their children. It is impossible for them to have a child in 1782 so something is missing there. Gabriel and Mary were having children right up to 1802 (their last born was Martha so definitely a family connection somewhere). I see that a Gabriel Honour and Elizabeth had a child Elizabeth in Charlton in 1759. Perhaps there was also a child Gabriel, who is missing from the records? Or as you say, Gabriel and Mary (Jesset) had no children.
I'll look through all of this some more but this is where I am at for now, as it currently makes the most sense.
Great to make contact with you.
Kells.
-
Hi, great, thanks for the link to the will. Extremely complicated, I think the tiny village of Charlton-on Otmoor was just full of our ancestors! I think looking at the scrap piece of paper infront of me that Mary Jessett who married Gabriel(Robert Honour's nephew) is the Mary Jessett referred to in the will, although not yet married to Gabriel, possibly she was a "favourite" of the late John Hale, which is why he refers to her as a grandchild even though she isn't. I'll look again and see if there are any other Mary Jessetts but it seems to be quite an usual surname. Perhaps there are 2 Gabriel Honours born in 1735? The one I found had parents John Honour and Mary Harris but the one you mention is different with completely different siblings. I agree with you in that if that is the Mary Jessettt and Gabriel why give to them and not the other siblings.....again more questions that answers! I'll double check now the two Gabriels, check Mary Jessett. Also on your tree you have Elizabeth Hale as dying in 1728 so that threw me for a minute as to why she was mentioned in the will, so that must be incorrect. It's so confusing with so many people being born at roughly the same time in the same small village with the same surnames and similar names. So I'll check out those things....also the problem is that with the earlier births they don't list the mothers maiden name so it's not so clear and in the earlier marriage certificates they only mention the bride and groom, so again making it more difficult to pin down which it may be especially if you have 2 Marys marrying 2 Gabriels at roughly same time in the same village, plus they just give their names, no date of births, so again, trickier! Ok, where do I fit in, well like I mentioned Martha Honour and John Kirtland were my 5 x Great grandparents, then their son Thomas 1781 and Mary Lloyd, my 4x then their son William Kirtland 1806 and Sophia Yates my 3x, then their son John 1847 and Frances King my 2x then their son George William John 1875 and Laura Blackmore my Great Grandparents then their son William Edward 1907 my Grandfather then my mother Nellie Ann Kirtland! Where do you fit in? Whereabouts are you in Australia? I have alot of relatives there, my cousin Mark lives in Melbourne. I have a link to the Geelong area through another branch of my tree, my maternal grannie was a "Miles" some of them emigrated in the 1800s to Australia and helped set up Newtown and Geelong and William Wallace Miles was even the mayor for a while, Newtown and Chilwell, I believe. Well I'll crack on with looking at those quieries!
-
I was offline for 2 years, when this thread was started. So obviously I missed it.
I have Honnors & Kirtlands in my tree, although quite well removed. But I think they are connected with yours.
Richard Kirtland, c1706.Islip, Oxon,(son of John & Mary), married Elizabeth Lock, 1737 @ Charlton On Otmoor. (Recorded/Transcribed as Richard CUTLAND).
Their son, Henry Kirtland, 1749. Ch.On.Otmoor), married Ann Arris, 1777, Ch.On.Ot.
Their daughter, Mary Kirtland, 1780,Ch.On.Ot. Married Thomas Poulton, 1814, @ St Mary's, Alyesbury, Bucks. She dies 1860 @ Stoke Mandeville, Bucks.
~~~~~~~~------------
Thomas Honnor, c1726,(unknown), dies 1783 @ Great Missenden, Bucks. He marries Martha King(b1730, Bucknell, Oxon), 1753 @ Hedgerley, Bucks.
Marriage License says, Thomas Honnor(aged 27, of Great Missenden), to Martha King(aged 23, of Bucknell, Oxfordshire)
This couple had 2 Martha Honnors.......one b.1754, dies 1756 aged 2 years old @ Great Missenden, the other was baptised 1762 @ Great Missenden.
They also had a son, Henry Honnor 1756. Gt.Missenden, who married a Elizabeth Hicks, 18 Apr 1779 @ Steeple Claydon, Buckinghamshire.
Marriage License says...Henry Honnor, aged 22 of Great Missenden. Elizabeth Hicks, aged 28 of Steeple Claydon.
No baptism in Great Missenden for Thomas Honnor. ???
~~~~~~~~---------------------
There are 6 variations of the name Honnor in the BucksFHS. Gt.Missenden Parish Transcripts.
Honer, Honner, Honnor, Honor, Honour & Honnour. Also, Horner may be a possibility.
Marriages for Honner(and variations) start at 1601 in Great Missenden. Baptisms start in 1604, and burials start in 1604.
At present, I have no subs for Ancestry, nor any other FH web site that requires payment. So I can't help much really. I also have some Oxfordshire Pr's on CD, including the 3 for the Bicester District.
Not sure if this helps or hinders, your search for your Martha Honnor. ???
Steve.
-
Hello Steve,
There is probably a connection there, we have Islip connections also. Interesting to pursue those links some time, maybe when I get my head around the Charlton folk! I'm not sure of any Bucks links with them yet.
Hello Trudie,
I have gone through the original registers again and tried to put families together in groups.
I don't think John Hale would have named anyone as a grand-daughter without their being one, so I'm still not sure where Mary Jessett fits. There are 3 Mary Jesset's baptised in Charlton. One in 1713, one in 1722 (both were to John and Anne of Fencot), and one in 1732 (to John & Elizabeth). Also a Mary Jessop (OR Jesset as this alias often appears for one branch) in 1731 to Robert & Anne.
The only Gabriel I found in the Charlton registers was the son of John & Elizabeth, born 1735 (apart from the son of Robert & Margaret born in 1726 who died in 1732).
I do now wonder if there was another Gabriel born to Robert and Margaret, but there is no record of it. Only because there is a probate from 1781 for Gabriel Honour, in which he names his wife Mary, and his sister Ann Messenger (wife of Thomas). Robert also had a sister Ann. The dates kind of work out well too.
I have not found a Gabriel Honour and Mary Harris in Charlton within the time frame I was considering.
I am a descendant of William Kirtland born in 1784. He became a gentleman's coachman in London and worked for the Earl of Bradford. After his wife Eleanor died he left for Australia to be with his daughter Mary (Miller) who emigrated here with her husband just after they married in 1847. Not long after William got here he became ill and passed away in 1854. So he is buried here in Adelaide where I live. Luckily for us he brought some old certificates with him (of his own baptism, his marriage etc.) and these are in the archives.
I think this family will cause perpetual frustration with no clear record for Martha. :-\
Kells.
-
Thinking about this further... Gabriel Honour with probate in 1781 made that will in 1770. He would have had to have been an adult so born at least before 1752. It is not inconceivable that he could be a child of Robert and Mary (Hale). Either that or he is the one born 1735. Or there is another one who is unaccounted for!
Scrap what I said about there maybe being another Gabriel for Robert and Margaret. Robert died in 1730!
-
Gabriel Honour who had children from 1782 was married to Mary Margetts in 1781. This Gabriel would be the son of William and Mary baptised 21 Oct 1753. William and Mary also had a daughter Marlin in 1759. Such distinctive names in this family so they are closely related, this William must be the brother of Robert (husband of Mary Hale).
-
Hi Nifty Nigel here :)
My mother was a Kirtland. Some of the above is very familiar to me.
In the early days of me starting fr things seemed straight forward. After twenty years research it seems to have got very complicated.
I was staggered by the amount of research that must have gone into compiling this
https://oxford-consultants.tripod.com/horton_cum_studley.htm
I had discovered that one of my line of Kirtlands worked in a big house at Horton cum Studley and was trying to find out more.
-
Hello Steve,
There is probably a connection there, we have Islip connections also. Interesting to pursue those links some time, maybe when I get my head around the Charlton folk! I'm not sure of any Bucks links with them yet.
Hello Kelly
You wrote:
‘ I am a descendant of William Kirtland born in 1784. He became a gentleman's coachman in London and worked for the Earl of Bradford. After his wife Eleanor died he left for Australia to be with his daughter Mary (Miller) who emigrated here with her husband just after they married in 1847. Not long after William got here he became ill and passed away in 1854. So he is buried here in Adelaide where I live. Luckily for us he brought some old certificates with him (of his own baptism, his marriage etc.) and these are in the archives.
I think this family will cause perpetual frustration with no clear record for Martha. :-\
Kells.
I am reasonably sure that I am also related to William Kirtland and would interested to know if you have found anything significant in the documentation about his employer in London.
My late uncle had a cartridge that I have some details and pictures that I think could have somehow become the property of George Henry Kirtland of Windsor who died in 1956. I think that between us there may be a lot to discover and would like to know what Kells thinks about it.